What's new
The Front Row Forums

Register a free account today to become a member of the world's largest Rugby League discussion forum! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Rumours and Stuff

Djay

Juniors
Messages
1,827
Vaughan is and was a worker and focused player that always gave you meters. Evans is an under achiever and so far a wasted talent who rarely hits the line as hard as he should. This myth that Vaughan was average or playing below starting quality output is way off the mark.

Sticky just has a fat for both Boyd and Junior and exercised his right to prioritize them over Vaughan. Our coaches failure was to under value both Junior and Vaughan, probably the best two front rowers in the NRL today, for different reasons, to our teams misfortune.

However my greatest concern is the lack of junior quality coming out of our club, especially in the spine positions and the frontrow. Besides Junior and Hayne, who else have we produced that is beyond a solid to somewhat good player?

I mean junior, not fly ins like Semi. The last great crop was during Haynes junior days and that's a big part of why we made a GF, only to have it stolen from us. My point is, a club like ours should be getting a good wack of its talent from our nursery and then supplementing it with imports. That way we don't have salary issues and players will always want to come and play here due to the all round strength we offer and the benefits it ultimately produces to all.

And as for losing Junior to the Raiders, some may say, hindsight is 20/20, but if you could not see that Junior was the future and king pin of our squad to build the rest of the forwards around and read the papers(being facetious) that the salary cap was always going to rise to accommodate the higher offers, well then you have what we have today. A very ordinary forward pack who try hard but get out muscled by the bigger more aggressive packs.

I keep saying it, but as much as I like Arthur, and I think that he is the man for the job at present, he keeps making rookie mistakes. I remember Cam Smith in a profile interview last year say that when the Storm had an ordinary year by their standards, he and the senior players sat down with the coach and identified their major weakness. It turned out to be SIZE. So they purposefully went out into the market place and bought up BIG. Now if you look at their 2016 GF forward squad, I think from memory that the smallest player 6' 1" but the rest were 6' 3", all the way up to 6' 7" I think of quality forward muscle. As always with the Storm though, the vultures circle and pick off the their low lying fruit, but what are they doing in response? Oh yeah...Kasiano.

We had one, but we let him get away, now we will suffer that decision for at least another year(2018) because there is no one left before that who would fit the bill. So I don't expect to make any real impression on the comp till 2019 at the earliest.

That is not great squad management if you ask me. Look at Manly, I don't really rate Barrett, but he has turned a very ordinary injury riddled and player retirement beset club, into a very good and competitive organization in the space of one year.

We seem to take an eternity to turn our ship around, just like the other Westie losers in the comp, like Tigers and Panthers. I am just so sick of waiting for our team to turn around and become what it should have always been. A power house and watching a good man/coach make boob errors and then reading ne'er do wells like Pou constantly defend those bad decision as some kind of master stroke. Pou you are kidding yourself and have a losers temperament and philosophy.

Unless we make a significant signing in the forwards, then what we currently see is what we will get. We will have our moments, if we ever get our team healthy and all playing together, but we will ultimately struggle against the larger more explosive forward packs. Time to cut some of these backup forwards and sign a animal monster on big bucks. If we don't get one this year and I don't really think we can, I would go all out to get Junior back to play with his mates and childhood club in 2019.
Great post you've summed it up perfectly.

I've been saying it for awhile now, Paulo was a bigger loss then we give credit for he was huge for us and so so versatile in what he did, he bent the line regularly but not only that he has amazing footwork for someone his size and can ball play, what more could you ask for?

Instead some on here continue to insist average plodders because that's what they are like Mannah, Matagi, Alvaro and also Pritchard as a hooker are up to scratch to get us to where we wanna be? No way, who cares about Juniors defence? We supposedly have good working defenders in who I named yet our defence isn't even in the same league to that of last year's efforts, we were a f**king wall and for the first time since I can remember i had faith in what we did to defend a lead.

Also having someone like Paulo bending the line attracts more then 2 defenders every time and not only that but it tires the opposition out, which in turn doesn't let them provide as much gusto in attack because there've been drained from tackling someone so difficult, it's simple logic. I don't see how what we have now is even close to as good as having a huge body and a meter eater.

Like you have said if we do not get a massive body and a decent hooker and I fail to see where we are gonna get that now then we will never ever challenge the top teams or the teams with massive packs, we never win the ruck and rarely ever get over the advantage line, our front row is failing us miserably. I can't believe some think it's good enough because inevitably every week it's why we struggle so badly. Ultimately we have one of the most potent backlines but it never shows, why? Because our forwards simply do not lay a platform plain and simple. Every decent team today has a quality prop and a solid hooker, we have none of that.
 

lingard

Coach
Messages
11,429
Hoffman offers nothing. In 11 games yet to see any sort of magic. Normally on the wing you get a few chances to do something special. He is average size. And we have him for 2 more seasons.
When Normans back Bevan to wing and drop him. Gutherson to back

I'd like to try Hoffman at fullback. It's his favourite position. I'd put Gutho back at centre and French on the wing or reserve grade.
 

Bazal

Post Whore
Messages
103,544
Raiders have a bigger pack then us, yet made less metres then us on Saturday!! Approx 160m less!!

