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Round 7 v Roosters

SGMax

Juniors
Messages
312
I‘m not saying you are wrong as I haven’t done much research but I’m very suspicious of the salary cap. It’s only my opinion and it differs greatly from yours. What someone recently posted highlights my concerns. It showed a telling statistic. In the last 20 years there only been 2 grand finals that haven’t featured either Melbourne or the Roosters. To me this statistic indicates the exact opposite of a ‘level playing field’ when referring to the last two decades. These two teams and now a few others are steam rolling ahead, whilst others are being left in their wake. Today, looking at the teams, id say I can’t remember of a time when the gap between top teams and bottom teams has been so great. And there is no doubt it will have an effect on the supporter base in the future, one glaring example being the record low numbers at dragons games.

It’s not just the Roosters who easily afford top shelf players, but to keep the post short I could say the top teams have quality throughout whereas the bottom have far fewer quality players.

Now as to the reasons why there is such a disparity exists? We are constantly told, and it gets shouted from the roof tops every time the salary cap is questioned, that there is such a difference in the star quality in teams because of the great coaches and great clubs encourage players to come for considerable less money. I feel the media really pedals this cart really well for the mere fact that it is more palatable the answering an uneven cap. Recently Gould commented that if Trent Robinson had the dragons they’d be premiers within 5 years. Im not convinced comments are even believed by the narrator, but again that’s my opinion.

I think it’s fair to give considerable weight to coaches and clubs for their development of juniors, training, recruitment etc but I’m still not convinced all the cards are on the table. Imsuspect there is far more relevant (mostly under-handed) acts in play. This is of course impossible to prove.

I think the NRL are to blame as they are the adjudicators. I think some are now bigger than the NRL and the NRL have little capacity to intervene. Hopefully I’m wrong but the stragglers like us may soon be left behind and forgotten.


Love your post Belta, spot on.
I can't understand why the NRL will register a contract for $700K when the market value of a player is clearly $1.1m+ (Tedesco).

All they need to do is independently value each player (maybe a small committee of 4 or 5) and count that value for cap purposes regardless of the actual contract or any third party payments.

If the player wants to receive less because he likes the club or coach or the chance for a title, that's irrelevant to the cap.
If a club wants to pay more that should be irrelevant also....good luck to the player, that's market forces working.

Now that the difference between top and bottom teams is accentuated, it is vital that they enforce a just cap and level the chances for all teams at attracting talent.

This spread of talent is also vital for expansion as there will never be enough talent for additional teams if the strong teams hoard all the best players.
 

Slippery Morris

First Grade
Messages
6,175
Since the Cap was introduced there have been 4 teams caught cheating and 3 won a Grand Final during or shortly after (Storm, Dogs and Sharks). Eels were the latest caught and well, lets just say they are gonna give this year a good shake.

So salary cap does work. Cheat it and you get a final after you get caught. That seems to be the common theme.
 

TruSaint

Coach
Messages
18,561
Since the Cap was introduced there have been 4 teams caught cheating and 3 won a Grand Final during or shortly after (Storm, Dogs and Sharks). Eels were the latest caught and well, lets just say they are gonna give this year a good shake.

So salary cap does work. Cheat it and you get a final after you get caught. That seems to be the common theme.

So in 30 years of the Cap, this being the 31st, we have had 4 serious breaches.
Of the worst breaches, titles have been stripped and or points deduced.

I agree its not perfect, but without it, you would have a 8-10 team comp.
 

Dragon David

Juniors
Messages
2,295
Salary cap just doesn’t work for anyone other than roosters.

Heard this morning Buzz telling Daley on radio that the roosters are 500 grand under the cap. Hell we must have some shit accountant.
Apparently they lost Latrell and Cronk.
Latrell was on only 400 grand. They needed to upgrade players so I don’t get how they are still 500 under
Always the same story. Roosters under the cap, blah, blah, blah. More like the under the hubcaps of Uncle Nick's vehicles.
 

