Promotion and Relegation!

[tri_colours]

Neither Fifita or Holmes would ever consider going to a fledgling club. No matter how many dollars were thrown at them

If he was offered considerably more money than the Canterbury offer, why wouldn't he consider the offer from the promoted team ? and he would be more than likely to accept it !!!

 

[Perth Red]

If he was offered considerably more money than the Canterbury offer, why wouldn't he consider the offer from the promoted team ? and he would be more than likely to accept it !!!

again you are showing you don’t know what actually happens. Signing for a club who has just won promotion is a massive gamble as they will overwhelming favourites to be relegated the next season. So Holmes comes on the market in a October. Perth have won promotion and offer him a 3 year deal for $1mill. Dogs offer him $900k for three years. Given it is very likely Perth will/could be relegated after one year and his contract be torn up which do you think he would take?

 

[Perth Red]

Is there any reason why a player couldn't consider his options before signning? If that is to difficult they nearly all have managers to guide them.

That was just a portion of the players,I hear Valentine Holmes and David Fiffita are also looking for new clubs.

Also Super League's salary cap is only 2m pound. Meaning 2nd tier sides would already be strong. It wouldn't take a great deal to make the promoted sides one of the strongest sides in the NRL.

nonsense, an nrl club would likely have at least double the salary of a second division club. IF the nrl could raise enough revenue for second division to have a $5mill grant/cap they’d be doing an amazing job! similar to SL where the SL clubs have double the cap of championship, hence why every promoted club except Hull Kr (who managed to keep bulk of the SL team due to strong fanbase and sponsor day owner putting in for one year) has gone back down in recent years. Leigh, widnes, London. Be interesting to see if Toronto can buck the trend and build a competitive team but it isn’t looking good at this point.

 

[tri_colours]

nonsense, an nrl club would likely have at least double the salary of a second division club. IF the nrl could raise enough revenue for second division to have a $5mill grant/cap they’d be doing an amazing job! similar to SL where the SL clubs have double the cap of championship, hence why every promoted club except Hull Kr (who managed to keep bulk of the SL team due to strong fanbase and sponsor day owner putting in for one year) has gone back down in recent years. Leigh, widnes, London. Be interesting to see if Toronto can buck the trend and build a competitive team but it isn’t looking good at this point.

Perth Red, how much would a NRL team have in its Salary cap ? 9.5m - minus the current roster.

Maybe a few might move on but the answer NOT A GREAT DEAL. - 500k maybe

How much would a Tier 2 team, 0ne that has just been promoted to the NRL have in its Salary cap?

9.5m - minus there old cap of 4m , upgrade a few contracts and your left with over $4m .

So who could make the best offer? somebody with $500k left in there salary cap or someone with $4m left in there salary cap?

 

[tri_colours]

again you are showing you don’t know what actually happens. Signing for a club who has just won promotion is a massive gamble as they will overwhelming favourites to be relegated the next season. So Holmes comes on the market in a October. Perth have won promotion and offer him a 3 year deal for $1mill. Dogs offer him $900k for three years. Given it is very likely Perth will/could be relegated after one year and his contract be torn up which do you think he would take?

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Once it was clear that Holmes was returning to League the tier 2 team could of made an offer. The offer however would be on the proviso that they get promoted (it would also mean that they had a 9.5m salary cap) . So if they fail to get promoted then that contract becomes a worthless scrap of paper. However if they were promoted the extra salary cap space that they now have would mean that they could now buy many of the best players on the market and have one of the best rosters in the NRL . And if they did happen to be relegated, any big name players would soon be picked up by other NRL side. The newly promoted NRL side would probably pick many of these players up.

 

[Perth Red]

Perth Red, how much would a NRL team have in its Salary cap ? 9.5m - minus the current roster.

Maybe a few might move on but the answer NOT A GREAT DEAL. - 500k maybe

How much would a Tier 2 team, 0ne that has just been promoted to the NRL have in its Salary cap?

9.5m - minus there old cap of 4m , upgrade a few contracts and your left with over $4m .

So who could make the best offer? somebody with $500k left in there salary cap or someone with $4m left in there salary cap?

it doesn’t matter how much they’ve got as there aren’t quality players sitting around off contract in October just waiting to be picked up by the promoted club. Players Are sorting out the following season contracts in April-June.

