Round 14 vs Sea Eagles

[Dennis Papaioannou]

He did. However you make a point about Rav struggling against a top 8 side and then throw in Garrick having a great game against us. Hell, my footy career is far from illustrious but I reckon I could have even played well against the Dragons yesterday. They were diabolical. Gitano could even have scored a couple of tries!!!

I just can't help but feel that you want to continually bring up Garrick as loss to the club. I just don't see it and the stats support that. And not to mention competition for the spot at Manly is almost no existent.

My comments re Garrick are justified.
In the context of our existing wing options, he is as good as any of them.
So I am not saying that Garrick is a world beater.
What I am saying is that if we had supported our youth more, we wouldn't have to enter the market to buy various untried players in the hope that they will solve our problems.
I don't know about which stats you are referring to but he has scored 7 tries this year including a great finish yesterday.
He makes very few errors and is reliable in defence.
When you add his goal kicking to the equation, he has established himself as a regular first grader at Manly where as he couldn't get a look in at STI.
He also continues to improve which is an added bonus for Manly.
Hasler certainly saw something that you and our club could not.
Now if you want to make silly comments about Gitano and your own footy career, that's fine. I'm up for a good belly laugh but in the meantime, please tell me what part of my argument is not true or far fetched?
Fact is that Garrick played very well yesterday and in my opinion, has turned out to be a significant loss for us.

 

[True_Believer]

My comments re Garrick are justified.
In the context of our existing wing options, he is as good as any of them.
So I am not saying that Garrick is a world beater.
What I am saying is that if we had supported our youth more, we wouldn't have to enter the market to buy various untried players in the hope that they will solve our problems.
I don't know about which stats you are referring to but he has scored 7 tries this year including a great finish yesterday.
He makes very few errors and is reliable in defence.
When you add his goal kicking to the equation, he has established himself as a regular first grader at Manly where as he couldn't get a look in at STI.
He also continues to improve which is an added bonus for Manly.
Hasler certainly saw something that you and our club could not.
Now if you want to make silly comments about Gitano and your own footy career, that's fine. I'm up for a good belly laugh but in the meantime, please tell me what part of my argument is not true or far fetched?
Fact is that Garrick played very well yesterday and in my opinion, has turned out to be a significant loss for us.

He might be as good as any of them, but that doesn't make him a significant loss. You talk about Rav having a good game against a lower team - but then got "brought back to earth" by a top 8 team. But you want to make out Garrick is a loss because he played well against an under performing Dragons. Shit, he even got shown up against the Titans. He's not as good as you make out. I don't know how you can suggest he is reliable in defense when his tackle effectiveness is lower than our wingers and he leaks tries down his side of the field. Not to mention, there's no competition for wing spots at Manly which makes it easier to retain the spot (much the same sort of thing you complain about at the Dragons).

You just want to bag the club every chance you get by exaggerating the impact a departing player has on the team. And for some reason you believe that you HAVE to hold on to juniors and promote them. This is possibly the most flawed logic of all (not to mention that somehow you keep referring to AFB as a Dragons junior when he actually wasn't).

Here's another example:

What I am saying is that if we had supported our youth more, we wouldn't have to enter the market to buy various untried players in the hope that they will solve our problems.

So are you saying we haven't supported our youth at all or retained them? The team on the paddock at the moment is pretty much made up of juniors. Dufty, Field, Robson, Lawrie, Host etc etc. We support youth just fine. Like I said, you want to keep making statements that have no element of truth about them. It's just to try to pin more blame on the club.

 

[Dennis Papaioannou]

He might be as good as any of them, but that doesn't make him a significant loss. You talk about Rav having a good game against a lower team - but then got "brought back to earth" by a top 8 team. But you want to make out Garrick is a loss because he played well against an under performing Dragons. Shit, he even got shown up against the Titans. He's not as good as you make out. I don't know how you can suggest he is reliable in defense when his tackle effectiveness is lower than our wingers and he leaks tries down his side of the field. Not to mention, there's no competition for wing spots at Manly which makes it easier to retain the spot (much the same sort of thing you complain about at the Dragons).

You just want to bag the club every chance you get by exaggerating the impact a departing player has on the team. And for some reason you believe that you HAVE to hold on to juniors and promote them. This is possibly the most flawed logic of all (not to mention that somehow you keep referring to AFB as a Dragons junior when he actually wasn't).

Here's another example:



So are you saying we haven't supported our youth at all or retained them? The team on the paddock at the moment is pretty much made up of juniors. Dufty, Field, Robson, Lawrie, Host etc etc. We support youth just fine. Like I said, you want to keep making statements that have no element of truth about them. It's just to try to pin more blame on the club.

