Rumsfeld-Is this Guy Playing With A Full Deck?

[Willow]

Monster Ziggy Eye, Its not hard if you put in the effort...
This is your message (# 99) without the monster scrolling:
<table cellspacing=0 cellpadding=5 border=0> <tbody> <tr> <td width=500 bgcolor=#999966>Hussein, Saddam </td> <td align=middle width=100 bgcolor=#cccc99>1937 -- </td></tr> <tr> <td class=bio_body bgcolor=#efefcb colspan=2> <table cellspacing=10 cellpadding=5 width=200 align=left bgcolor=#cccc99 border=0> <tbody> <tr> <td align=middle>

</td></tr></tbody></table><span>P</span>resident of Iraq (1979 - ). Born April 28, 1937, in the poor farming village of Tikrit, Iraq, where he was raised by his widowed mother. In 1955, he moved to the neighboring city of Baghdad, where he became involved in the Arab Nationalist Movement. As a fervent member of the Arab Baath Socialist Party, Hussein orchestrated the 1959 assassination attempt of Iraqi prime minister ‘Abd al-Karim Qasim. After the failed effort, Hussein escaped to Egypt. He settled in Cairo, where he attended the Cairo School of Law. When the Baathists seized control of Iraq in 1963, Hussein returned to his native country and was named assistant secretary general of the party. Within a few months the Baath party was overthrown. After years of struggle between Iraq’s existing government and the opposing socialists, the Baath party was re-established in a 1968 coup. Hussein, who played a prominent role in the revolt, became vice chairman of the ruling Revolutionary Command Council in 1969. In his new position, Hussein concentrated on improving Iraq’s domestic problems. He nationalized the country’s oil industry, which served as Iraq’s major source of wealth. Benefiting from the rise of oil prices in the early 1970s, Hussein implemented an economic improvement plan that included new factories, hospitals, and schools. In 1979, Hussein assumed the presidency of Iraq. That same year, he led Arab opposition to the Camp David Accords between Israel and Egypt. Under Hussein’s direction, Iraq invaded Iran in 1980, in an attempt to gain control of the Strait of Hormuz. The attack led to a war of attrition, during which Hussein quelled a Kurdish uprising by the widespread use of chemical weapons. The Iran-Iraq War lasted for eight years, until Iran agreed to a cease-fire in 1988. Burdened with a $75 billion war debt, Iraq pressured neighboring Kuwait to pay some of the balance with their vast oil revenues. In August 1990, Hussein invaded and annexed Kuwait, but was forced to withdraw when he was defeated by a coalition of U.S.-led forces in the Persian Gulf War. Also known as Operation Desert Storm, the six-week-long war (coupled with UN trade sanctions) further devastated Iraq’s suffering economy. In 1993, Hussein brought further military strikes against his country for continued breaching of peace terms. In 1998, his failure to comply with UN weapons inspectors led to a four-day air strike by the U.S. and Great Britain, but a satisfactory agreement was met. © 2000 A&amp;E Television Networks. All rights reserved</td></tr></tbody></table>

 

[Monster Zig]

TELL ME HOW TO DO IT RIGHT MISTER MANAGER WILLOW

 

[Willow]

With the above Saddam article, I just dragged the mouse over the text area and pic only. I didnt include the blank spaces outside of the box. Try and restrict the drag and copy to as small an area as possible.

You'll see it in your 'send' box if its going to scroll out. If it fits without the bottom scroll bar being activated then it will fit in the result discussion window.

 

[Monster Zig]

1912- 82) Iraqi military leader and politician, prime minister (1958-63).