Bigger isn't always better!!

Yeah muppets get fixated on size. Worked real well for us when we signed massive blokes after the 2002 rule changes.....
 

Djay

Juniors
Messages
1,827
Yeah muppets get fixated on size. Worked real well for us when we signed massive blokes after the 2002 rule changes.....
Well what we have now is certainly not working, so what do you suggest then? Please enlighten me.
 

lingard

Coach
Messages
11,429
We can talk all day about what forwards we should sign or keep!!

But really what we need is our spine to really get some games together!!!

Can't remember the last time our spine was settle and we had no injures

That's the answer. I think it's our attack rather than our defence that needs sorting. More tries equals more possession equals less tackling equals more confidence equals a whole lot of things. In the Canberra game, for instance, we had Gutho (who is NOT) a half, and Moses who is a very young half in a brand new team. And French (an inexperienced and grossly over-rated fullback) and Pritchard (an inexperienced and grossly over-rated hooker). You know, Parramatta has been over-achieving so far this year. When Norman comes back and Moses fits in with our game plans, and we get a decent hooker and French either improves or gets replaced; all this talk about props and defence will just fade into the background like the myth that it is.
 

Joshuatheeel

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
20,191
I reckon from what I saw on Saturday night, we may see that having a "smaller" pack will now be a positive with Moses here.

Norman's long kicking game isn't the greatest and it appears most of his kicks only get to 20 line or so.

Moses seems to have a pretty good long kicking game with a lot of his kicks making it to between oppositions try line / 10 m line. This allowed us to be pretty aggressive in defence when the raiders were rucking it out. At times our line speed really increased!! With our "smaller" pack, we may just be able really get some really good field position with Moses kicking game

I like what I saw!!
 
Last edited:

TheRam

Coach
Messages
13,911
Er, no. Sticky started Boyd because of his defence, using Junior and Vaughan in the same ball running role. Vaughan allegedly took exception to being benched and carried on like a prize f**kwit, to the point that Ricky and the Raiders felt his position at the club was untenable. His release had nothing to do with football.

We offered him a very reasonable deal for a talented player who needed a huge kick in the arse, and he essentially agreed to terms before the Dragons came over the top with a much larger offer that we weren't going to match for a player with behavioural issues.

Junior is a shit defender, so "best prop in the game" is something he will never be. We offered him big money for a prop who refuses to tackle, Ricky offered him stupid money.

In today's world of the snowflake mentality, it is always a huge risk when relegating a starting player, who has essentially done nothing wrong to the bench. Especially when you have bought another Junior player in on larger coin to take his place.

The world has moved on. Whether we like it or not, we are heading further down the path of European Soccer and American sports, in professional tissy fits. Players and their managers want it all as do the clubs. We just showed that with the way we took advantage of Moses and the Tigers situation. You can't have it both ways.

Sterlo and people like you are wrong. The game has moved on from total loyalty and players seeing out their contracts. Vaughan and his manager did what was best for him. We should be up to speed with what value a player brings to our club and and what we desperately need and seize the moment and make more right decisions then wrong. Since our coach has been here, what 4 years now, and still struggling to make the playoffs, I tend to think he has made, in crucial situation and positions, the wrong call, to many times.

Watmough, Foran, Paulo and Vaughan in particular. I will go one further and suggest he has erred greatly in resigning Tepai Moeroa as well. I know I have been banging on about him for a while now, but isn't it funny how Sticky zeroed in on our best forward in Junior, and didn't bother with all the hype around Tepai. Well not funny really is it.

Our coach need to get these decision right. No if or buts. The world is full of failed coaches that have a long list of if's and buts. The trick now is, will our coach move on enough surplus to requirements and bag that monster or two that we so desperately need?

He has the remaining season to identify either an up and comer from another team, like say the Roosters did with JWH from Manly or fork out even bigger dollars to nab an established proven metre eater. My opinion at this point is, zero to slim.
 

Bazal

Post Whore
Messages
103,544
Well what we have now is certainly not working, so what do you suggest then? Please enlighten me.

I'm not saying that we don't need a big body or two. I'm saying that people who want an entire pack of Junior Paulo will be the first to bitch about our defence being abysmal, and that our pack is far from being as bad as you and others seem to believe.

Big bodies need to be covered in defence.You need blokes to do that. You need balance. People fail to see that guys like Mannah and Alvaro are just as important as the big bodies.
 

Bazal

Post Whore
Messages
103,544
In today's world of the snowflake mentality, it is always a huge risk when relegating a starting player, who has essentially done nothing wrong to the bench. Especially when you have bought another Junior player in on larger coin to take his place.

The world has moved on. Whether we like it or not, we are heading further down the path of European Soccer and American sports, in professional tissy fits. Players and their managers want it all as do the clubs. We just showed that with the way we took advantage of Moses and the Tigers situation. You can't have it both ways.

Sterlo and people like you are wrong. The game has moved on from total loyalty and players seeing out their contracts. Vaughan and his manager did what was best for him. We should be up to speed with what value a player brings to our club and and what we desperately need and seize the moment and make more right decisions then wrong. Since our coach has been here, what 4 years now, and still struggling to make the playoffs, I tend to think he has made, in crucial situation and positions, the wrong call, to many times.