Well you seem as vehemently opposed to giving any credit for Garrick's FG career as I am of supporting him!!.
So according to you, the only reason Garrick is playing FG at Manly is because there is no competition for wing spots??
I actually know some of the guys at Manly and I will make a point of finding out whether that is true.
I am calling BS now but I will find out and let you know.
Under performing Dragons??
So is that your excuse?
That's akin to the coach's philosophy and rationalization of where we are right now on the table.
So Ravalawa had one good game and you get all precious when I state the obvious?
I am not exaggerating anything. I am just pointing out that we keep letting good prospects go BEOFRE we even try them.
It is well documented that McGregor prefers "safe" options by selecting more experienced players regardless of form.
All the youth examples you mention only got their chance in FG because of injury or suspension.
Dufty only got a run because Dugan was injured.
Lawrie and Host the same (JDB, Frizell, Graham).
Robson was never given a fair go and the end result is that he got signed by another club.
He has been ready for FG since last season and could have made a major impact in a hookler/forward rotation off the bench.
If you seriously think that Field has been given a fair go you are kidding yourself.
Token minutes and brought on yesterday with the score at 28-8.
What sort of chance does that give a young player? Certainly too late to influence the outcome.
AFB was our reserve grade captain and a player of tremendous promise.
My views on his retention have been well documented.
I think he was a massive loss with Manly now the main beneficiary.
So we can argue the toss about which of our youth are worth keeping and which are no great loss but there is something seriously wrong with the way we bring players through to FG.
As for bagging the club every chance I get....you must live in a glass bubble.
We are sitting 14th on the table right this minute.
Our best season finish since Bennett was 7th last year.
We have capitulated in the second half of the season every year McGregor has been in charge.
We continue to extend his contract in the hope that he will some day prove all of us wrong.
You make that statement like I'm the only one unreasonably criticizing the club.
I may also say that you are blindly supporting the club with your head in the sand approach.
My only motivation is to see St.George be the best club it can possibly be.
If I shut up and say nothing then I am not a genuine supporter.

 

[Old Timer]

He might be as good as any of them, but that doesn't make him a significant loss. You talk about Rav having a good game against a lower team - but then got "brought back to earth" by a top 8 team. But you want to make out Garrick is a loss because he played well against an under performing Dragons. Shit, he even got shown up against the Titans. He's not as good as you make out. I don't know how you can suggest he is reliable in defense when his tackle effectiveness is lower than our wingers and he leaks tries down his side of the field. Not to mention, there's no competition for wing spots at Manly which makes it easier to retain the spot (much the same sort of thing you complain about at the Dragons).

You just want to bag the club every chance you get by exaggerating the impact a departing player has on the team. And for some reason you believe that you HAVE to hold on to juniors and promote them. This is possibly the most flawed logic of all (not to mention that somehow you keep referring to AFB as a Dragons junior when he actually wasn't).

Here's another example:



So are you saying we haven't supported our youth at all or retained them? The team on the paddock at the moment is pretty much made up of juniors. Dufty, Field, Robson, Lawrie, Host etc etc. We support youth just fine. Like I said, you want to keep making statements that have no element of truth about them. It's just to try to pin more blame on the club.

The results since Bennet's departure are deplorable and the fact we let some players go without really trying them or persevering with them and at the same time signed players some of who are atrocious and others filling their time sheets in up to retiring age.
Almost everyone who have left us in recent years are now playing good football at clubs that are all higher than us on the ladder and those that have come to us have seen us go into free fall so that does require some explanation.
If it ain't the clubs fault then whose fault is it?
All well and good for people to try and give it to Garrick but he has a real chance at semi final footy and is banking winners checks in a 1st grade side.

 

[RedV Resurgence]

100% Spot on TB.
The wrestle, whether we like it or not is a huge part of the game these days & normally decides who wins.Our record in winning the wrestle is so poor, which reflects in our results.The power game we employ doesn't help matters when the forwards start to tire or carry injuries.As soon as the opposition go up a gear we are left floundering with yesterday being a prime example.

Add to the fact that Mary is soooo focus on giving away penalties that we release the play too quickly and they get a run on - effectively like giving them a penalty, it just does not show up on the penalty count. We need to be smarter at wrestling the ball runner and slowing the play the ball.

 

[True_Believer]

Well you seem as vehemently opposed to giving any credit for Garrick's FG career as I am of supporting him!!.
So according to you, the only reason Garrick is playing FG at Manly is because there is no competition for wing spots??

Total misrepresentation of my point. Good luck to the kid if he can make it - he playing positive football in a team with loads of confidence. My point is that it isn't a loss to the club. And I'd suggest at least part of the reason is that the 2 wingers in CC are 25/26 no names. I'm sure your "Manly mates" aren't going to be biased...

