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RIP Amy

HevyDevy

Coach
Messages
17,146
A lot of Winehouse's music on the TV at the moment. For mine it's all pretty tepid stuff. She has a distinctive vocal tone for sure, but is that the same as having true "talent"? And if your "talent" is having vocal chords arranged a certain way, and otherwise being a complete ****, do you deserve such an outpouring when you die?

I agree re: her music, but disagree re: the outpouring.

Fact is, her death IS newsworthy. But the only outpouring is from her fans, who happen to be on the news because it's newsworthy. Most people are just acknowledging that it's a shame to see a 27-year-old die (which is true) and that it's a wasted talent (which is debatable).
 

Shorty

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
15,555
This is the case with this forum, a lot of people see things in black and white.
Drug abuse is not as simple as 'they made the choice to do it!!'.

These people deserve care not hatred, she was not normal amy operating under these circumstances...people that recover from drug abuse don't have people going 'You f**king deserve it, if you die you deserve it!'

I'm sure those that say she's untalented have heard 'Rehab' and that's it...well done!
 

Springs

First Grade
Messages
5,682
Oh I see, you get upset when people 'judge' you on an internet forum yet here you are judging others.

The ironing is delicious.

I ain't upset, I'm laughing at how someone knows that my friends 'aren't doing drugs'. I'm not judging you, or Fourex or anyone, I have no idea what lifestyle you live or what you do with it and I don't care, it's your decision. Yes, I've judged Winehouse because she made a decision to die. I don't support that. I don't like how all this attention is paid to her when there are others far worse off under circumstances that they did not put themselves under.

Yes, I think it's a shame that a young girl has died, and yes, it's horrible that it was because of drug addiction. Thus, I think drugs are BAD. Savvy?

And where did you get this idea that I'm Christian??
 

Mr Fourex

Bench
Messages
4,916
Yes, I think it's a shame that a young girl has died, and yes, it's horrible that it was because of drug addiction.

Well you should just leave it at that and forget about all the other sanctimonious horseshit you go on with...........

This is the case with this forum, a lot of people see things in black and white.
Drug abuse is not as simple as 'they made the choice to do it!!'.

These people deserve care not hatred, she was not normal amy operating under these circumstances...people that recover from drug abuse don't have people going 'You f**king deserve it, if you die you deserve it!'

I'm sure those that say she's untalented have heard 'Rehab' and that's it...well done!

I don't think anyone ever chooses to be a drug addict. Problem is unless you've been through it or have had close contact with it.......no-one understands just what it takes to kick the habit. Someone with access to infinite funds plus the people/industry she was involved with would make it extremely difficult. Her career choice ran parallel with substance abuse. It would have been staring her in the face at every corner she turned

and kicking a habit is one thing. Staying clean is a completely different ball game. It's something that stays with you for the rest of your life.

Her fans have the right to grieve.......as would any of us if someone we showed interest in suddenly passed away.

I thought she was a talented singer. It's a shame she'll only be remembered by most as the skinny crackwhore who had one hit song.

I thought "Back to Black" in it's entirety was an exceptional piece of work.......for that particular genre of music.
 

Springs

First Grade
Messages
5,682
I can say whatever I want mate it ain't hurting anyone.

Everyone has a choice to do what's right, by them and by others. She had a choice to use drugs or not, she also had a choice to get off them or not. A lot of people are faced with that choice and choose to not use drugs. No matter how much pressure there is you can always say no. Now I won't pretend to know how hard it must be to kick them once you're addicted, but if someone is 100% focused, willing, totally determined on getting off drugs they will. A lot of people underestimate their own willpower.

And this doesn't just include illegal substances. The recent deaths of Michael Jackson and Heath Ledger are just as terrible and unnecessary.
 

Mr Fourex

Bench
Messages
4,916
Everyone has a choice to do what's right, by them and by others. She had a choice to use drugs or not, she also had a choice to get off them or not. A lot of people are faced with that choice and choose to not use drugs. No matter how much pressure there is you can always say no. Now I won't pretend to know how hard it must be to kick them once you're addicted, but if someone is 100% focused, willing, totally determined on getting off drugs they will. A lot of people underestimate their own willpower.