Qasim's main problem was little support, both internationally and in Iraq. And some of his choices during his presidency, made what support he had dwindle. He first fought against the pan-Arabists, then the communists, which had helped him against the pan-Arabists. BIOGRAPHY
1914: Born in Baghdad in a lower-middle-class family of a Sunni father and a Shi'i mother.
1948- 49: Fights in the First Palestinian War.
1955: Central in the formation of the Free Officers group.
1958 July 14: The Free Officers overthrows King Faisal 2, had him killed and the Iraqi republic declared.
— Qasim has himself appointed prime minister and defence minister, and would soon be known as the "Sole Leader".
— September: Qasim leads a campaign against one of his closest challengers, Abdul Salam Arif and others pan-Arabists. — Invites the Kurdish nationalist leader Mustafa Barzani to return to Iraq. But when the Kurds demanded independence, Qasim starts a campaign against them.
1959 March: Withdraws Iraq from the Baghdad Pact.
— Leads a campaign against the communists, who had supported him in the fight against the pan-Arabists.
1960: Hosts a conference of Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Venezuela to form the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC).
1961: Takes away nearly all of the claim that the Iraqi Petroleum Company had on prospecting more than 400,000 km² og possible oil fields.
June: Kuwait becomes independent, Qasim claims that it is a part of Iraq. Qasim gets little support in this claim, and is opposed by the Arab League. Iraq gave in to the pressure, following secret subventions from Kuwait to Iraq.
1963 February 8 Executed together with his allies, following the coup staged by Ba'th Party members. <br clear=all>

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[Monster Zig]

hello all,
it's quite amusing to see that the baathists on the list are running around
panicing over AI's report. they seem to be out in force recently.
firstly, with regards to halabja - an issue covered thoroughly on this list
many times, but seems to keep repeating itself. - they claim it was not
saddam but iran. check out glen's comprehensive response to that claim back
in january: http://www.casi.org.uk/discuss/2002/msg00034.html
then, they try to say that Dujeil (where saddam hussein wiped out an entire
village and its inhabitants because a person from the village had attempted
to assasinate him) is normal practice, and its just a normal response! what
do u take us for? murderous baathists? not even israel, with its
mass-punishment policies does that.
then, they try to make a comparison with other arab countries saying look at
how they reacted to demonstrations (dispersing and arresting people). that's
almost comical, here's what the iraqi government's official policy is with
regards to non-government organised demonstrations:
Dealing with Demonstrations:
The detailed instructions state that the location of a demonstration should
be surrounded, the elevated points occupied, and demonstrators should be
shot at with the aim of killing 95 percent of them and saving the rest for
interrogation. Another instruction calls for the technical unit [euphemism
for chemical weapons] to be kept in reserve.
Original copy: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~irdp/docs/doc16.html
then, they try to discredit everything and anything about AI. read human
rights watch's reviews of iraq and weep.
all their attempts are aimed at portraying saddam and his regime as just any
other government.
if the AI report isn't valid enough, how about the iraqi government's own
documents? is that good enough as proof? here you go, just a small taster. i
can't wait for the excuses and weak arguements:
-Managing Prohibited Villages:
Seven-step procedure for managing villages in the North that are "prohibited
for security reasons." Directions include: capture, detention, arrest, and
execution of villagers found in the "prohibited areas." Signed: Ali Hasan
al-Majid, June 20, 1987.
Original copy (Arabic): http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~irdp/docs/doc01.html
-Plan of Action for the Marshes:
Plan of action for the Marshes adopted in 1987 and approved by "Mr. Leader
President (May God Preserve him)." Steps include: "technical security
operations against terrorist elements in the Marshes, such as poisoning,
explosions, and burning of houses against friends and relatives of
subversives in the Marsh areas as a lesson to others"; assassination of
"hostile elements"; controlling traffic; burning and demolishing houses; use
of planes; and "continuing the economic blockade more efficiently to limit
provision of their daily living needs," by: withdrawing all food supply
agencies, banning the sale of fish, "taking the most severe measures against
those who supply food to deserters and unlawful and hostile elements,'
prohibiting the traffic of goods, and using tribes. Dated January 30, 1989.
English translation and original copy:
http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~irdp/docs/doc06.html
-46 Persons Executed:
A report on: 46 persons executed (including 19 for "being present in the
villages prohibited for security reasons, in accordance with Clause 5 of the
June 20, 1987 decree of the [Bureau for the] Organization of the North"; 47
people sentenced to death by the Revolutionary Court; and 2532 people and
1869 families "sent to Popular Army Camp in Ta'mim [Kirkuk] Governorate from
among those seized during the heroic Anfal operations." Signed: Sulaymaniyya
Governorate Security Director, October 29, 1988.
Original copy: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~irdp/docs/doc07.html
-Order to Execute Wounded Civilians:
Order from the Halabja Security Directorate to the Sulaymaniyya Security
Directorate, to implement the recommendations of Ali Hasan al-Majid to
execute wounded civilians and raze neighbourhoods of Kani Ashqan with tanks,
bulldozers, and shovels. Dated May 14, 1987.
Original copy: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~irdp/docs/doc08.html
- Families Detained, Homes Demolished:
Report that, after the execution of "the criminals," their families were
detained and their homes demolished. Signed: Tahir Tawfiq, Secretary of
Committee for the Affairs of the North, September 17, 1987.
Original copy: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~irdp/docs/doc09.html
- Father Executed, Assets Confiscated:
Addressing the request of a citizen regarding the detention and execution of
her family members and the demolition of their home. The report explains
that all the assets of her "criminal" father have been confiscated because
of his connection to an internal organization of Iran's agents. Dated
September 16, 1989.
Original copy: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~irdp/docs/doc1001.html
- 12 Persons Executed:
Report listing the 12 people executed by Sulaymaniyya Directorate on October
18, 1985, among whom three died during interrogation. Order of execution
given by Director General with no issuance of death certificates.
Original copy: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~irdp/docs/doc11.html
Also check: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~irdp/docs/doc1501.html (44, some
during interrogation).
- Parents Liquidated:
Report on the inquiry by Bakhtiar Qoron about the fate of his parents. The
report explains that they are the parents of the "criminal" Hoshyar Qoron
Ahmed, "an element of the gang of Iranian agents," eight of whose members
had been captured and executed, and that the parents have been "liquidated"
in Baghdad. Dated November 20, 1989.
Original copy: http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~irdp/docs/doc1201.html