Under performing Dragons??
So is that your excuse?

It's not an excuse, it's a fact. So to suggest Rav plays well against lower teams is fine but you can't say the same about Garrick on the weekend? I'm pointing out that your statements are contradictory. Convenient that you bypass the Titans game and defensive stats provided in another thread.

All the youth examples you mention only got their chance in FG because of injury or suspension.
Dufty only got a run because Dugan was injured.
Lawrie and Host the same (JDB, Frizell, Graham).
Robson was never given a fair go and the end result is that he got signed by another club.
He has been ready for FG since last season and could have made a major impact in a hookler/forward rotation off the bench.

And yet we continue to resign them. Garrick we didn't because we saw no value in keeping him. How they got their shot at first grade is irrelevant, we are still resigning them because we see value in keeping them and see a future for them in the Red V.

So we can argue the toss about which of our youth are worth keeping and which are no great loss but there is something seriously wrong with the way we bring players through to FG.

This I can agree on - but it comes down to the coach only. I don't think we can suggest that the players we currently have are no better than what we let go because we have coaching staff in place that can't bring them through or develop them. The problem is the retention of the coaching staff, not the players themselves.

You make that statement like I'm the only one unreasonably criticizing the club.
I may also say that you are blindly supporting the club with your head in the sand approach.

Lol - this old chestnut. Why don't you throw in apologist as well? The club has problems and I acknowledge that most definitely, but I'm not going to throw shit at them for releasing players like Garrick. My opinion is that it was the right choice given what I've seen so far.

 

[True_Believer]

The results since Bennet's departure are deplorable and the fact we let some players go without really trying them or persevering with them and at the same time signed players some of who are atrocious and others filling their time sheets in up to retiring age.
Almost everyone who have left us in recent years are now playing good football at clubs that are all higher than us on the ladder and those that have come to us have seen us go into free fall so that does require some explanation.
If it ain't the clubs fault then whose fault is it?
All well and good for people to try and give it to Garrick but he has a real chance at semi final footy and is banking winners checks in a 1st grade side.

Quite possibly, but Garrick isn't one of them. Even you acknowledged in the "REUBEN GARRICK" thread that a reality check is required when assessing him as a loss when he let through 3 tries against the Titans.

Like I said, good luck to him and he's playing in a team on the up.

 

[Old Timer]

Quite possibly, but Garrick isn't one of them. Even you acknowledged in the "REUBEN GARRICK" thread that a reality check is required when assessing him as a loss when he let through 3 tries against the Titans.

Like I said, good luck to him and he's playing in a team on the up.

Indeed I did say that but on the basis of what he is delivering at his club compared to what we have delivering in that position at our club it is hard top imagine that we wouldn't be better off with Garrick.
The quality of what we let go is not being improved by what we bring in and that is the basis of DP's argument and it is hard to not agree with it.
We really didn't know whether Garrick was 1st grade quality nor did we know if Pereira, Pearson or Ravalawa were 1st grade quality either but we signed them all and extended 1 of them.
I think Manly are a lot happier with their purchase than we are with ours.

 

[True_Believer]

Indeed I did say that but on the basis of what he is delivering at his club compared to what we have delivering in that position at our club it is hard top imagine that we wouldn't be better off with Garrick.
The quality of what we let go is not being improved by what we bring in and that is the basis of DP's argument and it is hard to not agree with it.
We really didn't know whether Garrick was 1st grade quality nor did we know if Pereira, Pearson or Ravalawa were 1st grade quality either but we signed them all and extended 1 of them.
I think Manly are a lot happier with their purchase than we are with ours.

Do you think Garrick would be performing the same way in our team currently?

 

[Dennis Papaioannou]

Total misrepresentation of my point. Good luck to the kid if he can make it - he playing positive football in a team with loads of confidence. My point is that it isn't a loss to the club. And I'd suggest at least part of the reason is that the 2 wingers in CC are 25/26 no names. I'm sure your "Manly mates" aren't going to be biased...
If I am misrepresenting your view why haven't you wished him luck before now? Whatever my Manly mates tell me, I can come to my own conclusions. I call BS on your CC assumption also.


It's not an excuse, it's a fact. So to suggest Rav plays well against lower teams is fine but you can't say the same about Garrick on the weekend? I'm pointing out that your statements are contradictory. Convenient that you bypass the Titans game and defensive stats provided in another thread.
I am not ignoring the Titans game at all, I am taking an overall view and stating clearly that he is not the finished article but continues to improve. His stats reflect where he is in his development.