By your own admission you have NFI what you're talking about.
 

Springs

First Grade
Messages
5,682
Oh okay so only someone who is addicted to drugs can comment on them. I'll leave it up to you Master of Knowledge and Wisdom.

For f**ks Sake.
 
Messages
17,822
A lot of Winehouse's music on the TV at the moment. For mine it's all pretty tepid stuff. She has a distinctive vocal tone for sure, but is that the same as having true "talent"? And if your "talent" is having vocal chords arranged a certain way, and otherwise being a complete ****, do you deserve such an outpouring when you die?

Agree...why such public mourning from media that would previously joke about the absurd behaviour of a drug addict and her antics on stage.
 

Mr Fourex

Bench
Messages
4,916
Oh okay so only someone who is addicted to drugs can comment on them. I'll leave it up to you Master of Knowledge and Wisdom.

For f**ks Sake.

Can you compare something you have done that would in your mind equal what you are assuming in this instance to be just a case of simple will power........?
 

doggie_4_life

Juniors
Messages
233
What's all the fuss about amy winehouse, it surely can't be to much of a shock that she's dead, im just surprised it didn't come sooner, it sounds horrible, but it's no great loss with her gone, just one less junkie out there
 

Shorty

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
15,555
I don't think people are really making a big deal? Just a simple RIP, and she at least deserves that..
If anything people have been able to get away with the bad taste jokes far more with her death.
 

Springs

First Grade
Messages
5,682
Can you compare something you have done that would in your mind equal what you are assuming in this instance to be just a case of simple will power........?

No I use examples of those who have kicked heroin and meth and whatever other drugs as proof drug addicts can get off them if they are WILLING. Sure they have help, but the more WILLING they are to get off drugs then the more chance they are of getting clean. If they aren't WILLING to get off drugs then they won't. If it's not willpower then what is it?

You say she faced pressures to take drugs. EVERYONE does. Some obviously more than others. There have been plenty of people who have been in the same situation as her and haven't died from drug addiction. You act like drug addicts are poor, tortured souls who have no choice. You ALWAYS have a choice. Even if you have 'infinite funds' and a famous lifestyle (what kind of an excuse is that anyway? Get anything you want and still turn to drugs) you can choose not to be like she was.

I abstain from alcohol and drugs even though most of my friends don't. Yes, I've obviously been pressured, but I say no. Not saying it's the right thing (nor the same situation obviously) but it's what I feel is best for me. But I can almost guarantee if Winehouse always said no when offered drugs she wouldn't be dead.
 

Flapper

First Grade
Messages
7,825
but of course you're assuming everyone has the same amount of willpower as you. It isn't as black and white as you're trying to make it.
 

Moffo

Referee
Messages
23,986
Good on you springs

But don't f**king judge people who choose to drink/do other drugs. Most people who end up addicted to these are depressed or have serious issues in life beforehand. Sure some people don't end up taking the drugs path but f**k your simplistic view of those who do
 

Mr Fourex

Bench
Messages
4,916
No I use examples of those who have kicked heroin and meth and whatever other drugs as proof drug addicts can get off them if they are WILLING. Sure they have help, but the more WILLING they are to get off drugs then the more chance they are of getting clean. If they aren't WILLING to get off drugs then they won't. If it's not willpower then what is it?

Willpower isn't in the quitting. Willpower is in the staying clean. Most drug addicts........ones that aren't wealthy/famous, can relapse 3-6......a dozen times before they can finally kick for good (if they kick for good). The majority of relapses occur within the first 12 mnths.

Once the initial withdrawals have been stabilised and the rigours of living a drug addicts life (poor health....emotionally & financially bankrupt, etc etc) have been healed, the addict is most vulnerable as they start to feel his or her way back into reality/civilisation.