 

[Monster Zig]

<span>Baath Party</span><span>, formally the Baath Arab Socialist Party. political party and movement influential among Arab communities in the Middle East, especially in Syria and Iraq. The Baath Party was from the beginning a secular Arab nationalist party. Socialism (not Marxism) was quickly adopted as the party’s economic dogma: “Unity [Arab], Freedom [from colonialism], and Socialism” are still the watchwords. From its earliest development, the motivation behind Baathist political thought and its leading supporters was the need to produce a means of reasserting the Arab spirit in the face of foreign domination. Moral and cultural deterioration, it was felt, had so weakened the Arabs that Western supremacy spread throughout the Middle East. Arabs needed a regeneration of the common heritage of people in the region to drive off debilitating external influences.&lt;O> &lt;/O></span> <span>Articulated as the principle of Arab nationalism, the Baath movement was one of several political groups that drew legitimacy from an essentially reactive ideology. Nevertheless, Baathist ideology spread slowly by educating followers to its intellectual attractions. The three major proponents of early Baathist thought, Zaki al-Arsuzi, Salah al-Din al-Bitar, and Michel Aflaq, were middle-class educators whose political thought had been influenced by Western education. During the 1930s Arsuzi, Salah, and Aflaq expounded their vision of Arab nationalism to small audiences in Syria. By the early 1940s Salah and Aflaq had taken the initiative to extend the movement’s operations in Damascus by organizing demonstrations in support of Rashid Ali al-Kailani’s government in Iraq against the British presence there. By 1945 the word baath (Arabic for “resurrection” or “renaissance”) had been applied to what was then officially a party rather than a movement. The official founding of the party may be dated from its first party congress in Damascus on April 7, 1947, when a constitution was approved and an executive committee established. However, significant expansion beyond Syria’s borders took place only after the war of 1948, when lack of Arab unity was widely perceived as responsible for the loss of Palestine to the new state of Israel. The Iraqi branch of the Baath party was established in 1954 after the merger of the Baath with Akram al-Hurani’s Arab Socialist Party in 1952, to form the Arab Baath Socialist Party. In February 1963 the Baath Party came to power in Iraq and one month later, in March 8, it came to power in Syria after the March Revolution. Inter-party disagreements were one of the major factors that led to the Correction Movement led by Hafez al-Assad, the movement ended years of conflict within the party. A new constitution, approved in 1973, stated that the Baath Party is “leading party in the state and society”. In 1972, the Baath also became the leader of the 7 Syrian parties forming the National Progressive Front NPF. The national committee of the Baath is the effectively the decision making body in Syria. Number of members in Syria exceeds million. </span>