And yet we continue to resign them. Garrick we didn't because we saw no value in keeping him. How they got their shot at first grade is irrelevant, we are still resigning them because we see value in keeping them and see a future for them in the Red V.
I say we were wrong about Garrick (in the context of our current wingers) and we were wrong about Aitkin (long term signing) and we were wrong about Dufty (another long term signing) and we didn't/wouldn't/couldn't sign Robson.
I think the way they finally made into FG is very relevant. If you can't see that then we are talking at cross purposes.



This I can agree on - but it comes down to the coach only. I don't think we can suggest that the players we currently have are no better than what we let go because we have coaching staff in place that can't bring them through or develop them. The problem is the retention of the coaching staff, not the players themselves.
The problem is the pathway to FG and how we develop our up and comers.
They have no priority in our current set up and as a result have no way of developing their game.
McGregor doesn't even watch the lower grades so how motivated is he to bring them along.
I honestly don't know how we will ever be able to make those assessments.



Lol - this old chestnut. Why don't you throw in apologist as well? The club has problems and I acknowledge that most definitely, but I'm not going to throw shit at them for releasing players like Garrick. My opinion is that it was the right choice given what I've seen so far.

So we disagree on Garrick - that's obvious and that's OK because that's what this forum is all about but I really don't understand how you interpret my views as "throwing shit" at the club.
You agree that we have problems but you get all precious when these problems are laid bare and are debated on the forum.
It's not like there isn't constant commentary from the fan base on social media and this forum.
Why don't you call out a bunch of other posters that say a lot worse than I do?
So your not an apologist and you don't blindly support the club philosophy.
Please tell me how are we going to fix this mess while I remind you that we are in 14th position on the table?

 

[True_Believer]

So we disagree on Garrick - that's obvious and that's OK because that's what this forum is all about but I really don't understand how you interpret my views as "throwing shit" at the club.
You agree that we have problems but you get all precious when these problems are laid bare and are debated on the forum.
It's not like there isn't constant commentary from the fan base on social media and this forum.
Why don't you call out a bunch of other posters that say a lot worse than I do?
So your not an apologist and you don't blindly support the club philosophy.
Please tell me how are we going to fix this mess while I remind you that we are in 14th position on the table?

My first post was solely about Garrick. Because I disagree with you regarding his retention I'm getting precious? That's a good one. And I have wished him luck in other threads. I don't have to wish him luck in every post just to please you.

You obviously haven't read many of my posts - I've had disagreements with OT, getsmarty, possm and that's just recently. I'm sure there's others. Don't think you're special because I tend to call out your claims that Garrick is a loss to the club. I just think your reasoning behind it really has no basis. I can almost guarantee that had we kept him and played him in our current team we would have already been calling for his head.

Without looking at the club as a whole, let's narrow it down to the topic of this discussion. The reason we are in this position is purely because of the coach. If we replace the coach I don't think we even bring Garrick into the discussion. We've seen glimpses of what Rav and even Pearson can offer - however in a team that is playing crap across the park and is down on confidence, we just aren't utilising them. We really don't get a chance to see what they can do in a confident team on the up. Again, down to the coach. You're saying that Garrick isn't the finished article but Rav and Pearson are? I don't think they are getting the same opportunity that has been afforded to Garrick so I can't agree that that is as good as it gets. The argument should be about the coaching staff - not the players.

Let me ask you, how does bemoaning the loss of Garrick fix the mess (while I remind you that we are in 13th position)?

Have you heard of Abbas Miski, John Tohi? They're the CC wingers for the Blacktown Eagles. I'd be amazed if you haven't heard of them - they have both played in the Dragons lower grades so more "juniors" we've let go without giving a chance?

And the whole "McGregor doesn't watch the lower grades" is just BS. You don't know that for a fact. Is it because he's not at the ground watching them? Do you think Bellamy gets to every Brisbane game every weekend? Do you think Green gets to 3 extra games a weekend given his players are spread across different towns in the North? Do you think Bennett actually attends and watches reserve grade games? I'm no fan of Mary, but this sort of stuff is just stupid.

 

[Dennis Papaioannou]

My first post was solely about Garrick. Because I disagree with you regarding his retention I'm getting precious? That's a good one. And I have wished him luck in other threads. I don't have to wish him luck in every post just to please you.
I am pleased and apologize if I was unjust.

