Rumsfeld-Is this Guy Playing With A Full Deck?

[El Duque]

The UN do inspections on the USA.

 

[dubopov]

You're kidding El Duque !!.....They obviously would've found a HUGE nuclear arsenal AND biological weapons such as ANTHRAX which was stolen from US Govt bases by Right Wing Christians and used on their own people..

 

[El Duque]

OK, I'm kidding.

Whatever answer makes you happy.

 

[CanadianSteve]

Add to that recent comments on Christian Fundamentalists and there's the motivation !!
ANTHRAX which was stolen from US Govt bases by Right Wing Christians and used on their own people..

Just for the record, these right-wing extremist groups in no way represent Christianity, and it is a misnomer to call them Christian. I know some of them might say they are Christians, or twist the bible to support their crazy views, but they are not following Christianity. To use the term fundamentalist Christians correctly, it just means Christians who believe in the fundamentals of the Bible, which include thou shall not kill. Right-wing extremists like those who bombed Oklahoma City, or the Aryan Nation types have nothing to do with Christianity.

 

[CanadianSteve]

I don't mean to send this thread in the direction of Thoughts on Society, I just want to clarify and leave it at that.

 

[Willow]

You're right Steve.
Christian extremists are not following Christ...they are simply twisting it to suit their own ideals. I agree that this is not christianity as it was intended.

The same is often said about Muslims. Many Islamic leaders distance themselves from Muslim extremists and point out that these fundametalists are not following Islam as it was intended.

It is regrettable that the western media portrays Christian extremists as not being real Christians but cannot offer the same insulation to Muslims. Would you agree?

IMO, the differences between Christians and Muslims is one factor that is being used to stir people into a war frenzy.

 

[CanadianSteve]

After Sept 11, there was a lot of talk in the US about how not all Muslims are terrorists. This was in reaction to the abuse that some US mosques and other Muslim groups and people took. Like him or not, Pres. Bush took pains several times that I heard to tell Americans not to pick on all Moslems.

It is regrettable that the western media portrays Christian extremists as not being real Christians but cannot offer the same insulation to Muslims. Would you agree? I don't think the Western media does make the distinction about Christians very well. I find quite often the media does what I was referring to in post 64, using terms like right-wing Christian extremists without explaining the difference.

I agree that not all Muslims are violent terrorists, most are peaceful people. I recall way back on the WTC thread some posters, not me, suggested that there may be something in the Islamic religion itself that tends toward using violence if necessary. We often hear it said that all religions are the same, wanting peace and love towards our fellow man. I'm not sure that's true of Islam, but I don't know enough about it to say for sure.

 

[Willow]

Steve: Most of us have met violent people before. They could be Christian or Muslim... But I always thought they were just pricks. Their religion is irrelevant.

The point I was making was that the media, fanned by governments and corporations, is trying to heighten hatred between two religious groups -this creates divisions and therefore manufactures more support for war.

So many wars wars have been fought in the name of God when the ulterior motive wasfor greed andpower. We're seeing it happen again.

"Like him or not, Pres. Bush took pains several times that I heard to tell Americans not to pick on all Moslems."
I saw that on TV.. we get Pres Bush every day in Australia. Shame hisopponents don't get the same coverage.
These comments from Bushare justlip service. I point to an article which you yourself published on this forum...from the Toronto nespaper I recall. It contained an open letter from Bush to all Muslims. It was a cleverly worded letter designed to make him look accomodating.
But in reality, it was cynical and patronising and basically held Muslim leaders responsible for the troubles we are having now. It may have been a letter addressed to Muslims but it was clearly aimed at his western allies.
You see, President George may say the right things to the media but behind the scenes he is trying to garnish support for a war against Islam. He's actions speak louder than any words he produces for the cameras.

We shouldn't forget that for some weeks after Sept 11, Bush called it a 'crusade' well before bin Laden called it 'Jihad'... Bush's Crusade was then called a 'war against terrorism'... with Arabs being the target.

