Rumsfeld-Is this Guy Playing With A Full Deck?

[GENERAL ONEYE]

<span>Thursday, 30 January, 2003, 15:50 GMT</span> Mandela condemns US stance on Iraq

Mandela met Iraq's Tariq Aziz in Johannesburg last year


Former South African president Nelson Mandela has criticised US President George W Bush over Iraq, saying the sole reason for a possible US-led attack would be to gain control of Iraqi oil. The US stance on Iraq is "arrogant" and would cause "a holocaust", Mr Mandela, a Nobel Peace laureate and one of the world's most respected figures, told a forum in Johannesburg. <table cellspacing=0 cellpadding=3 width=150 align=right bgcolor=#ffffcc border=0> <tbody> <tr> <td>

They just want the oil. We must expose this as much as possible

<br clear=all> Nelson Mandela


</td></tr></tbody></table>He also said UK Prime Minister Tony Blair - who supports Washington over Iraq - was in fact the "US prime minister". Mr Mandela, 84, accused both the US and UK governments of undermining the United Nations. "Why does the United States behave so arrogantly?" Mr Mandela asked. "Their friend Israel has got weapons of mass destruction but because it's their ally they won't ask the United Nations to get rid of them. "They just want the oil," Mr Mandela went on. "We must expose this as much as possible." Consistent attacks Nelson Mandela called Mr Bush "a president who can't think properly and wants to plunge the world into holocaust". <table cellspacing=3 cellpadding=3 width=150 align=right border=0> <tbody> <tr> <td>

Mbeki is due to meet Blair at the weekend

</td></tr></tbody></table> He said war "would be devastating not just to Iraq but also to the whole of the Middle East and to other countries of the world". Mr Mandela added that both Mr Bush and Tony Blair were undermining the United Nations. "Is this because the secretary general of the United Nations [Ghanaian Kofi Annan] is now a black man? They never did that when secretary generals were white," he said. Mr Mandela has consistently voiced strong opposition against a possible war on Iraq - in line with more diplomatic statements issued by the South African Government. On Tuesday, a spokesman for President Thabo Mbeki told the BBC that said higher oil prices brought on by any Middle East war would condemn Africa to deep economic crisis. Mr Mbeki is preparing to leave for Britain to meet Tony Blair at the weeken WHAT A PISS ANT COMMO

 

[imported_JoeD]

Messages That Appeared on Buttons and Signs
at Saturday's Demonstration in D.C.
1) These colors don't run the world.
2) One nation under surveillance.
3) How did our oil get under their sand?
4) Go Solar, not Ballistic.
5) Who would Jesus bomb?
6) Start Drafting SUV Drivers Now.
7) Don't blame me -- I voted with the majority.
8) Buck Fush!
9) It's NUCLEAR, not NUCULAR, you idiot!
10) One goose-step, two goose-steps . . .
11) Resistance is Fertile.
12) On a picture of sheep carrying flags: Stop Mad Sheep Disease.
13) On a U.F.W. sign: Pick Fruit, not Fights.
14) On a five year old: More Candy, Less War.
15) Say can you see my democracy?
16) With picture of Bush, Cheney &amp; Rumsfeld: The Asses of Evil.
17) IT'S THE OIL, STUPID!
18) War is expensive; peace is priceless.
19) READ BETWEEN THE PIPELINES.
20) No More Bush-it!
21) Smart weapons. Dumb president.
22) The only thing we have to fear is Bush himself.
23) How many lives per gallon?
24) Peace Takes Brains.
25) Anything war can do, peace can do better.
26) Negotiation, Not Annihilation.
27) Make touchdowns, not war. Go Raiders!
28) Another patriot for peace.
29) Oh Say, can You Cease?
30) Star Spangled Bummer
31) The President is a Real Son of a Bush!
32) Don't do it, George. Poppy will still love you.
33) Power to the Peacemakers.
34) The last time a nation listened to a Bush, they wandered in the desert
for forty years.
35) To the people of Earth: Don't blame us. We voted for the other guy.

 

[imported_JoeD]

A bit of humour on the subject. For the whole article go here: http://www.theonion.com/onion3903/un_orders_wonka.html
"For years, Wonka has hidden the ominous doings of his research and development facility from the outside world," U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan said. "Given the reports of child disappearances, technological advances in glass-elevator transport, and Wonka-run Oompa-Loompa forced-labor camps, the time has come to put an end to three decades of secrecy in the Wonka Empire."

 

[imported_midas]

The anti-american campaign has plumbed new depths.Nelson Mandela stated that the US wanted to invade Iraq because "Iraq has 64% of the world,s oil"-not a press report ,I have seen it on TV 5 times.Iraq has 10% of the worlds oil.Now if Bush,Blair or Howard had made this gaffe,the media and the anti-American posters would have been all over him like a rash,but because he is Mandela and because he is anti-american,it suits them to ignore it.
Nelson may well be an icon but a dumb statement is a dumb statement.
Despite Iraq,s 10% of the world,s current production,oil discovery rate measured against the usage rate is now 205% i.e. for every barrell used ,two barrells are being discovered.
Yet the oil conspiracy theory keeps going.