You obviously haven't read many of my posts - I've had disagreements with OT, getsmarty, possm and that's just recently. I'm sure there's others. Well that's a relief!
Don't think you're special because I tend to call out your claims that Garrick is a loss to the club. I just think your reasoning behind it really has no basis. I can almost guarantee that had we kept him and played him in our current team we would have already been calling for his head.
That in itself supports what I have been saying. Pretty sad indictment on the club don't you think?
Without looking at the club as a whole, let's narrow it down to the topic of this discussion. The reason we are in this position is purely because of the coach. If we replace the coach I don't think we even bring Garrick into the discussion. We've seen glimpses of what Rav and even Pearson can offer - however in a team that is playing crap across the park and is down on confidence, we just aren't utilising them. We really don't get a chance to see what they can do in a confident team on the up. Again, down to the coach.
So let's just say Hasler had replaced McGregor as our coach. Why wouldn't Garrick come into calculations under a new coach? Especially considering he was already on our books before we signed Pireira, Pearson, Ravlawa and Maranta.
You're saying that Garrick isn't the finished article but Rav and Pearson are?
I think you could say that about Rav but not about Pearson, Maranta and Pireira.
I don't think they are getting the same opportunity that has been afforded to Garrick so I can't agree that that is as good as it gets. The argument should be about the coaching staff - not the players.
It is beyond me that you can make that sort of subjective statement when Ravalawa has shown to be a heart attack exponent that was recently dropped to reserve grade and only reinstated against the dogs.
Then Pearson who has played two FG games. One against the dogs which we managed to flog.

Let me ask you, how does bemoaning the loss of Garrick fix the mess (while I remind you that we are in 13th position)?
If you want to misinterpret what I say then it stops being a debate.
All I was doing is giving you an example of the malaise that has overcome our club.
Retaining Garrick in itself could no more fix the mess than you or I could.
The principle however is prioritizing our youth and giving them every opportunity to develop and shine.


Have you heard of Abbas Miski, John Tohi? They're the CC wingers for the Blacktown Eagles. I'd be amazed if you haven't heard of them - they have both played in the Dragons lower grades so more "juniors" we've let go without giving a chance? So what's your point. We have a pool of 100 players throughout our junior ranks. Who said they were all potential first graders?? There are supposed to be experts at the club that can distinguish the ones that can progress. I don't profess to be one but I am expressing an opinion.

And the whole "McGregor doesn't watch the lower grades" is just BS. You don't know that for a fact. Is it because he's not at the ground watching them? Do you think Bellamy gets to every Brisbane game every weekend? Do you think Green gets to 3 extra games a weekend given his players are spread across different towns in the North? Do you think Bennett actually attends and watches reserve grade games? I'm no fan of Mary, but this sort of stuff is just stupid.

OK let's say he gets the low down from his assistants about who is performing well in the lower grades.
You maintain that Dufty, Lawrie, Host, Field and Robson all got their chance in FG on form but I call BS to that.
They got their chance by circumstance, not because there was an organized development path into FG.
So it seems that whether McGregor watches the lower grades or not, it makes not difference to his decision making process.
You still haven't explained to me how my posts are heaping shit on the club?
Or was that just a throw away line?

 

[muzby]

Almost everyone who have left us in recent years are now playing good football at clubs that are all higher than us on the ladder

Indeed..

Merrin is killing it in the ESL, which although not on the ladder is indeed higher than us on the globe..

Rein has finally found a bench spot at the Titans, and although they’re below us on the ladder they’re also higher than us on the globe..

Josh Dugan has not only lost his fullback spot, he’s lost his centre spot too.. and his NSW jersey..

Jack Bird has gone downhill faster than a McGregor mid season slump..

If it ain't the clubs fault then whose fault is it?

Yours.

 

[Old Timer]

Indeed..

Merrin is killing it in the ESL, which although not on the ladder is indeed higher than us on the globe..

Rein has finally found a bench spot at the Titans, and although they’re below us on the ladder they’re also higher than us on the globe..

Josh Dugan has not only lost his fullback spot, he’s lost his centre spot too.. and his NSW jersey..

Jack Bird has gone downhill faster than a McGregor mid season slump..




Yours.

Good old muzby the defender of all things mediocrity aka Illawarra.
I said almost and you come up with Merrin who left in 2015 , Rein who was never 1st grade quality and of course Dugan who lost out at SOO and rep level over a disciplinary matter, and in respect of Bird talk about selective assessment on your part he left us for Cronulla and achieved 1st grade selection, a 1st grade premiership, SOO selection, Indigenous All Stars selection, Prime Ministers 13 selection and as you failed to point out suffered a bad injury and has failed to continue on after "leaving Cronulla" and moving to Brisbane.
Then of course you fail to make any comment on the current crop (really the heart of the thread) Garrick, Sele, Herbert.

 

[Old Timer]

Do you think Garrick would be performing the same way in our team currently?

A good question and one we should have known the answer to before letting him go and signing the rubes we now have as wingers.
In respect of scoring tries I am sure Garrick is faster than all 3 we have and indeed would have managed to score some of the tries we failed to score due to our wingers being too slow.
No doubt Garrick has some mistakes in him but so do the ones we have and IMO Garrick has a far better sense of how to play wing.
Your post also poses the evocative question as to Garrick being able to play the same way he does at Manly with the severe limitations within our squad and coaching if he had of remained.
Playing outside Lafai I suspect he would have done very well in attack, outside Aitken he would have starved to death.
In defence again outside Lafai he would have had less issues but outside Aitken it could have been very ordinary but that is an issue for anyone who plays on that side.