It is regrettable that the western media portrays Christian extremists as not being real Christians but cannot offer the same insulation to Muslims. Would you agree?- Willow
I don't think the Western media does make the distinction about Christians very well. I find quite often the media does what I was referring to in post 64, using terms like right-wing Christian extremists without explaining the difference. - Canadian Steve
Thats not what I meant. I'll say it in more casual terms.... christianity gets a fairgo through the media whileMuslims get the rough end of the stick. Whaddya reckon?

"not all Muslims are violent terrorists, most are peaceful people."
and...
"We often hear it said that all religions are the same, wanting peace and love towards our fellow man. I'm not sure that's true of Islam"
Two statements with opposite interpretations.
For the life of me, I don't how people can think that Islam is more or less violent than Christianity.
Take the Koran and the Bible for example. Both advocate peace towards each other. In fact, the bible suggests harsher punishments to those who are not of the faith.
The Islamic faith is in essence a peaceful system of belief...just like Christianity is supposed to be.

"I don't know enough about it to say for sure."
I think you're right there mate. I can only assume CNN is leading you think that average Muslims citizens are prone to hurting their fellow man.

 

[El Duque]

Just drop the bombs already, George!

from www.smh.com.au


Bush blasts UN amid warning war almost only option&lt;/HEADLINE> &lt;DATE>January 22 2003 US President George W Bush today scolded UN nations that are demanding more time to search Iraq for illegal arms, and a top US diplomat warned that war is fast approaching as America's only option. "This business about more time - how much time do we need to see clearly that he's not disarming?" Bush said, acknowledging frustration with both Iraqi President Saddam Hussein and reluctant US allies like France and Germany. "Surely our friends have learned lessons from the past. Surely, we have learned how this man deceives and delays," Bush said. "This looks like a re-run of a bad movie, and I'm not interested in watching it." With tens of thousands of US troops massed near Iraq, the president is expected to decide in a matter of weeks whether to end diplomatic efforts and wage war. "Our other options are just about exhausted at this point," said Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage in a Washington speech cleared by the White House. "This regime has very little time left to undo the legacy of 12 years. There is no sign, there is not one sign that the regime has any intent to comply fully" with the United Nations. France complicated Bush's task by telling the United Nations Security Council there is no reason yet for military action, hinting it may veto any resolution authorising an attack. Other nations - including Russia, Germany, China and Chile - have backed the French contention that UN inspections are starting to work and Iraq can be disarmed peacefully. Britain, America's closest ally, is the only major military power committed to joining the United States. Other countries with smaller armies, such as Australia, Canada and Bulgaria, could play supporting roles in a "coalition of the willing" that Bush has pledged to lead if the United Nations won't join him. The Bush administration says Iraq is hiding weapons of mass destruction beneath the desert and in mobile facilities. Though no proof has been made public, Armitage said the 16 empty chemical warheads discovered recently in Iraq are the tip of the iceberg. "Where are the other 29,984? Because that's how many empty chemical warheads the UN Special Commission estimated he had, and he's never accounted for," Armitage said. "And where are the 550 artillery shells that are filled with mustard gas, and the 400 biological weapons ... and the 26,000 litres of anthrax, the botulism, the VX (nerve agent), the sarin gas that the UN says he has?" Armitage said. "Some people may say there is no smoking gun, but there's nothing but smoke," the diplomat said. "To put this fire out, Saddam is going to have to work." White House officials said Armitage's argument previewed the case Bush will make against Saddam in next week's State of the Union address. They said Bush won't declare war or impose a deadline next Tuesday night, and they played down the prospects of new evidence being revealed. While the president said Saddam has "been given ample time to disarm," he gave no hint of how soon he would decide whether diplomacy has run its course. "Time is running out. I believe, in the name of peace, he must disarm. And we will lead a coalition of willing nations to disarm him," he said. "The world came together, including the French, to say he must disarm. He is not disarming," Bush said. "As a matter of fact, it appears to be a re-run of a bad movie. He is delaying. He's deceiving. He's asking for time. He's playing hide-and-seek with inspectors." AP &lt;/BOD><br clear=all>

