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Questions about Rugby League in Australia

RLref

Juniors
Messages
9
Hi all,
This may be slightly off topic/in the wrong forum, however wasn't sure where to put this. I'm currently writing my dissertation and am writing about how rival leagues affect business and competition policy. So am focusing on Super League war, and Rugby League/Union in the UK both during the split as well as 70's/80's with competition policy.

My few questions regard specifically rugby league in Australia:

1. I understand that RL/RU split in the UK, but would anyone be able to enlighten me as to why RL has grown faster in Australia?

2. Is there a "class divide" within Australia RL/RU as the UK?

3. I've tried to find monetary statistics on both RL and RU in Australia and can't seem to find them, would anyone have any leads on where to find this?

Thanks
RLref
 

georgesnmith

Juniors
Messages
1,781
1. unlike in england, the game's governing body here was much more aggressive towards RU when it was established.

in 1908 we set up identical clubs to union, and signed up their best player Dally Messenger, which gave league a massive boost. In 1909 we then got 2nd team of wallabies to join our game which put league in the ascendancy.

the nail in the coffin was the first GB Lions tour here in 1911 i think which was a roaring success. by then league was established as the dominant sport in nsw and queensland and has never been headed.

at the time of our establishment union owned a ground worth around 10,000 pounds and was drawing massive income from international tours. Club crowds could go as high as 20,000.

Within 3 years of our introduction all that was gone, union was basically amateur and broke

Soccer and AFL were also established in sydney prior to the establishment of rugby league

2. yes. Rugby league is not played in just about all private schools here, only union. league as well lags in terms of corporate sponsorship, especially from the finance sector given its size.

3. Rough figures : ALRC $315 million, ARU $90 million

Top NRL clubs spend around $20 - 25 million

Each club gets a grant from the NRL around $6.5 million rising to around $8 million in two years.

the average NRL crowd is around 16,000

http://www.afr.com/p/lifestyle/sport/arlc_set_to_report_surplus_at_first_uJRPaDSGKgsuSdFVJVRxtM

try and get hold of the ARLCs annual report on the game. all the financials are in there. they are impressive
 
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POPEYE

Coach
Messages
11,397
If Rugby League was as prominent in England as it is in New Guinea, how well are they going in the Qld Cup by the way, Australia would be struggling against the Poms. No rocket science, it's all about horses for courses and the conditions the contest is played in
 

Lee Eel

Juniors
Messages
8
Try and find Sean Fagan.

He has written a number of books on RU/RL and used to have a smashing website RL1908 which has been discontinued because our friends at a certain newspaper used to pilfer its contents and pass it off as its own info when talking about the history of the game.
 

Canard

Immortal
Messages
35,189
If Rugby League was as prominent in England as it is in New Guinea, how well are they going in the Qld Cup by the way, Australia would be struggling against the Poms. No rocket science, it's all about horses for courses and the conditions the contest is played in

PNG are 3 wins from 3
 

Bulldog Force

Referee
Messages
20,619
1. I understand that RL/RU split in the UK, but would anyone be able to enlighten me as to why RL has grown faster in Australia?
Because there are more teams spread across the densely populated cities on the East Coast. Rugby Union is played more at a state level rather than individual clubs and districts within those states.
 

madunit

Super Moderator
Staff member
Messages
62,358
1. I understand that RL/RU split in the UK, but would anyone be able to enlighten me as to why RL has grown faster in Australia?
RL's birth and growth in Australia was due to a massive number of disgruntled players who were being denied any financial support when they suffered from injuries which prevented them from working/playing for long periods of time. In 1901, the NSWRU decided to cancel its insurance fund, which covered their players for injury during games, forcing clubs to take out insurance instead. Because the RL movement in Australia was essentially, player driven, it meant that RL was seen as a better option to ensure the financial security of themselves/their families if they got injured. Players weren't paid all that much to play league, but they were financially supported if injured.

Rugby League's birth in Australia was at a time when Sydney had an influx of socially aware politicians, many of whom aligned themselves with Rugby League, most notably future Prime Minister Billy Hughes, who was the Glebe Club Patron in their first few seasons, Henry Hoyle, the first president of the NSWRL, Edward larkin, the first full time secretary of the NSWRL, and many others who served on committees for the individual clubs. Because of these socially aware politicians, they saw RL as a fresh, modern, intelligent concept (some aligned themselves with the game to improve their own image as well, such was the fervour behind the birth of RL), which consequently made the RU look archaic.

2. Is there a "class divide" within Australia RL/RU as the UK?
To start with, definitely. Amateurism was a very important thing to athletes, especially in 1908-09, when Rugby became an Olympic sport, and consequently, saw Australia win the Gold medal in 1908 Games. It was also seen as being for the pure athlete, who was motivated by success, victory etc. Professionalism was seen as a very weak, poorer option, because athletes wouldn't be performing at their best at risk of getting injured and thus, not earning money from the game. RU persisted with this attitude, despite secretly paying players over many decades, until it turned professional in the 1990's.