 

[muzby]

Good old muzby the defender of all things mediocrity aka Illawarra.

Come on man.. you know Illawarra is the future.. We’re only being held back by the Kogarah old boys club.

Embrace the future.. Success awaits..

I said almost and you come up with Merrin who left in 2015 , Rein who was never 1st grade quality and of course Dugan who lost out at SOO and rep level over a disciplinary matter, and in respect of Bird talk about selective assessment on your part he left us for Cronulla and achieved 1st grade selection, a 1st grade premiership, SOO selection, Indigenous All Stars selection, Prime Ministers 13 selection and as you failed to point out suffered a bad injury and has failed to continue on after "leaving Cronulla" and moving to Brisbane.
Then of course you fail to make any comment on the current crop (really the heart of the thread) Garrick, Sele, Herbert.

Wow.. So much derp in one post..

Let’s dissect it..

So when you said:

Almost everyone who have left us in recent years are now playing good football at clubs that are all higher than us on the ladder

By “recent years” you only meant “last year” and by “almost everyone” you meant “3 players”.

Got it. So just a couple of grand generalisations there, but that’s okay.. You were nearly right some of the time..

Garrick, Sele, Herbert.

Cool, so let’s discuss these three..

Garrick & Herbert left the club to get a first grade spot, which they only achieved at their new clubs via an injury to another player.. They didn’t force out an established player with their form..

Had they stayed here, they would have also achieved selection this year given our run of injuries.


And Sele??

A success since leaving us?

f**king hell man, he hasn’t been seen in first grade for weeks.. Currently running around in the NSW Cup..

Can’t even get a gig at the Panthers.. Who are LOWER than us on the ladder..

Then of course you fail to make any comment on the current crop (really the heart of the thread)

Actually, the “heart” of this thread was the lead up to, and match comments during, the game last weekend.

There are literally hundreds of posts discussing that..

Hundreds..

And only a handful posts complaining now about our current crop..

Lol..

“Heart of the thread”.. Sele a success..

Did you hit the piss hard last night or something?

 

[True_Believer]

OK let's say he gets the low down from his assistants about who is performing well in the lower grades.
You maintain that Dufty, Lawrie, Host, Field and Robson all got their chance in FG on form but I call BS to that.
They got their chance by circumstance, not because there was an organized development path into FG.
So it seems that whether McGregor watches the lower grades or not, it makes not difference to his decision making process.
You still haven't explained to me how my posts are heaping shit on the club?
Or was that just a throw away line?

Not sure why you think anything I have said is any more subjective than your comments. The whole discussion is subjective and based on personal views – that in itself makes it all subjective.

Firstly, I never said I thought they got their chance on form. I just said that we currently have a team full of youth. You suggested we don’t look after our youth. I’m suggesting that we do for players we deem worth keeping. We bring them through to CC without a problem – even resigning the more promising ones. The blockage is the coach. Just because we let some go, doesn’t mean we aren’t doing the right things by keeping others and bringing them through. It’s the coach’s reluctance to give them the opportunity that creates the problems. The pathways to that point aren’t the problem. Which brings me to my second point.

Here’s the stats to date for Garrick and our 3 wingers (excluding Maranta).

Garrick:
Try Assists: 1
Tackle Breaks: 31
Line Breaks: 4
Tackles: 70
Missed Tackles: 25
Efficiency: 57.3%
Average Run M: 100.6

Ravalawa:
Try Assists: 1
Tackle Breaks: 34
Line Breaks: 8
Tackles: 25
Missed Tackles: 8
Efficiency: 59.1%
Average Run M: 117.2

Pereira:
Try Assists: 0
Tackle Breaks: 64
Line Breaks: 6
Tackles: 43
Missed Tackles: 6
Efficiency: 81%
Average Run M: 137.4

Pearson:
Try Assists: 0
Tackle Breaks: 5
Line Breaks: 1
Tackles: 11
Missed Tackles: 1
Efficiency: 92.8%
Average Run M: 114.1

If, as you say, Garrick is improving, then he must have had a low bar to start with. My point is, that even with the wingers we’ve bought, in my opinion they are already better or at least on par with Garrick even without the opportunity to improve under better coaching structures. Granted Pearson has only played 2 games, however based on the limited stuff I’ve seen and the despair expressed by Bronco’s supporters at his release, I’m willing to give him more chances to show what he’s got. The problem is that we don’t have coaching staff in place that can help them progress in first grade. That is why I said they aren’t being afforded the same opportunity that Garrick is. He is under a better team structure and coach than our 3 are. If given a chance under better structures, like I said, I don’t think Garrick comes into consideration. And that’s from this point forward. Not in the past (which was your question “how are we going to resolve this issue” not “how could we have resolved this issue”). It is my view that we replace the coach and see a marked improvement in the wingers we have. And it’s not just the wingers, it’s the whole team.

