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Race lines up NRL's quick men

caylo

Bench
Messages
4,870
I don't think there's that much difference between the fastest league wingers and the fastest union wingers at all, Union just fronted up with two of their genuine speedsters (even resorting to picking a club nuffy based purely on speed) while league managed to leave out pretty much all the genuine contenders to "league's fastest man".

I agree because Hayne won it and he isnt even the fastest player at parramatta. Humble and Grothe(injured) are quicker then him and so is our under twenties plyer Sio. Uate, Gorden, Jennings (at full fitness) and a few other would have gone quicker aswell.

I also doubt that Inglis ran at his fastest, he is much quicker then mid 12sec mark, might have been another reason such as fitness or even a bad start. G.I may not have won but I'm sure he could run mid 11s.
 

Manu Vatuvei

Coach
Messages
17,221
How unfit can Inglis be? His season only ended a week ago! He looked the same size as he has all year. That's his playing weight these days (f*ck knows why)
 

Noa

First Grade
Messages
9,029
So it's established:

It is acceptable to assert the inferiority of light-skinned peoples in certain areas

It is racist to assert the inferiority of dark-skinned peoples in certain areas

Fair enough then

Its a fact that certain people have genetic traits that dispose them to be better at certain physical things.

However things like intelligence, heart etc is nurture rather then nature. Anyone who tries to argue otherwise is a peanut brain imbecile.
 

westie

Bench
Messages
3,936
westie, I agree with RugbyHighlights' criticism of your post. I would also point out that your frequent assertions that whites work harder than non-whites is blatant, unvarnished racism.

You said this in setting up your thesis:



What's the "innovation" you're talking about? Are you seriously saying that you think the Warriors would not get a player like Gasnier, for instance, because they want only black dudes on the wing? That they would reject Hayne because they have set aside the fullback position for a white-skinned gentleman? That they would reject one of Prince and Marshall in the halves because they need one gubba to fulfil their racial quota? Are you daft? :crazy::crazy::crazy:


As I said multiple times during the post to avoid having this argument, I generalised with skin colours to avoid writing Polynesian, Aboriginal Australian, Torres Straight Islander, West Indian, Melanesian or Anglo, Caucasian etc etc etc every few lines. It's obvious that within black and white there are many different groups with equally differing qualities.

PNGians tend to be stockier and "harder", Melanesians more slender and quicker, Polys bigger etc. I'll say it again - it was a generalisation for ease of typing and reading.

---

With regards to the Warriors set up. My point is, they seem to have moved away from the flairy Polynesian play in the halves and second row. Two of my assertions.

Again, if you read the post properly, you'll see I specifically mentioned that my suggestions were not set in stone and indeed up for discussion. A discussion which would be far far more interesting and valuable than erroneously nit picking. Brent Tate would suggest the Warriors are very open to "White" players in the backs. Though why they would play Gasnier on the wing is beyond me. I also find it remarkable that you would attempt to use Gasnier as an example against me when I specifically mentioned during my post that he was a remarkable player that tended to bend the "rules".

Please, read the post properly and without prejudice before replying. I'd also rather you commented on matters of football rather than take this down the route you clearly want to.
 

m0nty

Juniors
Messages
633
As I said multiple times during the post to avoid having this argument, I generalised with skin colours to avoid writing Polynesian, Aboriginal Australian, Torres Straight Islander, West Indian, Melanesian or Anglo, Caucasian etc etc etc every few lines. It's obvious that within black and white there are many different groups with equally differing qualities.

PNGians tend to be stockier and "harder", Melanesians more slender and quicker, Polys bigger etc. I'll say it again - it was a generalisation for ease of typing and reading.

---

With regards to the Warriors set up. My point is, they seem to have moved away from the flairy Polynesian play in the halves and second row. Two of my assertions.

Again, if you read the post properly, you'll see I specifically mentioned that my suggestions were not set in stone and indeed up for discussion. A discussion which would be far far more interesting and valuable than erroneously nit picking. Brent Tate would suggest the Warriors are very open to "White" players in the backs. Though why they would play Gasnier on the wing is beyond me. I also find it remarkable that you would attempt to use Gasnier as an example against me when I specifically mentioned during my post that he was a remarkable player that tended to bend the "rules".

