What's new
The Front Row Forums

Register a free account today to become a member of the world's largest Rugby League discussion forum! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Race lines up NRL's quick men

AlwaysGreen

Post Whore
Messages
50,437
This probably isn't the right forum for it, but I strongly disagree with you. It's a proven fact that certain races have different genetic advantages over others. People of African descent are much more likely to have more fast-twitch fibres and heavier bone mass which is great for running but not so good for swimming (for example). Rugby league alone has proven time and time again that some of the most athletic players are from islander backgrounds, however, how many of them play in the halves? There is a good reason for that as well.

My point about the lack of 'heart' has some merit if you do some research into it, although I do concede that there could be a fair debate about whether it's genetic or cultural.
Try stormfront, that's where all the other nutters go and talk crap. Or maybe walk down Redfern or Moree spouting this s#!t, we'll see how well your pathetic little theories hold up there.
 

Noa

First Grade
Messages
9,029
Try stormfront, that's where all the other nutters go and talk crap. Or maybe walk down Redfern or Moree spouting this s#!t, we'll see how well your pathetic little theories hold up there.
Well being caucasion he's obviously got the ticker for it, lol.
 

Manu Vatuvei

Coach
Messages
17,221
So it's established:

It is acceptable to assert the inferiority of light-skinned peoples in certain areas

It is racist to assert the inferiority of dark-skinned peoples in certain areas

Fair enough then
 

westie

Bench
Messages
3,936
This discussion on the qualities of different races came up on the English forum the other day. Disappointingly, it also ended in most people having a cry about racism (against darker coloured peoples of course). The strange thing was, as with this discussion, that most of the talk was reasoned examples of how and why players of West Indian, Polynesian etc heritage were physically superior to "white" players.

How that is racist, I'll never understand. If people can't have a reasoned discussion about the qualities of different races as football players, particularly position specific - they need to go have a good look at where they're coming from. It's undeniable that different races have different genetic qualities, both advantageous and not, with reference to Rugby League. It's also undeniable that different cultures have different mindsets and attitudes.

Recognising this isn't a bad thing, and is in no way derogatory. It should be celebrated and bringing all these different abilities and weaknesses together should be encouraged.

Shall we look at examples?

Souths have a larger proportion of darker skinned players. Polynesian and Aboriginal. Common sense, derived from years of watching footy (or even a few matches) would tell anyone on here that that teams with a proliferation of polynesians are more likely to play flair footy. When it goes right, it goes really right. The SCG match against Wests for example. Over a season? The Warriors in 2002. Great footy to watch.

But when it goes wrong, it goes really wrong. Take the Dragons match in the last round, or previous and subsequent Warriors' seasons.

The same can be said for said of teams stacked heavily with "white" players. (Just for the picky amongst you, i'm most certainly generalising specific races here, due to a lack of in-depth knowledge on an important matter). Take the Dragons. Both this year and last year, they played very consistent footy... but it was boring as sh*t. When it came to the crunch, they were embarrassed by Parramatta - specifically guys like Mateo, Hayne etc. Dark skinned blokes playing exciting, high-risk footy. Once they got going, the Dragons couldn't go with them.

It's been discussed that, to generalise, Polynesians, Indigenous Australians and West Indians (the dark skinned athletes most commonly associated with RL) mostly play flair football, based on a high skill level and dominant, explosive physical characteristics. This often has a high error rate, but is impossible to stop when it's working.

"White" players are often more structured, have more physical stamina and seem more pre-disposed to racking up high work rates.

There are obviously exceptions to the rule - Jeremy Smith plays simple football and works hard. While Gasnier often flits around waiting for a single moment to exploit his supreme physical ability.

I believe one of the next innovations in Rugby League will be structuring football teams to have the correct mixture of all these qualities. In fact, I'm sure the Warriors are already doing it.

In my opinion, and disagree with me if you will, but this sort of thing would be a successful formula.

At fullback - a white athlete with very strong physical capabilities. Pick your 10 best fullbacks and have a look at them. Hayne is obviously a great talent, but has been roundly criticised by every one for a lack of consistency and commitment in a crucial position.

Wing - Black athlete. Pick your favourite dominant wingers. I'd wager names like Uate, Vatuvei, Tuiaki, Folau, Hayne etc would all be near the top of every one's list as players to bring to their club.

Centre - Seems a 50/50. Gasnier, Lyon, Hodges, Inglis etc are all near the top. This is a position that varies, and so it seems, does the abilities and qualities of the top players.