Finally, the reason I thought you were throwing shit at the club was because I genuinely thought you were using Garrick as just another “oh here’s another reason to point out their incompetence” without having anything to base it on (which I’ve pointed out numerous times – similar to the “Mary doesn’t watch the reserve grade games”. It’s propagated BS without any proof). However, on reflection, you genuinely believe he was worth keeping. I personally can’t understand your reasoning, but I don’t have to. I have my reasons for thinking we’ve done the right thing in this case and you have yours.

There were a few people in here calling for Garrick to be let go last year given his inconsistency and his defensive frailty. There is even still people in here (other than me) stating that he wasn’t worth keeping. Yes, we may have issues with coaching staff not being able to mentor or improve the players, however in my opinion releasing Garrick was the correct call. As I’ve said, I’ve seen nothing to suggest otherwise.

 

[Old Timer]

Come on man.. you know Illawarra is the future.. We’re only being held back by the Kogarah old boys club.

Embrace the future.. Success awaits..



Wow.. So much derp in one post..

Let’s dissect it..

So when you said:

By “recent years” you only meant “last year” and by “almost everyone” you meant “3 players”.

Got it. So just a couple of grand generalisations there, but that’s okay.. You were nearly right some of the time..


Cool, so let’s discuss these three..

Garrick & Herbert left the club to get a first grade spot, which they only achieved at their new clubs via an injury to another player.. They didn’t force out an established player with their form..

Had they stayed here, they would have also achieved selection this year given our run of injuries.


And Sele??

A success since leaving us?

f**king hell man, he hasn’t been seen in first grade for weeks.. Currently running around in the NSW Cup..

Can’t even get a gig at the Panthers.. Who are LOWER than us on the ladder..



Actually, the “heart” of this thread was the lead up to, and match comments during, the game last weekend.

There are literally hundreds of posts discussing that..

Hundreds..

And only a handful posts complaining now about our current crop..

Lol..

“Heart of the thread”.. Sele a success..

Did you hit the piss hard last night or something?

OK lets dissect it indeed.
The post I made clearly said:

"The results since Bennet's departure are deplorable and the fact we let some players go without really trying them or persevering with them and at the same time signed players some of who are atrocious and others filling their time sheets in up to retiring age."

In your response you bring up Merrin, Rein, Dugan so please explain what part of "we let some players go without really trying them or persevering with them" applies to them?

We let untried players from within our system go in favour of players that were supposedly better than them and we didn't know how good any of them were in the 1st place before we let them go and the ones coming in are shitter's.

Keeping Latimore above Sele (who you fail to say has had a couple of very bad injuries interrupt his season) you really want to defend that decision?

You suggest given our injuries that Garrick, Herbert, Sele would have been selected in our team this year which is pure fantasy and speculation on your part.
We have had plenty of injuries in the forwards and Kerr, Blacker, Timm can't get selected on a regular basis whilst Latimore is a walk up start and in the backs Aitken has been a fixture and will continue to be so despite being absolute shit. Our selection and pathways policies are absolute crap.

Maranta was considered a better option than keeping Herbert or Garrick FFS face up to the reality of your Illawarra hero's efforts in destroying our club.

Whilst my naming of Sele wasn't the strongest point I have ever made it is blisteringly good compared to your shocker re Bird so if I was on the piss you were completely comatose.

 

[Dennis Papaioannou]

Not sure why you think anything I have said is any more subjective than your comments. The whole discussion is subjective and based on personal views – that in itself makes it all subjective.

Firstly, I never said I thought they got their chance on form. I just said that we currently have a team full of youth. You suggested we don’t look after our youth. I’m suggesting that we do for players we deem worth keeping. We bring them through to CC without a problem – even resigning the more promising ones. The blockage is the coach. Just because we let some go, doesn’t mean we aren’t doing the right things by keeping others and bringing them through. It’s the coach’s reluctance to give them the opportunity that creates the problems. The pathways to that point aren’t the problem. Which brings me to my second point.

Here’s the stats to date for Garrick and our 3 wingers (excluding Maranta).