 

[Perth Red]

\

Once it was clear that Holmes was returning to League the tier 2 team could of made an offer. The offer however would be on the proviso that they get promoted (it would also mean that they had a 9.5m salary cap) . So if they fail to get promoted then that contract becomes a worthless scrap of paper. However if they were promoted the extra salary cap space that they now have would mean that they could now buy many of the best players on the market and have one of the best rosters in the NRL . And if they did happen to be relegated, any big name players would soon be picked up by other NRL side. The newly promoted NRL side would probably pick many of these players up.

you really don’t understand how it works do you? . This simply doesn’t happen. Take a look at any, and I mean any, promoted SL squad and show me any big name signing they made. It just doesn’t happen no matter how much you might want it to lol. You might get the occasional Holmes situation of a player out of the game deciding late in the year to return but that is a very rare event. Any promoted club would b relying mostly 9n the squad they have plus any rejects they can pick up. Hence why in every sport with p&r you get yo yo clubs.

 

[tri_colours]

it doesn’t matter how much they’ve got as there aren’t quality players sitting around off contract in October just waiting to be picked up by the promoted club. Players Are sorting out the following season contracts in April-June.

Of course it matters. Stop arguing against Reality. 500k allow you 1 maybe 2 average Players, If you have $4m, in your salary cap you buy many of the best players on the markets. Set yourself up with a roster as good ,maybe even better than any of the top NRL !

We have been through all this before - Provisional contracts.

and a dozen top line player come off contract or sign after june!

 

[tri_colours]

you really don’t understand how it works do you? . This simply doesn’t happen. Take a look at any, and I mean any, promoted SL squad and show me any big name signing they made. It just doesn’t happen no matter how much you might want it to lol. You might get the occasional Holmes situation of a player out of the game deciding late in the year to return but that is a very rare event. Any promoted club would b relying mostly 9n the squad they have plus any rejects they can pick up. Hence why in every sport with p&r you get yo yo clubs.

We have been through all this before - Provisional contracts.

and a dozen top line player who come off contract or sign after June!

If you offer someone an extra 400k a year, than in more then in 99.9 % of the time they will take it - that's how contracts work!

 

[Captain Apollo]

Players will rarely sign provisions contracts. Why? Lack of security. Further, if they did, and the 2nd tier club wasn't promoted, odds are the remaining clubs would not have much salary cap room left to sign them. That's just the individual player perspective. I dare say the NRLPA would not approve the concept of provisional contracts.

Further players do want money, but few will take the big $ to play at a struggling club. Money is not the only factor in determining what club they sign for.

 

[tri_colours]

Players will rarely sign provisions contracts. Why? Lack of security. Further, if they did, and the 2nd tier club wasn't promoted, odds are the remaining clubs would not have much salary cap room left to sign them. That's just the individual player perspective. I dare say the NRLPA would not approve the concept of provisional contracts.

Further players do want money, but few will take the big $ to play at a struggling club. Money is not the only factor in determining what club they sign for.

I cant agree with you. You offer somebody more and they will usually take it. You offer some one 200k more and they will definitely take it or at least wait and see how things pan out in tier2, regardless of the risk.

They don't have to commit to any contract. they merely have to wait. Wait until the result of the Promotion Game is known. If they don't get promoted they simply resign with there club or sign with somebody else. in the next 4 or 5 months. And if salary cap space is the problem you could always sign a back-ended contract. If players like Valentine Holmes or David Fifita come on the market you can bet they will find the money for them.

If such a system did exist, It would solve a lot more problems than it created. Giving sides like Perth, PNG, Brisbane 2 etc. a pathway to the NRL and would improve the over all quality and standard of the NRL.

Players would soon adjust. Signing contract in October would be come the norm.

 

[Perth Red]

It doesn’t happen now, it won’t happen in the future. Players want security, no top player is sitting around until October to sign a contract.

 

[Captain Apollo]

I cant agree with you. You offer somebody more and they will usually take it. You offer some one 200k more and they will definitely take it or at least wait and see how things pan out in tier2, regardless of the risk.

They don't have to commit to any contract. they merely have to wait. Wait until the result of the Promotion Game is known. If they don't get promoted they simply resign with there club or sign with somebody else. in the next 4 or 5 months. And if salary cap space is the problem you could always sign a back-ended contract. If players like Valentine Holmes or David Fifita come on the market you can bet they will find the money for them.