Because Rugby League appealed to the working class players who had not come from financially strong homes, it became the game of the working class. It provided them with financial security which was a huge thing given so many weren't earning huge salaries as it was. Rugby Union soon became the game for the rich and private schooled children, in what could be perceived as an attempt to appear superior to RL because it had people from wealthier and better educated backgrounds. To this day, there are still many RU fans who deem their game is so much better, despite it having changed very little over the years when compared to Rugby League.

Nowadays the divide isn't so prominent, purely because RL has surpassed RU by quite a significant amount that it's essentially pointless.

3. I've tried to find monetary statistics on both RL and RU in Australia and can't seem to find them, would anyone have any leads on where to find this?

Thanks
RLref
Can't help you with 3 sorry.
 

madunit

Super Moderator
Staff member
Messages
62,358
Because there are more teams spread across the densely populated cities on the East Coast. Rugby Union is played more at a state level rather than individual clubs and districts within those states.

wrong.

RU has plenty of competitions and teams at a club level.

The difference is RL's club level games are of a higher quality and have an excessively higher audience and cashflow than RU's.

RU tries to counter this by being involved in the Super whatever number they are up to now.
 

Bulldog Force

Referee
Messages
20,619
wrong.

RU has plenty of competitions and teams at a club level.

The difference is RL's club level games are of a higher quality and have an excessively higher audience and cashflow than RU's.

RU tries to counter this by being involved in the Super whatever number they are up to now.
15 - this is why they now just call the code Super Rugby.
 

madunit

Super Moderator
Staff member
Messages
62,358
1. unlike in england, the game's governing body here was much more aggressive towards RU when it was established.
This was only after RL was born and only for a brief period of time. RL was born from disgruntled players, fed up with not being given any allowances when severely injured, preventing them from earning an income, while RU officials got paid excessively large wages. RL was a vehicle for them to even the playing field. They weren't after big salaries, they were after fairness.

in 1908 we set up identical clubs to union, and signed up their best player Dally Messenger, which gave league a massive boost. In 1909 we then got 2nd team of wallabies to join our game which put league in the ascendancy.
We didn't set them up. Each RU club held meetings and those who wanted to play league broke away. In most cases, almost entire RU teams from 1907 switched to league. This was enough to see RU struggle, which it certainly did in 1908.

The 1909 Wallabies coup was indeed sneaky and a direct attack on RU by RL, in a desperate attempt to remain alive after the financial debacle that was the 1908-09 Kangaroo tour to England. The 1909 season ended with all debts repaid and cash in the bank. Essentially that was the nail in the coffin. RU struggled to compete with RL in Sydney ever since then.

2. yes. Rugby league is not played in just about all private schools here, only union. league as well lags in terms of corporate sponsorship, especially from the finance sector given its size.
Not entirely accurrate. By 1910, the NSWRL, via Edward Larkin predominantly, got Rugby League introduced into Catholic Schools, where it has remained a strong sport choice since.

From 1920 to 1937, Sydney University had their own team in the NSWRL top grade competition. They were allowed to also retain their amateur status as they weren't paid.

Rugby League is played in quite a few private schools around Australia, especially as interest in RU continued to dwindle.
 

georgesnmith

Juniors
Messages
1,781
1. all the clubs we set up were brand new ...established 1908

2. if the NSWRL wasnt so aggressive vs MRU league couldve failed. in 1909 the NSWRL was almost broke. it was deliberate actions that made league the dominant sport

3. RU in 1909 was still doing quite well, club crowds exceeded those in league

4. the signing of the wallabies wasnt underhanded. the MRU was happy to play certain players under the belt, league did it honestly. in a stroke it decimated union

5. sydney uni werent even allowed to play home games there for ages
 
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madunit

Super Moderator
Staff member
Messages
62,358
1. all the clubs we set up were brand new ...established 1908

2. if the NSWRL wasnt so aggressive vs MRU league couldve failed. in 1909 the NSWRL was almost broke. it was deliberate actions that made league the dominant sport

3. RU in 1909 was still doing quite well, club crowds exceeded those in league

4. the signing of the wallabies wasnt underhanded. the MRU was happy to play certain players under the belt, league did it honestly. in a stroke it decimated union

5. sydney uni werent even allowed to play home games there for ages

1. Obviously they were new, but they were largely made up of the first grade RU players from the respective clubs.

2. I agree and suggested as such.

3. it wasn't improving at the rate it was pre-league.

4.It was underhanded. The NSWRL did it knowing that the players would be banned from RU if they were paid. And sure enough that happened. If the RU were happy to pay the players, then they would've paid these men to stay, considering one of them was their test captain (Chris McKivat). While they did pay players, it wasn't a practice they were employing with a lot of players, only a select few 'favourites'
 

georgesnmith

Juniors
Messages
1,781
1. Obviously they were new, but they were largely made up of the first grade RU players from the respective clubs.

2. I agree and suggested as such.

3. it wasn't improving at the rate it was pre-league.