Five-Eighth/Half - I suppose we first have to take into account that these two positions are becoming increasingly ambiguous. So lets just split them and not argue about numbers on backs. I like to think that successful sides will have one controlling influence. A settled player who organises and is probably first receiver. Thinking of these players, it's mostly white players who come to mind. Kimmorley, Cronk, Campese, Walsh. Discrepancies might be Prince, but there's many who argue he's played more like a 5/8th for most of his career.

The flair player in the halves is often Black. So that's Benji, Barba, Soward, (possibly Prince), Sandow, Sutton (see what's wrong there?) etc. All superlative players on their day. Any mixture of the first list and second list would probably have a side in or around the top 4. 2 from each list is looking at structural problems.

2nd Row/Lock - Again, a varied position. A mixture here is probably best. The Warriors have undeniably gone down this route. Again, generalising, white guys often seem to head the list of hard working guys who do the dirty work. I think Hindmarsh, Tongue, Luck, Mannering, Johnson, Stagg. Quality flair players are dark. Mateo, SBW, Pritchard etc. Too many workers, and you'll struggle for points and intimidation. Too much flair, and you're on the back foot.

Props - same thing. Once Souths lost their white front rowers to injury, their season went to sh*t. The Roosters seem to have the best combination. Big tough hombres of all races taking beatings against the Tigers for an hour, with white guys like Ryles really getting in there. Once the tide turned some of their darker guys just wound up and dealt out the punishment.

---

Every one is different, even within races and cultures. Ours is a multi-cultural/racial sport, due to it's working class roots wherever it is played. We should be celebrating that, not calling racism. There's not a Rugby League fan out there who doesn't love to see Big Manu rampaging down the wing, the SBW of old dealing out the hits, Mateo running with the ball in one hand, Benji stepping, Barba scoring, Merrit running, Folau jumping, Inglis and Hayne flying. Recent superstars of British football have included Offiah, Robinson and Hanley. The French have Fakir and Bosc. Gene and Aizue for PNG provided some spectacular entertainment and emotion at RLWC08.

And that's not to forget all kinds of white blokes who do a great job. Ellis, Burgess and Morley have all come out from England and wowed us with their aggressive, skilful forward play. Hindy, Stagg and Tongue continue to amaze with their commitment to the cause. Gasnier and J Morris are a pleasure to watch on their feet. Joey, Freddy, Locky were all legends.

We all have different qualities - the football teams who bring everyone together properly will be successful over one or the other. If that's racism, then I've missed the point all these years.
 

Schiltzenberger

Juniors
Messages
416
Turner plays Union for the Wallabies. He's a pretty big figure.

The other guy was a f**king joke though.
Yeah, I heard them say Turner played for the Wallabies in the lead up to the race. Not that he is a big figure though, I've heard plenty of names of Wallabies players but never heard of Turner until about a week before this race.
The other guy played for bloody Eastwood, that's who I was talking about. It was pathetic to bring him in, he is a nobody.
 

RugbyHighlights

Juniors
Messages
1,214
So it's established:

It is acceptable to assert the inferiority of light-skinned peoples in certain areas

It is racist to assert the inferiority of dark-skinned peoples in certain areas

Fair enough then

No. It's acceptable to state scientific truths. It's racist to assert hogwash.
 

Perth Tiger

Bench
Messages
3,217
So it's established:

It is acceptable to assert the inferiority of light-skinned peoples in certain areas

It is racist to assert the inferiority of dark-skinned peoples in certain areas

Fair enough then

No it is acceptable to say different races may have different physical characterisitics that may or may not be benefical to a particular situation like sport.

It is absolute bullsh*t to say Aboriginal people have no heart because they are Aboriginal
 

Perth Tiger

Bench
Messages
3,217
Westie that is one long quote :)

I don't think any one has disputed the fact that different races have different physical characterisitics that give them different strenghts in areas like sport.

What most people are having a go at is someone claiming that it is a genetic trait of Aboriginal people to 'not have any heart'
 

DeeJ

Bench
Messages
3,119
Good post westie. I won't quote you again because it will make the page too long.
 

RugbyHighlights

Juniors
Messages
1,214
This discussion on the qualities of different races came up on the English forum the other day. Disappointingly, it also ended in most people having a cry about racism (against darker coloured peoples of course). The strange thing was, as with this discussion, that most of the talk was reasoned examples of how and why players of West Indian, Polynesian etc heritage were physically superior to "white" players.

How that is racist, I'll never understand. If people can't have a reasoned discussion about the qualities of different races as football players, particularly position specific - they need to go have a good look at where they're coming from. It's undeniable that different races have different genetic qualities, both advantageous and not, with reference to Rugby League. It's also undeniable that different cultures have different mindsets and attitudes.