If such a system did exist, It would solve a lot more problems than it created. Giving sides like Perth, PNG, Brisbane 2 etc. a pathway to the NRL and would improve the over all quality and standard of the NRL.

Players would soon adjust. Signing contract in October would be come the norm.

If you think players will take more money to play with a struggling club, then you have not been paying attention. Things like what position they play, who the coach is, how successful the club is and whether they will be competitive for a premiership are also factors. If they weren't, then players would always take the big money - but fact is they don't. I mean seriously would a player rather sign a $1 million a season contract to play with the Titans or a $600,000 a season deal to play with Souths, Canberra, Roosters or the Storm? Most would take option b.

As to back ended contracts, the NRL have just about outlawed them due to the salary cap muck it landed many clubs in. Hence that is not gonna happen.

Again you ignore realities when it comes to player retention by clubs. They don't wait till the end of the season to finalise their rosters, and the players are happy with that system also. Hence your proposal that players would wait till after a promotion/relegation match to finalise contracts ignores current realities that neither the clubs nor the players will allow to change.

You can disagree all you want, but I am pointing out current realities. I'm not making this up.

 

[siv]

It won’t work here as any club that gets promoted won’t have the player talent to perform. They will get relegated the next year, without a doubt

Successful promoted clubs do so on the back of strong junior feeder structure

To stop the yo-yo effect - you cannot have auto promotion

I would for a start promote 2 teams and create a 18 team NRL comp with national RG

Top 2 teams promoted come from a 6 way 5 round robin series. Top 2 QLD Cup Top 2 Revamped NSW-RMC Cup Top 2 NZ Cup

Soft promotion-relegation would come via a Promotion playoff 4 team series. Wooden spooners, Winners QLD Cup, Winners NSW Cup, Winners NZ Cup at wooden spooner home ground

You have to be good enough to be promoted each year.

Where all NRL and Tier 2 clubs play in the same U16 U18 and U20 junior comps

But growing the Tier 2 club grants to being 50% of NRL clubs is the challenge. Today these clubs operate on around $1 mil of revenue and This would need to grow to $4-5 mil, before you could apply Parachute payments

 

[tri_colours]

It doesn’t happen now, it won’t happen in the future. Players want security, no top player is sitting around until October to sign a contract.

that's impressive logic.

the 40/20 rule , The corner post rule, the six tackle rule etc Things change , otherwise what's the point of these other ten threads on expansion - rationalizing, expanding there all just ideas - ideas for the future being tossed around.

Any big name players are pretty much guaranteed an offer . That's there security!

Hargraves, David fifita, Valentime Holmes are all being chased and these are the players that proviso contracts would be aimed at. Any other big named that comes on the market will be picked up, regardless of wether the side up for promotion, gets through or not. Tom & Jake T??????h could be moving on - there all after them - they will all be playing again next year though.

Fair to good players would be the only ones that would struggle(as they do every time they come off contract) but these are not the ones that are going to be the getting these 'proviso' contact offers.

We both know there will be at least 6, probably a dozen key signings/resignings made in the period end of NRL season 2019 - start of season 2020!

 

[Captain Apollo]

that's impressive logic.

the 40/20 rule , The corner post rule, the six tackle rule etc Things change , otherwise what's the point of these other ten threads on expansion - rationalizing, expanding there all just ideas - ideas for the future being tossed around.

Any big name players are pretty much guaranteed an offer . That's there security!

Hargraves, David fifita, Valentime Holmes are all being chased and these are the players that proviso contracts would be aimed at. Any other big named that comes on the market will be picked up, regardless of wether the side up for promotion, gets through or not. Tom & Jake T??????h could be moving on - there all after them - they will all be playing again next year though.

Fair to good players would be the only ones that would struggle(as they do every time they come off contract) but these are not the ones that are going to be the getting these 'proviso' contact offers.

We both know there will be at least 6, probably a dozen signings/resignings made in the period end of NRL season 2019 - start of season 2020!

Hargreaves, Fifita and the Trbojevic brothers are signed till the end of 2020. I doubt they would wait till the end of 2020 to sign for the current season.

If you think money alone will dictate where they sign then you really do not know any of them.