4.It was underhanded. The NSWRL did it knowing that the players would be banned from RU if they were paid. And sure enough that happened. If the RU were happy to pay the players, then they would've paid these men to stay, considering one of them was their test captain (Chris McKivat). While they did pay players, it wasn't a practice they were employing with a lot of players, only a select few 'favourites'

technically it wasnt even the league who was responsible for signing the wallabies, they just benefitted because union banned them

union offered to ignore any acts of professionalism before 1910 allowing players like messenger to come back

union got exactly what it deserved for its hypocrisy.

professional football was coming to sydney, the choice was whether it would be league, VFL or soccer. it could easily have been VFL.

the key difference between us and england was we took them on. The RFL in england didnt take union on. many rugby areas were lost to soccer in the north. many in england thought the split was temporary. had they been more agressive then im sure they would have a much bigger reach in the north, especially in the larger cities.

although having a strong united soccer code unlike here wouldnt have helped.
 

madunit

Super Moderator
Staff member
Messages
62,358
technically it wasn't even the league who was responsible for signing the wallabies, they just benefitted because union banned them
It wasn't the NSWRL officially chasing the Wallabies, but it was board members who did it secretly. The NSWRL President at the time quit his job when he found out about it.

The NSWRL knew if they could get the Wallabies to play a professional game and they received money, that the RU would ban them, making them exclusively RL players. The RU archaic rules were exploited and used against them, to their own detriment.
 

oikee

Juniors
Messages
1,973
The only thing holding the game back was money to grow,.
Rugby union being a game played by the upper classes always had people in high places to help their growth.
Rugby league is slowly gaining ground and cash is now flowing into the game.
We also now have commissioners and Ceo's who have skills to match the codes worth.

I think rugby league will grow as well and better than AFL grew over the last 10 years.

Once they sort the Sydney clubs out and grow the game into other cities and countries, Perth, Brisbane and NZ, as well as PNG who are now part of the Queensland cup, our future is now.

Joining forces with touch footy, creating a super bowl final between Qld Cup and NSW cup, are two of the best changes to the game so far.
I think once Sydney clubs are sorted out, and expansion for Brisbane and Perth, along with a second NZ team, will really cement the code.

You cant leave areas that involve 2-3-4 million residents for a Sydney team that is killing crowd averages and turning away TV viewers.
Once Sydney is sorted, the game will thrive.
2 teams need to merge or re-locate, and for the sake of millions, that is going to happen. Only blind freddie would think otherwise, and it;s time blind freddie was put to rest.

I think we should be putting the past behind us,. Talk about the future.
Nothing worse than digging up the past, you just become bitter.
 
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betcats

Referee
Messages
23,731
The only thing holding the game back was money to grow,.
Rugby union being a game played by the upper classes always had people in high places to help their growth.
Rugby league is slowly gaining ground and cash is now flowing into the game.
We also now have commissioners and Ceo's who have skills to match the codes worth.

I think rugby league will grow as well and better than AFL grew over the last 10 years.

Once they sort the Sydney clubs out and grow the game into other cities and countries, Perth, Brisbane and NZ, as well as PNG who are now part of the Queensland cup, our future is now.

Joining forces with touch footy, creating a super bowl final between Qld Cup and NSW cup, are two of the best changes to the game so far.
I think once Sydney clubs are sorted out, and expansion for Brisbane and Perth, along with a second NZ team, will really cement the code.

You cant leave areas that involve 2-3-4 million residents for a Sydney team that is killing crowd averages and turning away TV viewers.
Once Sydney is sorted, the game will thrive.
2 teams need to merge or re-locate, and for the sake of millions, that is going to happen. Only blind freddie would think otherwise, and it;s time blind freddie was put to rest.

I think we should be putting the past behind us,. Talk about the future.
Nothing worse than digging up the past, you just become bitter.

Did you read the OP? he is asking this for a project or something he is doing.

Anyway if no one has said it yet, welcome to the forums Oikee, I can see you will do well here.
 

oikee

Juniors
Messages
1,973
Did you read the OP? he is asking this for a project or something he is doing.

Anyway if no one has said it yet, welcome to the forums Oikee, I can see you will do well here.

Thanks, yes i read it, and i dont want to bore everyone with what we already know. He can look up plenty of stuff on the internet , i was just adding some food for thought.

When the next guy asks these questions in 10 years time we will be saying our best growth has been the last ten years, because cash was holding the game back.

Someone mentioned Sean Fagan. The history has been written.
The future yet to be told. Food for thought.

I will add that the super league war put us back 20 years, and now we are fighting to get back to where the super league war was taking us.

Our history is a brick wall, and people running into it, like the NFL helmet testing program.
 

magpie4ever

First Grade
Messages
9,992
Thanks, yes i read it, and i dont want to bore everyone with what we already know. He can look up plenty of stuff on the internet , i was just adding some food for thought.

When the next guy asks these questions in 10 years time we will be saying our best growth has been the last ten years, because cash was holding the game back.

Someone mentioned Sean Fagan. The history has been written.
The future yet to be told. Food for thought.

I will add that the super league war put us back 20 years, and now we are fighting to get back to where the super league war was taking us.

Our history is a brick wall, and people running into it, like the NFL helmet testing program.

Oh please oikee tell us your plans for the Sydney based teams - oh supreme one - than f**k off.:lol:
 

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