Garrick:
Try Assists: 1
Tackle Breaks: 31
Line Breaks: 4
Tackles: 70
Missed Tackles: 25
Efficiency: 57.3%
Average Run M: 100.6

Ravalawa:
Try Assists: 1
Tackle Breaks: 34
Line Breaks: 8
Tackles: 25
Missed Tackles: 8
Efficiency: 59.1%
Average Run M: 117.2

Pereira:
Try Assists: 0
Tackle Breaks: 64
Line Breaks: 6
Tackles: 43
Missed Tackles: 6
Efficiency: 81%
Average Run M: 137.4

Pearson:
Try Assists: 0
Tackle Breaks: 5
Line Breaks: 1
Tackles: 11
Missed Tackles: 1
Efficiency: 92.8%
Average Run M: 114.1

If, as you say, Garrick is improving, then he must have had a low bar to start with. My point is, that even with the wingers we’ve bought, in my opinion they are already better or at least on par with Garrick even without the opportunity to improve under better coaching structures. Granted Pearson has only played 2 games, however based on the limited stuff I’ve seen and the despair expressed by Bronco’s supporters at his release, I’m willing to give him more chances to show what he’s got. The problem is that we don’t have coaching staff in place that can help them progress in first grade. That is why I said they aren’t being afforded the same opportunity that Garrick is. He is under a better team structure and coach than our 3 are. If given a chance under better structures, like I said, I don’t think Garrick comes into consideration. And that’s from this point forward. Not in the past (which was your question “how are we going to resolve this issue” not “how could we have resolved this issue”). It is my view that we replace the coach and see a marked improvement in the wingers we have. And it’s not just the wingers, it’s the whole team.

Finally, the reason I thought you were throwing shit at the club was because I genuinely thought you were using Garrick as just another “oh here’s another reason to point out their incompetence” without having anything to base it on (which I’ve pointed out numerous times – similar to the “Mary doesn’t watch the reserve grade games”. It’s propagated BS without any proof). However, on reflection, you genuinely believe he was worth keeping. I personally can’t understand your reasoning, but I don’t have to. I have my reasons for thinking we’ve done the right thing in this case and you have yours.

There were a few people in here calling for Garrick to be let go last year given his inconsistency and his defensive frailty. There is even still people in here (other than me) stating that he wasn’t worth keeping. Yes, we may have issues with coaching staff not being able to mentor or improve the players, however in my opinion releasing Garrick was the correct call. As I’ve said, I’ve seen nothing to suggest otherwise.

I actually like Garrick as a player a lot and I can respect a lot of what you say, even if we don't agree.
The only final point I would make when making comparisons with the current crop of wingers is they all got a chance in FG at St. George.
Garrick got zero and ultimately had to move to another club to even get a sniff.
I have no idea how you can assess a young guy who obviously has potential, if you don't afford him game time in FG.
In our team I tend to agree with OT in that the try scoring and defensive records of the wingers are indisputably connected to the centre that plays inside them.
Nightingale score 16 tries in 2017 outside Lafai and only a couple playing outside Aitkin in 2018 leading to a pretty ordinary farewell for one of the club's favourite sons.
We can agree on one overriding factor though and that is the coach.
Under McGregor we have no pulse as a club and the sooner we throw the keys to a savvy coach from outside the inner sanctum, the sooner we will start to see some spark in this once great club.

 

[muzby]

OK lets dissect it indeed.
The post I made clearly said:

"The results since Bennet's departure are deplorable and the fact we let some players go without really trying them or persevering with them and at the same time signed players some of who are atrocious and others filling their time sheets in up to retiring age."

In your response you bring up Merrin, Rein, Dugan so please explain what part of "we let some players go without really trying them or persevering with them" applies to them?

We let untried players from within our system go in favour of players that were supposedly better than them and we didn't know how good any of them were in the 1st place before we let them go and the ones coming in are shitter's.

Keeping Latimore above Sele (who you fail to say has had a couple of very bad injuries interrupt his season) you really want to defend that decision?

You suggest given our injuries that Garrick, Herbert, Sele would have been selected in our team this year which is pure fantasy and speculation on your part.
We have had plenty of injuries in the forwards and Kerr, Blacker, Timm can't get selected on a regular basis whilst Latimore is a walk up start and in the backs Aitken has been a fixture and will continue to be so despite being absolute shit. Our selection and pathways policies are absolute crap.

Maranta was considered a better option than keeping Herbert or Garrick FFS face up to the reality of your Illawarra hero's efforts in destroying our club.

Whilst my naming of Sele wasn't the strongest point I have ever made it is blisteringly good compared to your shocker re Bird so if I was on the piss you were completely comatose.

My word, you really are having a bad day with all of this..

Bird had a couple of good seasons but is now a liability and on the outer..

I never said Sele would get picked due to injuries, it was the other two nufties..

And you’ll find your three junior forwards aren’t 1st grade material at the moment..


Oh, and we signed Maranta as a back up AFTER losing the two juniors..



Come on man, you’re letting the side down..