Recognising this isn't a bad thing, and is in no way derogatory. It should be celebrated and bringing all these different abilities and weaknesses together should be encouraged.

Shall we look at examples?

Souths have a larger proportion of darker skinned players. Polynesian and Aboriginal. Common sense, derived from years of watching footy (or even a few matches) would tell anyone on here that that teams with a proliferation of polynesians are more likely to play flair footy. When it goes right, it goes really right. The SCG match against Wests for example. Over a season? The Warriors in 2002. Great footy to watch.

But when it goes wrong, it goes really wrong. Take the Dragons match in the last round, or previous and subsequent Warriors' seasons.

The same can be said for said of teams stacked heavily with "white" players. (Just for the picky amongst you, i'm most certainly generalising specific races here, due to a lack of in-depth knowledge on an important matter). Take the Dragons. Both this year and last year, they played very consistent footy... but it was boring as sh*t. When it came to the crunch, they were embarrassed by Parramatta - specifically guys like Mateo, Hayne etc. Dark skinned blokes playing exciting, high-risk footy. Once they got going, the Dragons couldn't go with them.

It's been discussed that, to generalise, Polynesians, Indigenous Australians and West Indians (the dark skinned athletes most commonly associated with RL) mostly play flair football, based on a high skill level and dominant, explosive physical characteristics. This often has a high error rate, but is impossible to stop when it's working.

"White" players are often more structured, have more physical stamina and seem more pre-disposed to racking up high work rates.

There are obviously exceptions to the rule - Jeremy Smith plays simple football and works hard. While Gasnier often flits around waiting for a single moment to exploit his supreme physical ability.

I believe one of the next innovations in Rugby League will be structuring football teams to have the correct mixture of all these qualities. In fact, I'm sure the Warriors are already doing it.

In my opinion, and disagree with me if you will, but this sort of thing would be a successful formula.

At fullback - a white athlete with very strong physical capabilities. Pick your 10 best fullbacks and have a look at them. Hayne is obviously a great talent, but has been roundly criticised by every one for a lack of consistency and commitment in a crucial position.

Wing - Black athlete. Pick your favourite dominant wingers. I'd wager names like Uate, Vatuvei, Tuiaki, Folau, Hayne etc would all be near the top of every one's list as players to bring to their club.

Centre - Seems a 50/50. Gasnier, Lyon, Hodges, Inglis etc are all near the top. This is a position that varies, and so it seems, does the abilities and qualities of the top players.

Five-Eighth/Half - I suppose we first have to take into account that these two positions are becoming increasingly ambiguous. So lets just split them and not argue about numbers on backs. I like to think that successful sides will have one controlling influence. A settled player who organises and is probably first receiver. Thinking of these players, it's mostly white players who come to mind. Kimmorley, Cronk, Campese, Walsh. Discrepancies might be Prince, but there's many who argue he's played more like a 5/8th for most of his career.

The flair player in the halves is often Black. So that's Benji, Barba, Soward, (possibly Prince), Sandow, Sutton (see what's wrong there?) etc. All superlative players on their day. Any mixture of the first list and second list would probably have a side in or around the top 4. 2 from each list is looking at structural problems.

2nd Row/Lock - Again, a varied position. A mixture here is probably best. The Warriors have undeniably gone down this route. Again, generalising, white guys often seem to head the list of hard working guys who do the dirty work. I think Hindmarsh, Tongue, Luck, Mannering, Johnson, Stagg. Quality flair players are dark. Mateo, SBW, Pritchard etc. Too many workers, and you'll struggle for points and intimidation. Too much flair, and you're on the back foot.

Props - same thing. Once Souths lost their white front rowers to injury, their season went to sh*t. The Roosters seem to have the best combination. Big tough hombres of all races taking beatings against the Tigers for an hour, with white guys like Ryles really getting in there. Once the tide turned some of their darker guys just wound up and dealt out the punishment.

---

Every one is different, even within races and cultures. Ours is a multi-cultural/racial sport, due to it's working class roots wherever it is played. We should be celebrating that, not calling racism. There's not a Rugby League fan out there who doesn't love to see Big Manu rampaging down the wing, the SBW of old dealing out the hits, Mateo running with the ball in one hand, Benji stepping, Barba scoring, Merrit running, Folau jumping, Inglis and Hayne flying. Recent superstars of British football have included Offiah, Robinson and Hanley. The French have Fakir and Bosc. Gene and Aizue for PNG provided some spectacular entertainment and emotion at RLWC08.

And that's not to forget all kinds of white blokes who do a great job. Ellis, Burgess and Morley have all come out from England and wowed us with their aggressive, skilful forward play. Hindy, Stagg and Tongue continue to amaze with their commitment to the cause. Gasnier and J Morris are a pleasure to watch on their feet. Joey, Freddy, Locky were all legends.