Dragon David

Juniors
Messages
2,295
Buzz has become Politis's mouthpiece and is there to combat and defend any thought of them not being compliant.
He is now on the bandwagon also of being anti the Hybrid test at the end of the year because Uncle Nick doesn't like it
Yes, we know who is running the comp and it's not the NRL but the mass media and the powerhouse Businessmen (not including our deep pocket owners).

If this situation continues infinitum who will want to be watching a 6-8 team comp in the future?
 

TruSaint

Coach
Messages
18,561
Regarding the salary cap; when investigating compliance, does the NRL investigate players finances?
Talk of 3rd party payments hasn't been raised as of late but I seem to remember stories of players being given 'inducements' that aren't included under the salary cap quite a few years back.

Like the talk that Thurston was given a luxury apartment to stay at the Cowboys for e.g.
To be fair I can't recall if that was just a rumour or if that had been investigated but it would be an easy way to rort the system, especially if the player received the asset/payment after they had retired.

Is that a possibility or does the NRL compliance team have that covered?

Good question.

The NRL last year made 3rd party deals "public". In addition, they emphasized they had access to bank accounts.

https://www.nrl.com/news/2018/12/13...ents-public-and-strengthens-contract-process/

Now the biggest gripe many have is HOW much a player can earn via 3rd party agreements. The answer is below, and I agree with it. If I am a player limited in salary as a result of a cap, then I shouldn't be restricted to earn whatever I can through other avenues. That is a free market and offsets any discussion of restraint of trade.

What players can earn outside the salary cap

Unlimited - Players can earn unlimited amounts from corporate sponsors who are not associated with the club and who do not use the game's intellectual property (no club logos, jerseys or emblems) provided these are pre-approved by both a Player’s Club and the NRL. These agreements may not be negotiated by the club as an incentive for a player to sign a contract, nor can they be guaranteed by the club.

Other Benefits - Tertiary education fees, approved traineeships, medical insurance costs, relocation/temporary accommodation costs are not included in the cap but must be approved.


https://www.nrl.com/operations/integrity/salary-cap/

Monitoring the 3rd party agreement.

How does the Salary Cap Auditor monitor the Salary Cap?
All NRL player contracts must be lodged with the Salary Cap Auditor. These contracts are reviewed and each player's remuneration is included in the Salary Cap.

In addition, the CEO and Chairman of each club must provide a statutory declaration to the NRL at the beginning and end of each season in support of the club's Salary Cap calculation.

The Salary Cap Auditor monitors each club's Salary Cap position throughout the year based on the information provided by clubs. In addition, the Salary Cap Auditor may perform investigations into the remuneration of players if discrepancies arise. These investigations usually involve the club and its associated entities and cover all payments made and agreements entered into that may result in benefits being provided to players.


refer to link above.

Bottom line for me. We can point fingers all we want. Some Clubs, in particular Easts, do it better than the rest. To appear in a GF on average every 2.5 years is something we would love. I bet you nobody would complain if that was us.

The system ain't perfect and the NRL are not without criticism, but as I said before, without a cap there would be a maximum 10 team comp. Without 3rd party deals, we would be back in court fighting restraint of trade as happened in the past.
 

Belta

Juniors
Messages
1,050
Since the cap was introduced.

1990 Canberra Penrith

1991 Penrith Raiders

1992 Broncos Dragons

1993 Broncos Dragons

1994 Raiders Bulldogs

1995 Bulldogs Manly

1996 Manly Dragons

1997 Knights Manly

1998 Broncos Bulldogs

1999 Storm Dragons

2000 Broncos Roosters

2001 Knights Parra

2002 Roosters Warriors

2003 Penrith Roosters

2004 Bulldogs Roosters

2005 Tigers Cowboys

2006 Broncos Storm

2007 Storm Manly ( stripped of title )

2008 Manly Storm

2009 Storm Parra ( stripped of title )

2010 Dragons Roosters

2011 Manly Warriors

2012 Storm Bulldogs

2013 Roosters Manly

2014 Souths Bulldogs

2015 Cowboys Broncos

2016 Sharks Storm

2017 Storm Cowboys

2018 Roosters Storm

2019 Roosters Raiders

thanks trusaint for correcting, those results show do indicate less dominance than what I was implying, I will say though that not featuring in 5 GFs in the last 22 years indicates they can select strong rosters over an extensive period of time and most likely would of been in contention on the years they missed and not discounting cap breaches and what not, is still somewhat consistent with my point and also the original post was more pertinent as it had a comparison with AFL and showed they had a much more diversity in the success of different teams so you had something similar to make a comparison.