 

[Willow]

"The anti-american campaign has plumbed new depths.."
Mandela is merely saying what many / most people think. Please explain how this call for peace is sinking to a low depth?

""Iraq has 64% of the world,s oil"-not a press report ,I have seen it on TV 5 times.Iraq has 10% of the worlds oil.Now if Bush,Blair or Howard had made this gaffe,the media and the anti-American posters would have been all over him like a rash,but because he is Mandela and because he is anti-american,it suits them to ignore it."
What a load of crap.
Nelson Mandela's '64%' comments were wrong...but lets get real... it was statement of error and onewhich was corrected in the same article.

Iraq has the second biggest oil fields in the world... what difference does it make about the percentage?
Surely,Mandelamade a minor indiscretion. Did you take a lookat the more relevant parts of his speech?
It embarrassing to think that someone could pull out a simple error and try and use itto launch an argument against the man. But this is what people do when trying to discredit others who dare to disagree.


Bush toohas said some amazing gaffes andthey're never heard of again.
I recall one recently when he said words to the effect, 'Even if Iraq don't have weapons of mass destruction, they may be thinking about [manufacturing] them in the future. So we must be the first to act.'
This absurd (and politically damaging) statement was removed from all subsequent press reports...an indication as to how much control the powers have over the media.

The difference between gaffes made by Bush and gaffes made by Mandelaare prettystraight forward... Bush has the power to f*ck up the world !

"Yet the oil conspiracy theory keeps going...."
It is no conspiracy...its bleeding bloody obvious.

Simple questions...
What threat does Iraq pose to the rest of the world?
And what threat does Iraq pose to Australia and New Zealand?

 

[El Duque]

And to those that think the Oil theory is crap

US buys up Iraqi oil to stave off crisis

 

[imported_midas]

thanks for that post ,El duque.Unlike others who can only justify the oil conspiracy theory with statements like "it,s bleedin bloody obvious",you,ve provided some economic facts.
The supply and demand thing had (has) me convinced that oil is only a side issue in this dispute ,but a production cost of $1 a barrell (if it,s right.)does throw a whole new light on the theory.I am currently working my way through another couple of articles on the subject (heavy going this economic bullshit.) and while my original beliefs are still standing,the foundations may be getting a bit shakey.

 

[Willow]

"Unlike others who can only justify the oil conspiracy theory with statements like "it,s bleedin bloody obvious",you,ve provided some economic facts."
Don't be f*ckwit midas... its not something that fits you well.
If you read the whole thread, you'll see that I've gone to great lengths and typedhundreds of wordsto explain my view regarding the oil factor.

While I'll always try to besympathetic to anyone's attention span, I do ask that you try and keep up on this one common issue that has dominated this thread.

"while my original beliefs are still standing,the foundations may be getting a bit shakey."
No kidding...

 

[Willow]

Regarding my 'Oil theory', I refer to the following posts:
# 4
# 7
# 11
# 13
# 25
# 33
# 44
#115

...some of which you replied to... mind you, some entries were made over a week ago.
Still, itsinteresting to see that some of yourposts revolve around such things as where we live andwho Fred Nile is and what Nelson Mandela may have said.. all very important when looking towards the big picture.

And in all this, I'm still waiting for someone to give me a reason why we should invade Iraq.
???

Thebest reason we've had so far is because its what America wants.

 

[imported_midas]

Well I,ve reviewed your posts and am none the wiser.
Posts #4,7.11,13-facts,what facts? Just the unsubstantiated oil conspiracy line.
Post #25-facts-incorrect facts.
Post #33-facts -incorrect facts."they ripped everybody off and then tell us to go and fight a war for them" The oil crisis of 73 was engineered by Middle Eastern oil producers (who were getting ripped off beforehand -$2,.50 a barrell)
I dont remember them telling us to go and fight a war for them.
Post #44 -interesting.Some relevant facts.good one.
Post #115-facts-what facts?

Two other posts.
Post #45.I am eternally grateful.How would we poor uneducated slobs ever recognize sarcasm unless it was pointed out to us by the great oracle?
Post #68.To Canadian Steve."I think you,re right there mate,CNN is leading you think (sic) that average Muslim citizens are prone to hurting their fellow man."
How patronising and condescending can you get ?Steve is obviously brainwashed because his views don,t coincide with yours .Surprisingly Steve didn,t take offence .remarkably tolerant man.
The Nile thing was my objection to an attempt to embellish an argument with an untruth.You claim to have made an error-OK,I accept that.
The Mandela thing was an objection to the way his statement was gleefully hailed as being important.Relevant parts-what relevant parts? A gaffe over oil production levels and an attempt to introduce the race card.Nothing else that hadn,t been said before and nothing to enlighten any of us.
Lastly "Don,t be a f*wit,Midas." That,s the stuff,resort to personal abuse at every opportunity.I suppose that,s one of the benefits of these fora-face to face I wouldn,t cop that from a pseudo-intellectual bigot.
As for your question you,re still waiting to have answered the answer is quite simply that if Iraq pose a threat to World peace then the Us should invade.Whether they do pose3 a threat is what is difficult for us poor dumbos to work out .Never mind ,I,m sure the Oracle will enlighten us in the fullness of time.