Temptation for a "normal" reformed drug addict is hard enough .........you can't see the same people or go to the same places anymore because you will come into contact with drugs. Generally most former addicts will move neighbourhoods/move interstate to escape the temptations that still haunt them. Even then sometimes just being who they are, can and will lead them back into contact with drugs. It's a complete new life they're trying to start. Unless you've had to do something similar, you just can't comprehend how difficult it is.

Some make it.......some don't. For the ones that don't .......I'm not sure they deserve the scorn and contempt that you've been so quick to display.

You say she faced pressures to take drugs. EVERYONE does. Some obviously more than others. There have been plenty of people who have been in the same situation as her and haven't died from drug addiction. You act like drug addicts are poor, tortured souls who have no choice. You ALWAYS have a choice. Even if you have 'infinite funds' and a famous lifestyle (what kind of an excuse is that anyway? Get anything you want and still turn to drugs) you can choose not to be like she was.

I never said "she faced pressures to take drugs". I said the pressure or temptation for her to relapse back into drug taking would have been immense.

Her world was the music industry. ........an industry well known for it's populace of substance abuse. For her to continue in her vocation, she was going to be in contact with drug users. An extremely difficult position for a reformed drug addict to be in. With no financial restraints like a "normal" drug addict, of which btw is the primary catalyst for most addicts in attempting to quit ........the choice in her case to stay clean becomes even harder.

Even if she were to cut all ties with the industry .........move out of the UK and try and start a new life somewhere. Do you think that in itself wouldn't be news worthy for the shit rags that gorge on celebrity failure? They would be eating it up with a spoon.

Those are the types of pressures that your "normal" reformed drug addict wouldn't have to deal with

and she would have.

I abstain from alcohol and drugs even though most of my friends don't. Yes, I've obviously been pressured, but I say no. Not saying it's the right thing (nor the same situation obviously) but it's what I feel is best for me. But I can almost guarantee if Winehouse always said no when offered drugs she wouldn't be dead.

You sound like a responsible young man/woman. I hope my sons grow up through their teenage years with similar views to drugs and alcohol.

Although .......I must add,

I certainly hope they have a lot more tolerance and compassion that's required to be decent human beings. It's something that you seem to be sorely lacking.

I'm not asking you to make excuses Springs. All I'm saying is that if you haven't walked in another persons shoes, you shouldn't be judging them so harshly.
 

Springs

First Grade
Messages
5,682
Good on you springs

But don't f**king judge people who choose to drink/do other drugs. Most people who end up addicted to these are depressed or have serious issues in life beforehand. Sure some people don't end up taking the drugs path but f**k your simplistic view of those who do

I am depressed ok? I know a lot of people on drugs or have been on drugs. They are my friends. I don't judge them because of that. People judge me cause I don't actually.
I don't judge you, I don't know you, you haven't told me anything. Shut up. All my friends drink. Most are dicks while drunk but I don't care, they are my friends. I try and help those who are on drugs and get pissed on because of it.
I've had friends abused, seen their lives ruined even ended because of circumstances relating to drug and alcohol abuse. I haven't seen any good come of it. I haven't said a word about you, I don't know your life. You don't mine either, I suggest you do likewise mate.
 

Springs

First Grade
Messages
5,682
Willpower isn't in the quitting. Willpower is in the staying clean. Most drug addicts........ones that aren't wealthy/famous, can relapse 3-6......a dozen times before they can finally kick for good (if they kick for good). The majority of relapses occur within the first 12 mnths.

Once the initial withdrawals have been stabilised and the rigours of living a drug addicts life (poor health....emotionally & financially bankrupt, etc etc) have been healed, the addict is most vulnerable as they start to feel his or her way back into reality/civilisation.

Temptation for a "normal" reformed drug addict is hard enough .........you can't see the same people or go to the same places anymore because you will come into contact with drugs. Generally most former addicts will move neighbourhoods/move interstate to escape the temptations that still haunt them. Even then sometimes just being who they are, can and will lead them back into contact with drugs. It's a complete new life they're trying to start. Unless you've had to do something similar, you just can't comprehend how difficult it is.

Some make it.......some don't. For the ones that don't .......I'm not sure they deserve the scorn and contempt that you've been so quick to display.