Im not claiming all my opinions are 100% proven fact, (or even close) either and unfortunately a human trait of continually missing out is envy, and if Im guilty of chucking a few toys out of the cot, I ask for leniency based the mental anguish I’ve had to endure, as like the little boy waiting at the corner store I want my turn. - “what about me”
 

Belta

Juniors
Messages
1,050
Love your post Belta, spot on.
I can't understand why the NRL will register a contract for $700K when the market value of a player is clearly $1.1m+ (Tedesco).

All they need to do is independently value each player (maybe a small committee of 4 or 5) and count that value for cap purposes regardless of the actual contract or any third party payments.

If the player wants to receive less because he likes the club or coach or the chance for a title, that's irrelevant to the cap.
If a club wants to pay more that should be irrelevant also....good luck to the player, that's market forces working.

Now that the difference between top and bottom teams is accentuated, it is vital that they enforce a just cap and level the chances for all teams at attracting talent.

This spread of talent is also vital for expansion as there will never be enough talent for additional teams if the strong teams hoard all the best players.

SGMax that makes soo much sense. You Would think in a professional sport moving forward the administrators would do the utmost to be fully transparent. What you suggest would certainly go along way to nullifying questions over the integrity of the clubs. Cant understand why a system like that wouldn’t be imposed.
 

TruSaint

Coach
Messages
18,561
thanks trusaint for correcting, those results show do indicate less dominance than what I was implying, I will say though that not featuring in 5 GFs in the last 22 years indicates they can select strong rosters over an extensive period of time and most likely would of been in contention on the years they missed and not discounting cap breaches and what not, is still somewhat consistent with my point and also the original post was more pertinent as it had a comparison with AFL and showed they had a much more diversity in the success of different teams so you had something similar to make a comparison.

Im not claiming all my opinions are 100% proven fact, (or even close) either and unfortunately a human trait of continually missing out is envy, and if Im guilty of chucking a few toys out of the cot, I ask for leniency based the mental anguish I’ve had to endure, as like the little boy waiting at the corner store I want my turn. - “what about me”

All good mate.

Raising concerns about the NRL system is healthy debate. I honestly think the best recipe for fixing those concerns is addressing blatant systemic issues within our franchise. At the moment, that being the coach, who he can attract, his obvious deficiencies, the boards malpractice in extending him, and so forth.

Im not here to defend the NRL. Just pointing out that the arguments put forward about transparency, rules, cap and third party obligations, are all available for us as fans to review.

For me, rather than getting pissed off at the Chooks, how about we get even and clean up operations at STGI hq.
 

possm

Coach
Messages
13,900
Where's Fuimaono in your team, you stated he was genuine 1st grade material?

We are very long odds to sign Fafita. The Titans offer is massive and something we just couldnt match for a 2nd rower. Also now with the Roosters showing interest why would he come here to our sh*t show, consideringvit would be the same reason he would leave the Broncos
We have suffient cap to top the Titans offer if that is what it takes. We need to replace 'like with like' or better as much as we can. At the moment, Fifita is the only player that I know who can replace Frizell without losing capability. We may also need to do similar if we lose De Belin. We never did replace Ah Mau with a top grade prop and have problems in our backline that will be very difficult to solve in the short term.

The first step is coaching staff and this should happen asap in order to have the time to try and evaluate our current players properly. I would like to see:

NRL Team
1. Ramsey.
2. Ravalawa.
3. Lomax.