Please, read the post properly and without prejudice before replying. I'd also rather you commented on matters of football rather than take this down the route you clearly want to.

First, you didn't answer my question, which must be answered if you want to have a serious discussion about this: What is the nature of this "innovation" you talked about? Is it that you think teams are going to pick based on racial quotas in future, according to position? That is your implication all through your posts. We have to know what is is you're proposing, in straightforward language, before we can discuss its merits.

Second, you can't weasel out of it by saying that all you're doing is bringing up the subject for discussion and you don't have a specific proposal in mind. That is classic p*ssweak passive-aggressive bullsh*t, my friend. If you want to make racist statements, do so and be judged. Don't try to obfuscate your racism behind pseudo-intellectualism. You are not an accredited academic in the fields of cultural studies or sports biomechanics, you're just some random rooster making racist statements about how non-whites are lazy, uncontrollable animals with no heart.

If there's something more disgusting than a racist, it's a racist who tries to cause racism in others through weasel words.
 

westie

Bench
Messages
3,936
First, you didn't answer my question, which must be answered if you want to have a serious discussion about this: What is the nature of this "innovation" you talked about? Is it that you think teams are going to pick based on racial quotas in future, according to position? That is your implication all through your posts. We have to know what is is you're proposing, in straightforward language, before we can discuss its merits.

Second, you can't weasel out of it by saying that all you're doing is bringing up the subject for discussion and you don't have a specific proposal in mind. That is classic p*ssweak passive-aggressive bullsh*t, my friend. If you want to make racist statements, do so and be judged. Don't try to obfuscate your racism behind pseudo-intellectualism. You are not an accredited academic in the fields of cultural studies or sports biomechanics, you're just some random rooster making racist statements about how non-whites are lazy, uncontrollable animals with no heart.

If there's something more disgusting than a racist, it's a racist who tries to cause racism in others through weasel words.

You're embarrassing yourself.
 

magpie_man

Juniors
Messages
1,973
Its a fact that certain people have genetic traits that dispose them to be better at certain physical things.

However things like intelligence, heart etc is nurture rather then nature. Anyone who tries to argue otherwise is a peanut brain imbecile.

so you're suggesting that genetic traits have no bearing whatsoever on psychology; they only influence physiology?
 

westie

Bench
Messages
3,936
So you've got no comeback at all, nothing in the tank, no way of defending yourself? Pathetic.

No, I'm refusing to be drawn into a pre-school slanging match with a small-minded, prejudiced simpleton. I made it perfectly clear in the initial post that there was no derogatory feelings toward any culture so that I wouldn't have to put up with self-important do-gooders. Thankfully most people were clever enough to understand that.

The thing I find saddest is that you either have no confidence what-so-ever in yourself or your people, far less even, than I've demonstrated. OR you are, and this would be sadder again, the ultimate racist. That's the one chimes into reasonable discussion to fly the flag for those you believe to be less than yourself. Most people on here have been able to discuss the merits of all cultures and races as equals. You, it seems feel the need to divide. Place peoples on different levels. That's wrong, yet your righteousness won't let you admit it, nor even consider it.

I feel sorry for you.

That's the last I'll say to you. Hopefully more people can discuss the footballing a social aspects of this topic as it has many implications. NRL success, international success and indeed eligibility, immigrant inclusion for the benefit of both the people and RL.
 

hutch

First Grade
Messages
6,810
This discussion on the qualities of different races came up on the English forum the other day. Disappointingly, it also ended in most people having a cry about racism (against darker coloured peoples of course). The strange thing was, as with this discussion, that most of the talk was reasoned examples of how and why players of West Indian, Polynesian etc heritage were physically superior to "white" players.

How that is racist, I'll never understand. If people can't have a reasoned discussion about the qualities of different races as football players, particularly position specific - they need to go have a good look at where they're coming from. It's undeniable that different races have different genetic qualities, both advantageous and not, with reference to Rugby League. It's also undeniable that different cultures have different mindsets and attitudes.

Recognising this isn't a bad thing, and is in no way derogatory. It should be celebrated and bringing all these different abilities and weaknesses together should be encouraged.

Shall we look at examples?