We all have different qualities - the football teams who bring everyone together properly will be successful over one or the other. If that's racism, then I've missed the point all these years.

You make the same mistake as the rest of the scientific noobs though. You keep looking at skin tone. When its absolutely irrelivent to athletic ability.

You're subconciously making it about black - white. It's not. Look at South American athletes. The entire Asian continent. They're pretty tan. Yet athletically aren't held in much of a high regard. Atleast in contact sports.

Africans happen to be black. They could be bright yellow and they'd have the same athletic prowess they have now.

You're assosciating skin colour with athletic ability. Which is why in Australia there's a ton of people who think Aboriginals are some sort of great athletes. When the reality is nobody outside of Australia gives them a second thought, ever. They're not spectaculary strong or fast. They have flair and play the game in a great way. That's bred through culture. Go to France, you'll see white guys running around in much the same manner.

You also listed a ton of Polynesians while asserting they were black. Which they most definately aren't. The only people down there who are black are Aboriginals, and arguebly Fijians.

Samoans, Tongans and Maoris are not black. This isn't the 1800s.:lol:

I'm sure everyone here, myself included appreciates the message. But you're still falling into that racist line of thinking, for good or bad
 

RugbyHighlights

Juniors
Messages
1,214
Yeah, I heard them say Turner played for the Wallabies in the lead up to the race. Not that he is a big figure though, I've heard plenty of names of Wallabies players but never heard of Turner until about a week before this race.
The other guy played for bloody Eastwood, that's who I was talking about. It was pathetic to bring him in, he is a nobody.

Oh no, I mean he's known within rugby circles. Outside of that, meh. But most rugby fans know Turner
 

DeeJ

Bench
Messages
3,119
You also listed a ton of Polynesians while asserting they were black. Which they most definately aren't. The only people down there who are black are Aboriginals, and arguebly Fijians.

Samoans, Tongans and Maoris are not black. This isn't the 1800s.:lol:

They think they are.
 

aussies1st

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
28,154
That was a letdown, should have done the sprint at the end of the season with no finals about. That would get a proper field. Maybe have a similar structure to athletics by having heats, semis then finals so that we have the best 8 racing.
 

Manu Vatuvei

Coach
Messages
17,221
Inglis went walkabout halfway through the race.

Only because he was getting smoked

I'm just gonna throw it out there, but I reckon that apart from being overweight and giving up, Inglis might've come last because the other guys are faster than him :shock:
 
Messages
2,137
It's logical for rugby union to have the fastest guys. All their wingers do is wait, wait, wait to get the ball three times in a game and sprint with it. That's a very specialist sprinting position. But in league, there's loads of defense, hit-ups, and generally more involvement. The body needs to have more stamina, and also more thought in the mind. Much less specialized for sprinting than in union.
 

RugbyHighlights

Juniors
Messages
1,214
It's logical for rugby union to have the fastest guys. All their wingers do is wait, wait, wait to get the ball three times in a game and sprint with it. That's a very specialist sprinting position. But in league, there's loads of defense, hit-ups, and generally more involvement. The body needs to have more stamina, and also more thought in the mind. Much less specialized for sprinting than in union.

I disagree. I don't see how defense, hit-ups or general involvement would slow a player in anyway.

If anything having to carry less weight and doing more work should work in their favour. They're fitter.

Ngwenya, Habana, Chavhanga, Ojo, Monye, Sackey... See the trend? All Africans

If they converted to League I doubt they'd lose any of their speed.
 

Manu Vatuvei

Coach
Messages
17,221
I don't think there's that much difference between the fastest league wingers and the fastest union wingers at all, Union just fronted up with two of their genuine speedsters (even resorting to picking a club nuffy based purely on speed) while league managed to leave out pretty much all the genuine contenders to "league's fastest man".
 

m0nty

Juniors
Messages
633
westie, I agree with RugbyHighlights' criticism of your post. I would also point out that your frequent assertions that whites work harder than non-whites is blatant, unvarnished racism.

You said this in setting up your thesis:

I believe one of the next innovations in Rugby League will be structuring football teams to have the correct mixture of all these qualities.

What's the "innovation" you're talking about? Are you seriously saying that you think the Warriors would not get a player like Gasnier, for instance, because they want only black dudes on the wing? That they would reject Hayne because they have set aside the fullback position for a white-skinned gentleman? That they would reject one of Prince and Marshall in the halves because they need one gubba to fulfil their racial quota? Are you daft? :crazy::crazy::crazy:
 

Latest posts

Top