4. New Centre.
5. Saab.
6. Sailor.
7. Clune.

8. New Prop.
9. McInnes.
10. Vaughan.
11. T Sims.

12. D Fifita - new recruit.
13. Fuimaono or De Belin if available.


Bench
14. Merrin
15. Kerr

16. New Backrower.
17. Britten

Reserves
1. Schiller
2. Pereira
3. Feagai
4. Williame
5. Feagai

6. Dufty
7. Sullivan
8. K Sims
9. Lovodua
10. Blacker
11. Host
12. Ford
13. H Lomax
14. Junior
15. Junior
16. Junior
17. Junior


Gone
Aitken - 400k
Lafai - 450k
Norman - 800k
Hunt - 900k
De Belin - 550k maybe
Frizell - 500k
Luke - 150k
Graham - 600k
4.25m approx. to spend on new players and upgrades.


Buy
Fifita - 1m
Prop - 800k
Left Centre - 600k
Backrower - 600k

3m
 
Last edited:

possm

Coach
Messages
13,900
Well that answer is a bullseye alright. If Fifita wants to join a club like Easts which is based near Bondi Beach and Fifita has indicated that he would prefer a club near water, and Easts have everything to offer like "always" wanting to win premierships, he would take a pay cut and enter a deal much less than what the Titans would offer. The Gold Coast is also near water but, when is it likely to win a premiership? Where is there parity? There is none and clubs like Easts will continue on their merry way to achieve winning premierships regularly turning people off the game in the end.
Nobody knows what is on Fifita's mind. There is one thing I am certain of and that is his manager will try to sway him towards the highest bid (self interest). But just tonight I heard on fox that Fifita wants to leave the Broncos but is hesitant because he wants to change managers and his current contract with his manager expires in 12 months time. So it is likely - if the Broncos can afford it, he will stay a further year and then move on a five year deal under new management. Fifita has apprently said he wants to go to a team located by the sea/beach. So who can afford him?

Titans
Newcastle
Manly
Easts
Cronulla
Saints


In addition it was said that the Broncos are shopping Bird around in order to obtain enough cap to keep Fifita. Aparantly Bird had an option fpr a further 12 months and took it up. Should Millward nab him for our left centre position?
 

possm

Coach
Messages
13,900
Good question.

The NRL last year made 3rd party deals "public". In addition, they emphasized they had access to bank accounts.

https://www.nrl.com/news/2018/12/13...ents-public-and-strengthens-contract-process/

Now the biggest gripe many have is HOW much a player can earn via 3rd party agreements. The answer is below, and I agree with it. If I am a player limited in salary as a result of a cap, then I shouldn't be restricted to earn whatever I can through other avenues. That is a free market and offsets any discussion of restraint of trade.

What players can earn outside the salary cap

Unlimited - Players can earn unlimited amounts from corporate sponsors who are not associated with the club and who do not use the game's intellectual property (no club logos, jerseys or emblems) provided these are pre-approved by both a Player’s Club and the NRL. These agreements may not be negotiated by the club as an incentive for a player to sign a contract, nor can they be guaranteed by the club.

Other Benefits - Tertiary education fees, approved traineeships, medical insurance costs, relocation/temporary accommodation costs are not included in the cap but must be approved.


https://www.nrl.com/operations/integrity/salary-cap/

Monitoring the 3rd party agreement.

How does the Salary Cap Auditor monitor the Salary Cap?
All NRL player contracts must be lodged with the Salary Cap Auditor. These contracts are reviewed and each player's remuneration is included in the Salary Cap.

In addition, the CEO and Chairman of each club must provide a statutory declaration to the NRL at the beginning and end of each season in support of the club's Salary Cap calculation.

The Salary Cap Auditor monitors each club's Salary Cap position throughout the year based on the information provided by clubs. In addition, the Salary Cap Auditor may perform investigations into the remuneration of players if discrepancies arise. These investigations usually involve the club and its associated entities and cover all payments made and agreements entered into that may result in benefits being provided to players.


refer to link above.

Bottom line for me. We can point fingers all we want. Some Clubs, in particular Easts, do it better than the rest. To appear in a GF on average every 2.5 years is something we would love. I bet you nobody would complain if that was us.