Souths have a larger proportion of darker skinned players. Polynesian and Aboriginal. Common sense, derived from years of watching footy (or even a few matches) would tell anyone on here that that teams with a proliferation of polynesians are more likely to play flair footy. When it goes right, it goes really right. The SCG match against Wests for example. Over a season? The Warriors in 2002. Great footy to watch.

But when it goes wrong, it goes really wrong. Take the Dragons match in the last round, or previous and subsequent Warriors' seasons.

The same can be said for said of teams stacked heavily with "white" players. (Just for the picky amongst you, i'm most certainly generalising specific races here, due to a lack of in-depth knowledge on an important matter). Take the Dragons. Both this year and last year, they played very consistent footy... but it was boring as sh*t. When it came to the crunch, they were embarrassed by Parramatta - specifically guys like Mateo, Hayne etc. Dark skinned blokes playing exciting, high-risk footy. Once they got going, the Dragons couldn't go with them.

It's been discussed that, to generalise, Polynesians, Indigenous Australians and West Indians (the dark skinned athletes most commonly associated with RL) mostly play flair football, based on a high skill level and dominant, explosive physical characteristics. This often has a high error rate, but is impossible to stop when it's working.

"White" players are often more structured, have more physical stamina and seem more pre-disposed to racking up high work rates.

There are obviously exceptions to the rule - Jeremy Smith plays simple football and works hard. While Gasnier often flits around waiting for a single moment to exploit his supreme physical ability.

I believe one of the next innovations in Rugby League will be structuring football teams to have the correct mixture of all these qualities. In fact, I'm sure the Warriors are already doing it.

In my opinion, and disagree with me if you will, but this sort of thing would be a successful formula.

At fullback - a white athlete with very strong physical capabilities. Pick your 10 best fullbacks and have a look at them. Hayne is obviously a great talent, but has been roundly criticised by every one for a lack of consistency and commitment in a crucial position.

Wing - Black athlete. Pick your favourite dominant wingers. I'd wager names like Uate, Vatuvei, Tuiaki, Folau, Hayne etc would all be near the top of every one's list as players to bring to their club.

Centre - Seems a 50/50. Gasnier, Lyon, Hodges, Inglis etc are all near the top. This is a position that varies, and so it seems, does the abilities and qualities of the top players.

Five-Eighth/Half - I suppose we first have to take into account that these two positions are becoming increasingly ambiguous. So lets just split them and not argue about numbers on backs. I like to think that successful sides will have one controlling influence. A settled player who organises and is probably first receiver. Thinking of these players, it's mostly white players who come to mind. Kimmorley, Cronk, Campese, Walsh. Discrepancies might be Prince, but there's many who argue he's played more like a 5/8th for most of his career.

The flair player in the halves is often Black. So that's Benji, Barba, Soward, (possibly Prince), Sandow, Sutton (see what's wrong there?) etc. All superlative players on their day. Any mixture of the first list and second list would probably have a side in or around the top 4. 2 from each list is looking at structural problems.

2nd Row/Lock - Again, a varied position. A mixture here is probably best. The Warriors have undeniably gone down this route. Again, generalising, white guys often seem to head the list of hard working guys who do the dirty work. I think Hindmarsh, Tongue, Luck, Mannering, Johnson, Stagg. Quality flair players are dark. Mateo, SBW, Pritchard etc. Too many workers, and you'll struggle for points and intimidation. Too much flair, and you're on the back foot.

Props - same thing. Once Souths lost their white front rowers to injury, their season went to sh*t. The Roosters seem to have the best combination. Big tough hombres of all races taking beatings against the Tigers for an hour, with white guys like Ryles really getting in there. Once the tide turned some of their darker guys just wound up and dealt out the punishment.

---

Every one is different, even within races and cultures. Ours is a multi-cultural/racial sport, due to it's working class roots wherever it is played. We should be celebrating that, not calling racism. There's not a Rugby League fan out there who doesn't love to see Big Manu rampaging down the wing, the SBW of old dealing out the hits, Mateo running with the ball in one hand, Benji stepping, Barba scoring, Merrit running, Folau jumping, Inglis and Hayne flying. Recent superstars of British football have included Offiah, Robinson and Hanley. The French have Fakir and Bosc. Gene and Aizue for PNG provided some spectacular entertainment and emotion at RLWC08.