 

[Monster Zig]

<h6>The following photos have been reduced to speed download time. Click on a picture to see it in full size. </h6> "On the Road to Kuwait." The commanders and staff of the 3rd Battalion, 82nd FA, pausing for a group shot while "on the road to Kuwait." Operation "Berm Buster" A M109A3 howitzer from Battery C, 3rd Battalion, 82nd FA engaging Iraqi targets during Operation "Berm Buster", February 15, 1991. Operation "Red Storm" The First Cavalry Division Artillery firing against Iraqi targets in the Wadi Al - Batin during Operation "Red Storm", a night artillery and attack helicopter raid conducted in the Ruqi Pocket on February 16, 1991. Operation "Deep Strike" The 3rd Battalion, 82nd FA, reinforced by Battery A, 21st FA (MLRS), firing in support of the 2nd "Blackjack" Brigade's attack up the Wadi Al Batin on "G-Day," the first day of the ground campaign. This attack was a "feint;" the intent was to make the Iraqis think that the coalition main attack was coming up the Wadi Al Batin. This operation was an unqualified success, in that it tied down four Iraqi divisions and allowed the VII Corps to conduct a successful envelopment to the west. Reenlistment Lieutenant Colonel Kenneth R. Knight reenlisting Sergeant First Class Phillip Wright on February 28, 1991, near Basra, Iraq. This reenlistment occurred almost immediately after the cease fire. Destroyed Iraqi ZSU 23-4 U.S. Army soldiers inspecting a destroyed Iraqi ZSU 23-4 self-propelled anti-aircraft piece near Basra, Iraq, March 2, 1991. Destroyed Iraqi APC A destroyed Iraqi armored personnel carrier. Iraqi 2S1 Howitzer Jubilant U.S. soldiers showing off an Iraqi 2S1 self-propelled howitzer, captured from the Republican Guard "Tawakalna" Division near Basra, Iraq. This particular howitzer, captured in near mint condition, can be seen at the First Cavalry Division Museum at Fort Hood, TX. <hr size=1> <h5 align=center>Copyright © 1994-2000, Andy Hoskinson. All rights reserved. Unauthorized duplication or redistribution strictly prohibited. The 13th Signal Battalion photos are Copyright © 1994-2000, Norman Jarvis.</h5> Disclaimer: Under no circumstances will Andy Hoskinson be liable for any of the content placed by

 

[IRAQ EYE]

<blockquote>The following photos were submitted by Charles Miles. Just click on any of the thumbnails below to see a larger version of the photo. Larger photos are appx 60-110k in size. <hr> <hr> </blockquote>

 

This message has been deleted by the manager or assistant manager.

 

[BUSH EYE]

"The revolution... is a dictatorship of the exploited against the exploiters."
- Fidel Castro After the Spanish-American War, Cuba became an American puppet. It was a land of vice and moral turpitude where Americans could come to enjoy the depravity they wouldn't enjoy at home. Attorney Fidel Castro realized that the only people who profited from this were the American owners and the corrupt locals. After a couple of ill-fated tries, he finally led a successful coup that instilled a communist regime. His famous quote expresses his views of how his first goal was simply payback for the harsh years of repression. To this day, Cuba remains one of the few communist countries left in the world.