 

[Willow]

midas. Obviously you're not going to agree with everything I say and its entirely your choice how youdecide to react. However, I can't see the reason for petty name calling.
You seem to be keen to drop the discussion intoother issues - once again, thats your prerogative.

I was referring to your view that I '...can only justify the oil conspiracy theory with statements like "it,s bleedin bloody obvious"'
My point is that I've been pretty consistent on this. You inferred that I made just one throw away line.

"Post #68.To Canadian Steve."I think you,re right there mate,CNN is leading you think (sic) that average Muslim citizens are prone to hurting their fellow man." How patronising and condescending can you get ?"
I'm at a loss as to why you brought that up.
Apart from the fact that I'm sure Steve is more than capable for speaking for himself, I cannot see anything offensive in the context of the statement. You're being touchy on someone else's behalf which is puzzling to say the least.

""Don,t be a f*wit,Midas." That,s the stuff,resort to personal abuse at every opportunity."
You're overeacting. Firstly, I do not offer 'personal abuse at every opportunity' and secondly, you conveniently left out the the other bit when I said, '... its not something that fits you well.'
I guess it depends if you're looking for relevance in a debate or just reasons to get pissed off.

My understanding is we arearguingabout a conflict on the other side of the world. Correct me if I'm wrong. Perhaps we can direct our debate to the issues at hand rather than at each other.

I still havent been convinced that it's a neccessary war. I do not see how Iraq are a threat to world peace and I don't see what good will come out of an invasion. All it will do is create more divisions in the world and widen the gap between the haves and the have nots.

 

[ONEYE]

YOU WILL GIVE UP SADMAN JUST LIKE THE RUSSANS DID"Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!"
- Ronald Reagan During World War II, the world united against fascism but at the end of the conflict, the USSR emerged as the new enemy. Therefore, it was decided that Germany would be split in two. A wall was eventually erected in the middle of Berlin to keep the citizens of the East from escaping. The Wall became a symbol of communist tyranny. With the possibility of a nuclear war between the Soviets and NATO still looming, President Reagan gave a speech June 12, 1987, in West Berlin. Taking advantage of new openness in Moscow, he spoke against communism and called for the destruction of the Berlin Wall. It was ultimately opened in 1989 and torn down in 1990.

 

This message has been deleted due to termination of membership.

 

This message has been deleted by the manager or assistant manager.

 

[imported_JoeD]

For those of you who think the US are going to invade Iraq for the good of the world here is the opinion of a former US defence dept analyst and Auckland University lecturer writing for the NZ Herald.

. . . whether or not the UN weapons inspectors find evidence of WMD stockpiling in Iraq (and many believe that they will not, since intelligence analysts believe these were moved to Syria well in advance of recent UN security council resolutions), the US is determined to show Saddam the door at the point of a bayonet in order to install a pro-Western secular regime that will open up its oil reserves to the US and its allies. for the whole article : http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=3099063&amp;thesection=news&amp;thesubsection=dialogue

 

This message has been deleted due to termination of membership.

 

[Willow]

Thanks for the quote, Joe.
Former US defence dept analyst : "the US is determined to show Saddam the door at the point of a bayonet in order to install a pro-Western secular regime that will open up its oil reserves to the US and its allies. "
With these sort of comments coming out (from people with first hand experience), its hard to imagine how anyone can write-off concerns as being merely 'oil conspiracy theories'.

How many more people have to make this point before governements take notice. Or is the former US defence dept analyst another one of these pseudo-intellectual bigots' that we've heard so much about?

 

[CanadianSteve]

I'm confused now. Is it an oil conspiracy or a Jewish conspiracy? Do the two theories tie together or are they mutually exclusive?

Post 136 doesn't make clear why Israel wants the US to fight Iraq. Don't the Israelis have closer neighbours who are more of a threat to them?

Can someone who's not brainwashed by CNN explain this?

 

[Willow]

post # 136 .. someone who looks like eye... is one of those marathon posts and a mighty size at that.
I'd like to say that the term 'oil conspiracy' suggests that its not based on fact. IMO, oil being the reason for war has more facts backing it up then the 'weapons of mass destruction' conspiracy/theory.
The Jewish thing is only relevant because Israel is an ally of the USA and both nations are at war with certain Arab peoples.
The Israelis want access to the oil fields as well.

 

[come and see me big boy]

War may be Hell, but its Good for Business I think a very good way to avoid dealing with domestic economic problems is to have a war on foreign soil. People stop worrying so much about economic prosperity when they are worrying about their sons and daughters being killed in battle.
Plus, there is nothing like "defense" spending to provide a shot in the arm to an ailing economy.