I never said "she faced pressures to take drugs". I said the pressure or temptation for her to relapse back into drug taking would have been immense.

Her world was the music industry. ........an industry well known for it's populace of substance abuse. For her to continue in her vocation, she was going to be in contact with drug users. An extremely difficult position for a reformed drug addict to be in. With no financial restraints like a "normal" drug addict, of which btw is the primary catalyst for most addicts in attempting to quit ........the choice in her case to stay clean becomes even harder.

Even if she were to cut all ties with the industry .........move out of the UK and try and start a new life somewhere. Do you think that in itself wouldn't be news worthy for the shit rags that gorge on celebrity failure? They would be eating it up with a spoon.

Those are the types of pressures that your "normal" reformed drug addict wouldn't have to deal with

and she would have.



You sound like a responsible young man/woman. I hope my sons grow up through their teenage years with similar views to drugs and alcohol.

Although .......I must add,

I certainly hope they have a lot more tolerance and compassion that's required to be decent human beings. It's something that you seem to be sorely lacking.

I'm not asking you to make excuses Springs. All I'm saying is that if you haven't walked in another persons shoes, you shouldn't be judging them so harshly.

I'm not trying to comprehend how difficult it is and I hope I never will because I will never put myself in that situation. It's a situation they put themselves in, it is sad to see those that don't make it. I don't hold any scorn or contempt for them, just sadness. There's a young girl I have befriended recently. She was addicted to drugs and now takes anti-depressants instead. She also cuts herself and has told me about suicidal thoughts. On top of that, her father hits her. She is now one of my closest friends. I gave her $300 to go away for a week to be away from her father. Next thing I know she's on the street (I don't know why) and needs to come home, I give her $500 more. I haven't heard from her since, I don't know what she is doing with my money but I trust her. I hope you don't see that as scorn or contempt. The only problem I have with drug addicts is when loved ones try so hard to help them and they aren't willing to help themselves for them. For all the resources that go into rehab and whatnot it is sad to see the victims die when those resources could have gone into helping those who did not put themselves under those circumstances.

You make it seem like I would just turn my back on drug addicts and the like. f**k mate, ask any of the people who actually know me about my tolerance and compassion. I only try to be nice to every person I meet and yes, people take advantage of you and leave you lonely. Sorry if I sounded like a dick, words on the internet sound wrong sometimes.

Her world was the music industry. ........an industry well known for it's populace of substance abuse. For her to continue in her vocation, she was going to be in contact with drug users. An extremely difficult position for a reformed drug addict to be in. With no financial restraints like a "normal" drug addict, of which btw is the primary catalyst for most addicts in attempting to quit ........the choice in her case to stay clean becomes even harder.

Even if she were to cut all ties with the industry .........move out of the UK and try and start a new life somewhere. Do you think that in itself wouldn't be news worthy for the shit rags that gorge on celebrity failure? They would be eating it up with a spoon.

Those are the types of pressures that your "normal" reformed drug addict wouldn't have to deal with

I understand that but it still comes down to choice. Other celebrities have gotten through it, maybe she didn't have as much help or support as they did, if she didn't then that's sad. And I really dislike the music industry and celebrity culture. The piece of shit media are complete f**kheads when it comes to celebrities. If she had nowhere to go I understand, but there are always people willing to help, always people that would love her, always people who want to do good, although they seem to be getting fewer. There is always a choice to do the right thing and I wish she had so much.

But I'd like to think some addicts quit for their health and for their loved ones, not for money.

No one will ever walk in another person's shoes mate. You have judged me without knowing me just as you think I have judged her without knowing her. If you noticed I have never said any bad taste jokes like some, I think that's disrespectful to be honest. All I said was that drug abusers do not deserve any more compassion than a starving child born with AIDS in the African Famine. And yet she has had more than the 92 killed in Norway and those in the Horn of Africa. I don't know any of their names, I wish I did. I wish I could help more. I give money to help recovering addicts yet these people can't eat. They have nothing, yet we help those who have had too much. I'm not judging anyone ok? I just wish it would end.
 

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