 

[imported_JoeD]

the media, fanned by governments and corporations, is trying to heighten hatred between two religious groups

Very good point that it is the media that instigates a lot of fear and paranoia in the world and especially in america. In the movie I mentioned earlier, "Bowling for Columbine" Mike Moore, the maker of the doco,wanted to know why americans killed themselves with guns so much more readily than canadians. His assumption was that it was just that there were more guns in the US than in canada. Statistics say that per capita he is wrong, there are plenty of guns in Canada as well. the main difference between the 2 countries is what is shown on the news every night at 6. In the US although crime had dropped by 40% reporting of crime had increased by 600%. The media was making everyone scared and paranoid so that americans were shooting first and asking questions later.

 

[CanadianSteve]

I don't think the Western media does make the distinction about Christians very well. I find quite often the media does what I was referring to in post 64, using terms like right-wing Christian extremists without explaining the difference. - Canadian Steve
Thats not what I meant. I'll say it in more casual terms.... christianity gets a fairgo through the media whileMuslims get the rough end of the stick. Whaddya reckon? - Willow

I reckon Christianity does not always get a fair go in the media. My perception is that Muslims are treated with respect by the media. Maybe because the Canadian media tends to be more liberal than the US's.

For the life of me, I don't how people can think that Islam is more or less violent than Christianity.
Take the Koran and the Bible for example. Both advocate peace towards each other. What do you mean here? In fact, the bible suggests harsher punishments to those who are not of the faith. There are harsh punishments in the Old Testament for crimes. In the NT you couldn't find any hint of advocating violence against other religions.
The Islamic faith is in essence a peaceful system of belief... As I said, I don't know enough about Islam to say. But my understanding is that Muhammad himself was a man who fought wars. And the Palestinian bombers and other terrorists seem to claim that they are going to heaven as martyrs. Is this a true representation of Islamic belief? I don't know.

"I don't know enough about it to say for sure."
I think you're right there mate. I can only assume CNN is leading you think that average Muslims citizens are prone to hurting their fellow man. No, I already said in my earlier post that "I agree that not all Muslims are violent terrorists, most are peaceful people." I was just questioning whether there is a warlike side to Islam. Do you really know the Koran well, or are you just repeating generalities that it's a peaceful religion?

I watch CNN sometimes, btw, but I watch Canadian news more, especially the CBC. It's pretty liberal, as I said, and we get plenty of coverage of the anti-war side of the current situation.

 

[CanadianSteve]

JoeD: That's an interesting comparison of the US and Canada. Yet many Canadians watch US local news shows. I can watch 3 different Buffalo channels every night if I want. I don't think it's just the media. The US has a long history of violence and guns - they fought a war to become an independent country, they fought a Civil War, they have a whole history of guns and cowboys in the American west.

BTW, Canada does have stricter gun control laws than the US. They are harder to buy legally in Canada. In the last 2 years our federal government brought in an even stronger gun control law. Every gun had to be registered in a national registry, even guns that farmers and hunters had owned for years. Now there is a big political scandal as it has come out that the gun registry computer system, which was supposed to cost about $1 million, has run into the hundreds of millions with no explanation. A cabinet minister had to resign over it, and they still don't have a handle on the costs.

 

[SpaceMonkey]

Steve, as you say certain parts of the Bible, (generally Old Testament) advocate harsh and violent treatment of others. However not all Christians choose to interpret these passages as literal or relevant. The same is true of the Koran, depending on interpretation, scripture can be construed to permit or encourage violent behaviour towards enemies, or to abhor it.

 

[CanadianSteve]

That makes sense, Spacemonkey. Thanks.

 

[Willow]

Steve, if the Canadian media is giving the Muslims a fair chop then its to be commended. Turn on the news here and we get a PM echoing everything that George Bush says.