Watmough, Foran, Paulo and Vaughan in particular. I will go one further and suggest he has erred greatly in resigning Tepai Moeroa as well. I know I have been banging on about him for a while now, but isn't it funny how Sticky zeroed in on our best forward in Junior, and didn't bother with all the hype around Tepai. Well not funny really is it.

Our coach need to get these decision right. No if or buts. The world is full of failed coaches that have a long list of if's and buts. The trick now is, will our coach move on enough surplus to requirements and bag that monster or two that we so desperately need?

He has the remaining season to identify either an up and comer from another team, like say the Roosters did with JWH from Manly or fork out even bigger dollars to nab an established proven metre eater. My opinion at this point is, zero to slim.

You're one of those people that would happily see us sign a bloke like Vaughan no matter the cost and then bitch when he either pisses off and carries on like a tool again, or when his money costs us other players.

You cannot offer players more than they are worth and then expect to compete as a side over the long term. The Dragons have already lost Dugan because they are paying guys like Vaughan and Hunt overs. Just because you believe (in hindsight) that Vaughan is worth huge money doesn't make BA wrong for not matching a massive offer.
 

oldmancraigy

Coach
Messages
11,966
Retrospect is 20/20. He was obviously our best prop, but he wasn't averaging 150-200 metres per game, nor 60 minutes per game at the time the Raiders tapped him up. 550k at the time was hardly lowballing him. And of course, he was facing criminal charges at the time.

Yeah he was.

I said it at the time when some were bagging him as a low minute impact player. He was 60ish minutes quite often.

I wouldn't have paid 750k tho. Not convinced the elite teams do that with props. Dunno how they have the elite props for less than that, but it appears to be the way it goes
 

Joshuatheeel

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
20,191
we had more possession so we should make more metres, simples

Did we?

We had 36 sets each, they completed 28 and us 31, so we probably got a few more tackles but not a lot more.

They also got 7 penalties compared to our 5.

Additionally, I don't have stats but it appears we may have had a few tackles attacking their line, so we would have had limited ability to make metres in these sets.

So overall we probably have had the similar amount of carries.

Also don't forget they had some 7 tackle sets.
 
Last edited:

Bazal

Post Whore
Messages
103,544
Yeah he was.

I said it at the time when some were bagging him as a low minute impact player. He was 60ish minutes quite often.

I wouldn't have paid 750k tho. Not convinced the elite teams do that with props. Dunno how they have the elite props for less than that, but it appears to be the way it goes

Because the elite props are usually brought through juniors (Klemmer, Bormwich, Scott) or poached as juniors (Fifita, JWH). It's much easier to keep a player for unders than to sign one for unders.

Incidentally, who was the last truly elite prop to change clubs at their peak?
 

TheRam

Coach
Messages
13,911
Raiders have a bigger pack then us, yet made less metres then us on Saturday!! Approx 160m less!!

Bigger isn't always better!!


But when it counted and why they won, is they went right up the middle. Didn't say they were a smart team, they only started to lose the advantage when they decided to go around us and play fancy. But it was still good enough to be us. When their big boys took control we had nothing to counter them with.

Game set and match...they won.
 
Messages
13,876
I reckon from what I saw on Saturday night, we may see that having a "smaller" pack will now be a positive with Moses here.

Norman's long kicking game isn't the greatest and it appears most of his kicks only get to 20 line or so.

Moses seems to have a pretty good long kicking game with a lot of his kicks making it to between oppositions try line / 10 m line. This allowed us to be pretty aggressive in defence when the raiders were rucking it out. At times our line speed really increased!! With our "smaller" pack, we may just be able really get some really good field position with Moses kicking game

I like what I saw!!
Moses kicked early in the count a couple of times which i liked against a big pack, kick on tackle 3 in your own 40 and make them turn and go back again, one time we kick on tackle 4 and it took til tackle 4 for most of the raiders fowards to get back onside, need to do it again this friday against the bunnies.
 

TheRam

Coach
Messages
13,911
Yeah muppets get fixated on size. Worked real well for us when we signed massive blokes after the 2002 rule changes.....

It's not what we're talking about on its own, smart arse and you know it, or at least you should, or every coach would just go out and buy 10 sumo giants. It's all about size AND ability/talent. The rest is just noise.
 

oldmancraigy

Coach
Messages
11,966
Because the elite props are usually brought through juniors (Klemmer, Bormwich, Scott) or poached as juniors (Fifita, JWH). It's much easier to keep a player for unders than to sign one for unders.

Incidentally, who was the last truly elite prop to change clubs at their peak?

Justin Poore???

Ah crud.
 

hineyrulz

Post Whore
Messages
154,276
Because the elite props are usually brought through juniors (Klemmer, Bormwich, Scott) or poached as juniors (Fifita, JWH). It's much easier to keep a player for unders than to sign one for unders.

Incidentally, who was the last truly elite prop to change clubs at their peak?
Steve Price??? Petro was probably past his best when he went to Penrith.

Some may say Tamou but I don't class him as elite.
 
Top