 

[tri_colours]

If you think players will take more money to play with a struggling club, then you have not been paying attention. Things like what position they play, who the coach is, how successful the club is and whether they will be competitive for a premiership are also factors. If they weren't, then players would always take the big money - but fact is they don't. I mean seriously would a player rather sign a $1 million a season contract to play with the Titans or a $600,000 a season deal to play with Souths, Canberra, Roosters or the Storm? Most would take option b.

As to back ended contracts, the NRL have just about outlawed them due to the salary cap muck it landed many clubs in. Hence that is not gonna happen.

Again you ignore realities when it comes to player retention by clubs. They don't wait till the end of the season to finalise their rosters, and the players are happy with that system also. Hence your proposal that players would wait till after a promotion/relegation match to finalise contracts ignores current realities that neither the clubs nor the players will allow to change.





You can disagree all you want, but I am pointing out current realities. I'm not making this up.

How are they a struggling club though? to get to where they are they would of had to have won the 2nd tier competion. they would of then had to beat the Gold Coast in a play off, and now from October 1 2019 till March 15 2020 they have almost $5milllion worth of salary cap to spend. And when they finish on there spending spree they will have as good a rosters or better than any of the other NRL sides.

I doubt Any club would ever need a back ended contract. If they did however, they are legal and coud be used if necessary.

And yes, if we are game is going to go ahead something has to change, just as it has done so in the past.

 

[Captain Apollo]

How are they a struggling club though? to get to where they are they would of had to have won the 2nd tier competion. they would of then had to beat the Gold Coast in a play off, and now from October 1 2019 till March 15 2020 they have almost $5milllion worth of salary cap to spend. And when they finish on there spending spree they will have as good a rosters or better than any of the other NRL sides.

I doubt Any club would ever need a back ended contract. If they did however, they are legal and coud be used if necessary.

And yes, if we are game is going to go ahead something has to change, just as it has done so in the past.

Being successful in a second tier competition, and being competitive if not a premiership contender in the top tier are two different things. Show me concrete examples in sports which currently have promotion and relegation where a promoted team have, in their first year of promotion been title contenders or won the title in the top tier?

Again you keep thinking that just because they have $5 million in cap room there will be all this talent lying around come 1 November (as contracts usually expire on 31 October) that will make them a premiership force. Sorry but you are not living in the real world, and you are not coming up with any possible solutions to what I and others are pointing out. Just saying "if we are game is going to go ahead something has to change" is not a valid answer why it is why people are responding like they are. You are the proponent, so you need to address these issues. By not doing so, it harms the credibility of your proposition.

 

[tri_colours]

Being successful in a second tier competition, and being competitive if not a premiership in the top tier are two different things. Show me concrete examples in sports which currently have promotion and relegation where a promoted team have, in their first year of promotion been title contenders or won the title in the top tier?

Again you keep thinking that just because they have $5 million in cap room there will be all this talent lying around come 1 November (as contracts usually expire on 31 October) that will make them a premiership force. Sorry but you are not living in the real world, and you are not coming up with any possible solutions to what I and others are pointing out. Just saying "if we are game is going to go ahead something has to change" is not a valid answer why it is why people are responding like they are. You are the proponent, so you need to address these issues. By not doing so, it harms the credibility of your proposition.

There obviously a pretty good team they won a competion. A competition with a 3-4 $million dollar salary cap. the top tier English Super League salary cap isn't a lot more. So they already have a pretty good roster. But because they have been promoted they now have $4million more dollars to spend. They could afford half a dozen elite players. Players still off contract, players who were previously sent proviso contacts or contacts for people like Holmes & Fiffita who will come up.

How am I going to give proof or an example of something that hasn't yet happend. It like being asked, 70years to show proof of the 6 tackle rule.

Mark Gasnier signed with St George, a few years back only months out from the Semis. I realise that situation might of been a one-off but it shows how rules aren't set in stone.

.

 

[tri_colours]

Hargreaves, Fifita and the Trbojevic brothers are signed till the end of 2020. I doubt they would wait till the end of 2020 to sign for the current season.

If you think money alone will dictate where they sign then you really do not know any of them.

They wont be the first player to seek a release.

'Jared Waerea-Hargreaves (born 20 January 1989) is a professional rugby league footballer who signed with the Penrith Panthers in 2019 for the 2020 and 2021 seasons and played as a prop for the Sydney Roosters in the NRL and New Zealand at international level.'