This is reflected in a bad press for any Muslims whenever the opportunity arises.

As a result, Mosques have been attacked (and fire bombed), women have had their veils forcibly removed.. one high profileChristian senator even said that they could be concealing weapons under their garments.

All in all we have an atmosphere of mistrust. The PM...just like the pres George, says the right things to the media but he hasnt said much lately other than to point out that Iraq are our enemy.

"There are harsh punishments in the Old Testament for crimes. In the NT you couldn't find any hint of advocating violence against other religions."

Well I have to disagree with that....Hell doesnt sound too comfy...lol.

Its a mute point because Christian protagonists say that Muslims are violent but seem to forget that the bible says that non-believers are damned to the firey pits hell for eternity.

Traditionally, the Christian God used to say that non-believers and their offspring would die while the Muslim God says that non-believers and their offspring should only be enslaved... both are pretty gruesome and imo both have violent histories. I don'tmake excuses for any religion.

"my understanding is that Muhammad himself was a man who fought wars"
Possibly... but along with Abraham, Moses and Jesus; Muhammad was an advocate of peace... according toIslamic belief, they promoted peaceamongst all men during their different times on Earth.
Like you, I'm not up on it but my understanding was the he led 1000 people (around about 600AD) on a pilgrimage and this turned into something of an uprising. I also understand that his followers fought to gain sovereigntyfrom invading forces. I don't think he was a war monger or anything.
I'd say the Crusades were more bloody.

But thats was then and this is now. We still haven't learned athing imo. We still want to fight people who we know bugger-all about.
No good will come from a war with Iraq.

 

[imported_JoeD]

The US has a long history of violence and guns

I agree with you there Steve but no more of a violent history than say, Germany, or Russia yet gun murders in those countries are no where near the levels of those in the US.

 

[imported_JoeD]

No good will come from a war with Iraq.

Couldn't have put it better myself. Bush claims to be a christian man. The fundamentals of christianity are the ten commandments. Probably the most important commandment and one that is echoed in every other religion in the world is that killing another person is wrong. In short, Killing is SIN. If and when the US invades Iraq a lot of people will be killed. Have religious leaders come out in opposition to the war? I'd be very interested to hear if any have.

 

[HIPEYE]

THE RUSSANS HAVE LET THE CAT OUT OF THE BAG FEBRURY THE 23 THE U.S.A WILL GO IN TO IRAQ, THEYWANT TO CONTROL ALL THE OIL, GOD BLESS AMERICA

 

[imported_midas]

Willow
In Sydney there has been one mosque set fire to (not fire bombed) and maybe someone ,somewhere may have had their veil removed forcibly but the vast majority of Muslim people in Sydney are getting about their lives without any interference .I see this every day in many areas so it,s not just media bullshit.Yesterday I did some business with a Muslim coupleand she had the full regalia with only a slit for the eyes,and I asked them the question about harassment.They had no problems at all and seemed very cheerful.
Perhaps you are in the same boat you inferred Canadian Steve is in-influenced by the media up there in the sanitised environment of the GC.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

F America

They think somehow that they have earnt the right to control the world, override a global collalition all to serve themselves. F*ck them. I support the troops and hope not a single one dies, but the Government should get shot for supporting this war. Its a disgrace, and if we could collectively, just remove ourselves from up America's arse (just for a few minutes), we may realise that we have no business and nothing to gain from going into Iraq.

Good on Germany and France for not supporting them. Full marks to them. Its a pity that we aren't following suit. It was just a set-up from the start. The whole "War on Terror" was just a name used so that the US had reason to go back into Iraq again. Its a bloodyy joke. And it will be bloody, make no mistake, the US wouldnt send all that over there if they wern't going to use it. You know how much it costs per day to keep all those aircraft carriers and other things in the Gulf? Shitloads.

Disgraceful. Another reason perhaps why we should be a republic. Remove ourselves a bit from the 100 year orgy we have had with GB and America




Moffo