The system ain't perfect and the NRL are not without criticism, but as I said before, without a cap there would be a maximum 10 team comp. Without 3rd party deals, we would be back in court fighting restraint of trade as happened in the past.
Many highly paid employees in the world are highly paid employed on capped salary and forbiden from being employed elswhere at the same time. The salary cap was brought in to even up the teams and re-inforced with a policy that the NRL would fully fund Clubs to the extent of the cap. This policy provides a level of certainty to clubs and players.

But as always greed and deception prevails and so to a large extent the purpose of the cap has been undermined by crooked TPAs.

In my opinion all player salaries and TPAs and 'whole of game' payments should be made public in an effort to silence rumour and fake news regarding club salary caps and players income.

For me, the excuse that such information should be kept private is not good enough as many in the public sector and in corprate Australia are subject to similar scrutiny.
 

Legion

Juniors
Messages
400
Good question.

The NRL last year made 3rd party deals "public". In addition, they emphasized they had access to bank accounts.

https://www.nrl.com/news/2018/12/13...ents-public-and-strengthens-contract-process/

Now the biggest gripe many have is HOW much a player can earn via 3rd party agreements. The answer is below, and I agree with it. If I am a player limited in salary as a result of a cap, then I shouldn't be restricted to earn whatever I can through other avenues. That is a free market and offsets any discussion of restraint of trade.

What players can earn outside the salary cap

Unlimited - Players can earn unlimited amounts from corporate sponsors who are not associated with the club and who do not use the game's intellectual property (no club logos, jerseys or emblems) provided these are pre-approved by both a Player’s Club and the NRL. These agreements may not be negotiated by the club as an incentive for a player to sign a contract, nor can they be guaranteed by the club.

Other Benefits - Tertiary education fees, approved traineeships, medical insurance costs, relocation/temporary accommodation costs are not included in the cap but must be approved.


https://www.nrl.com/operations/integrity/salary-cap/

Monitoring the 3rd party agreement.

How does the Salary Cap Auditor monitor the Salary Cap?
All NRL player contracts must be lodged with the Salary Cap Auditor. These contracts are reviewed and each player's remuneration is included in the Salary Cap.

In addition, the CEO and Chairman of each club must provide a statutory declaration to the NRL at the beginning and end of each season in support of the club's Salary Cap calculation.

The Salary Cap Auditor monitors each club's Salary Cap position throughout the year based on the information provided by clubs. In addition, the Salary Cap Auditor may perform investigations into the remuneration of players if discrepancies arise. These investigations usually involve the club and its associated entities and cover all payments made and agreements entered into that may result in benefits being provided to players.


refer to link above.

Bottom line for me. We can point fingers all we want. Some Clubs, in particular Easts, do it better than the rest. To appear in a GF on average every 2.5 years is something we would love. I bet you nobody would complain if that was us.

The system ain't perfect and the NRL are not without criticism, but as I said before, without a cap there would be a maximum 10 team comp. Without 3rd party deals, we would be back in court fighting restraint of trade as happened in the past.
Thank you for the comprehensive reply @TruSaint

"Players can earn unlimited amounts from corporate sponsors who are not associated with the club ..." Interesting.
 

TruSaint

Coach
Messages
18,561
Thank you for the comprehensive reply @TruSaint

"Players can earn unlimited amounts from corporate sponsors who are not associated with the club ..." Interesting.

Thanks mate, and Yes, you highlight the part of the agreement that is very grey in my honest opinion.

Im sure the smarts of the world have worked out a way to overcome this.
 

Dragon David

Juniors
Messages
2,295
Great game Roosters v Storm. Morris brothers get 3 tries and Tupou destroys the Roosters night against the Storm. Too many handling mistakes by Roosters.

We had the chance against the Roosters if we didn't make the mistakes in the second half last week.
 

Legion

Juniors
Messages
400
Great game Roosters v Storm. Morris brothers get 3 tries and Tupou destroys the Roosters night against the Storm. Too many handling mistakes by Roosters.

We had the chance against the Roosters if we didn't make the mistakes in the second half last week.
Tough game.
Those mistakes cost them. Very unlike Easts.