And that's not to forget all kinds of white blokes who do a great job. Ellis, Burgess and Morley have all come out from England and wowed us with their aggressive, skilful forward play. Hindy, Stagg and Tongue continue to amaze with their commitment to the cause. Gasnier and J Morris are a pleasure to watch on their feet. Joey, Freddy, Locky were all legends.

We all have different qualities - the football teams who bring everyone together properly will be successful over one or the other. If that's racism, then I've missed the point all these years.

players such as hayne, mateo, sbw are half 'white' and half 'black' though, for lack of better words.

to be honest, i think the colour and race of someone is overated a bit. some of the fastest players ive seen are 'white', some of the hardest working players ive seen are 'black', the biggest team in the comp from the last 5 years have been canberra who are mostly 'white', some of the quickest thinkers in the comp are 'black'. yes, i understand different genetic makeups have an effect on some aspects of the footballers in our comp, but i dont think a persons racial background has all that much of an effect on their footballing ability.

also, im wondering if anybody else can confirm this study. i remember seeing a study busting the myth that people with african heritage have more 'fast twitch fibres', but there are differences in the centre of gravity between racial groups. anyone heard of this?
 

undertaker

Coach
Messages
10,998
I didn't know Rabs Warren took out an AVO against his son. Since when have you known this? Also, I thought his son's name was Chris (former player at the Magpies and Reds in the 90s), not Mark.
 

westie

Bench
Messages
3,936
players such as hayne, mateo, sbw are half 'white' and half 'black' though, for lack of better words.

to be honest, i think the colour and race of someone is overated a bit. some of the fastest players ive seen are 'white', some of the hardest working players ive seen are 'black', the biggest team in the comp from the last 5 years have been canberra who are mostly 'white', some of the quickest thinkers in the comp are 'black'. yes, i understand different genetic makeups have an effect on some aspects of the footballers in our comp, but i dont think a persons racial background has all that much of an effect on their footballing ability.

also, im wondering if anybody else can confirm this study. i remember seeing a study busting the myth that people with african heritage have more 'fast twitch fibres', but there are differences in the centre of gravity between racial groups. anyone heard of this?

I'd be interested to see an actual study, if anyone can find it. Specifically with reference to speed, agility and power.

As I mentioned in that post, there's a lot of generalising there. But it's hard to deny certain guys are better at certain things. I'm clearly of the opinion that this sorta thing should be considered when balancing a footy side.
 

m0nty

Juniors
Messages
633
No, I'm refusing to be drawn into a pre-school slanging match with a small-minded, prejudiced simpleton. I made it perfectly clear in the initial post that there was no derogatory feelings toward any culture so that I wouldn't have to put up with self-important do-gooders. Thankfully most people were clever enough to understand that.

The thing I find saddest is that you either have no confidence what-so-ever in yourself or your people, far less even, than I've demonstrated. OR you are, and this would be sadder again, the ultimate racist. That's the one chimes into reasonable discussion to fly the flag for those you believe to be less than yourself. Most people on here have been able to discuss the merits of all cultures and races as equals. You, it seems feel the need to divide. Place peoples on different levels. That's wrong, yet your righteousness won't let you admit it, nor even consider it.

I feel sorry for you.

That's the last I'll say to you. Hopefully more people can discuss the footballing a social aspects of this topic as it has many implications. NRL success, international success and indeed eligibility, immigrant inclusion for the benefit of both the people and RL.

Let me guess, some of your best friends are Aboriginal?

What are you talking about with this confidence business? You give me two options: that I don't have enough confidence to back whites as being superior, or that I think whites are superior but I'm sticking up for non-whites to support the underdog. How about a third option: I'm not racist at all, and think all races are actually equal? Nice attempt at a straw man, but it's rather easily seen through.

It's laughable that you're trying to paint me as racist when you are the one pushing the argument that all races are different, enough so that you should build a rugby league team around racial differences. You would like to discuss racist theory without criticism. That is not going to happen.
 

Canard

Immortal
Messages
35,614
There's two things in the world I cant stand, people's intolerance of other cultures and the Dutch.
 

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