Golden point blows chunks big time.
Both teams deserved a point after that performance.
A draw is a result [What dickhead introduced GP? Sounds like something Greenberg would do]
 

Gareth67

First Grade
Messages
7,051
Tough game.
Those mistakes cost them. Very unlike Easts.

Golden point blows chunks big time.
Both teams deserved a point after that performance.
A draw is a result [What dickhead introduced GP? Sounds like something Greenberg would do]

I will tell you which pack of dickheads introduced the ‘ golden point ‘ rule matey . It was Peter - know-all - Sterling and Paul Vautin who said the NRL should give it a trial run as it would add an additional element of excitement to the game .

And low and behold the silly fools at the NRL ( at the time ) said - “ Yea sure Sterlo , anything for you mate “ . I distinctly recall the discussion on the footy show one Thursday night and it was only a short time after that conversation the rule was introduced.

Two teams go all out for a win and after 80 minutes they are level pegging then both should both receive 1 competition point - end of story .
 
Last edited:

BLM01

First Grade
Messages
6,467
I will tell you which pack of dickheads introduced the ‘ golden point ‘ rule matey . It was Peter - know-all - Sterling and Paul Vautin who said the NRL should give it a trial run as it would add an additional element of excitement to the game .

And low and behold the silly fools at the NRL ( at the time ) said - “ Yea sure Sterlo , anything for you mate “ . I distinctly recall the discussion on the footy show one Thursday night and it was only a short time after that conversation the rule was introduced.

Two teams go all out for a win and after 80 minutes they are level pegging then both should both receive 1 competition point - end of story .
Maybe true Gazza but the media dont make the decision for them!...or do they...
Little similar to the penalty blitz in 2019? which I enjoyed... and now the whining of the 6 again rule...
the wrestle is slowly coming back..and Melbourne perform the theatrics the best with the leg and arm locks
 

The calm one

Juniors
Messages
942
Good question.

The NRL last year made 3rd party deals "public". In addition, they emphasized they had access to bank accounts.

https://www.nrl.com/news/2018/12/13...ents-public-and-strengthens-contract-process/

Now the biggest gripe many have is HOW much a player can earn via 3rd party agreements. The answer is below, and I agree with it. If I am a player limited in salary as a result of a cap, then I shouldn't be restricted to earn whatever I can through other avenues. That is a free market and offsets any discussion of restraint of trade.

What players can earn outside the salary cap

Unlimited - Players can earn unlimited amounts from corporate sponsors who are not associated with the club and who do not use the game's intellectual property (no club logos, jerseys or emblems) provided these are pre-approved by both a Player’s Club and the NRL. These agreements may not be negotiated by the club as an incentive for a player to sign a contract, nor can they be guaranteed by the club.

Other Benefits - Tertiary education fees, approved traineeships, medical insurance costs, relocation/temporary accommodation costs are not included in the cap but must be approved.


https://www.nrl.com/operations/integrity/salary-cap/

Monitoring the 3rd party agreement.

How does the Salary Cap Auditor monitor the Salary Cap?
All NRL player contracts must be lodged with the Salary Cap Auditor. These contracts are reviewed and each player's remuneration is included in the Salary Cap.

In addition, the CEO and Chairman of each club must provide a statutory declaration to the NRL at the beginning and end of each season in support of the club's Salary Cap calculation.

The Salary Cap Auditor monitors each club's Salary Cap position throughout the year based on the information provided by clubs. In addition, the Salary Cap Auditor may perform investigations into the remuneration of players if discrepancies arise. These investigations usually involve the club and its associated entities and cover all payments made and agreements entered into that may result in benefits being provided to players.


refer to link above.

Bottom line for me. We can point fingers all we want. Some Clubs, in particular Easts, do it better than the rest. To appear in a GF on average every 2.5 years is something we would love. I bet you nobody would complain if that was us.

The system ain't perfect and the NRL are not without criticism, but as I said before, without a cap there would be a maximum 10 team comp. Without 3rd party deals, we would be back in court fighting restraint of trade as happened in the past.
Have a draft. This problem disappears into the wilderness man
 
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