 

[ONEYED WARRIOR]

"Revolution is not a dinner party, not an essay, nor a painting, nor a piece of embroidery; it cannot be advanced softly, gradually, carefully, considerately, respectfully, politely, plainly, and modestly."
- Mao Zedong (Mao Tse-tung) In the first half of the 20th century, China was like the Wild West. There was lawlessness, poverty and oppression. Mao Zedong, a champion of Marxism, organized communist forces over the course of 20 years and finally took power in 1949. His experience in the matter taught him that a revolution wasn't performed over a cup of tea and crumpets; blood must be shed. Under his tutelage and concept of revolution, China instigated catastrophic programs like the Great Leap Forward, which led to the death of more than 20 million people, and the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution, proving that Mao truly believed his own words.

 

[ONEYED WARRIOR]

DEAR SADMAN GET THIS UP YOU

 

[ONEYED WARRIOR]

 

[Hass]

It seems to me that some people are forgetting the point here- What should be done about Iraq?

It seems that everyone is so caught up in their anti-American soap-boxing, that they are opposing a War with Iraq simply on the basis that it is a US idea, rather than on the basis of whether action needs to be taken against Iraq.

The 1991 Gulf War saw Saddam Hussein save his regime by negotiating a deal with the United Nations that he would openly disarm in respects to nuclear weapons. It is now 12 years since that agreement was reached and there have been no signs at all that Saddam Hussein has been complying.

The Clinton Administration tried to be diplomatic in their dealings with Iraq, but even Clinton was forced to fire Cruise Missiles at Military bases due to Saddam Hussein not complying with the UN. The Weapons inspections carried out by Richard Butler severely condemning of the Iraqi disarming process. To this day Butler states we should not even have to take his word that Iraq has massive build-up of nuclear weapons because it is so clear.

With concerns that Iraq were still not complying, calls were renewed for weapons inspectors to enter Iraq. They were originally denied access, but brinkmanship finally saw Saddam Hussein relent.

The Hans Blix doctrine handed down a few days ago is incredibly damning. It was the United Nations Weapons Inspectors duty to receive proof from Iraq that they were disarming. However Iraq could not explain where known weapons had gone and instead practiced a web of deceit in an attempt to pull the wool over the United Nations eyes.

If the United Nations was to have any meaning then they must enforce the agreements they made with Iraq in 1991. There are many dictators throughout the world, however there are none who have the same capability when it comes to the production of Nuclear weapons when they are in clear violation of a United Nations code and have a proven track record of using these weapons to invade.

While Iraq is in violation of agreements made with the United Nations, the United States feel that Iraq is in direct violation of agreement with them. The US were the unquestioned leaders of the UN Force which attacked Iraq in the Gulf War. By breaking the UN Code, they have broken a US code.

I am glad the United States is applying pressure to the UN for them to pass a second resolution. The United States intentions of going to War without UN approval are intentions that are morally correct. However the Unites States shouldn't have to tackle this issue and end up being in breach of International Law. I support Australia involving itself in action against Iraq. It is just that if the United Nations don't attend to this matter properly then other countries that carry out the UN's dirty work are going to be in violation of International Law and I don't paticularly want to see Australia tied up in that complication.

Germany are not blocking the a UN sanctioned strike because they feel morally bound to do so. Germany has even admitted to the United States itself that if it were to support this War it would put the government at odds with the people due to the fact it had been elected on an agenda of peace. For Germany to back down from that would be political suicide.

Sure, America are a pain in the arse. I've never been a big fan of the Yanks and have always been amazed at how they claim to have "won" two World Wars when they entered both of them half way through. But it seems that people are going to sceptics no matter what and will take and twist any information that suits their sceptical agenda.

Has it ever occurred to some of you Bush bashers that perhaps, maybe, just maybe, for once America could be right?

No that's right, America are the scum of the earth and can't be trusted- and all the meanwhile Saddam Hussein continues to build up his resources.

Sometimes I really do loathe pacifists.

Cheers.

 

[Willow]

"It seems to me that some people are forgetting the point here- What should be done about Iraq?... everyone is so caught up in their anti-American ... rather than on the basis of whether action needs to be taken against Iraq"

With respect Hass, I don't think there is anti-American sentiment as much as there is anti-war. It is a common ploy to try and turn people against protestors by simply writing them off as being 'anti-American'.

If you have solution as to what to do with Iraq, then please enlighten us. Your post indicates a list of reasons to go to war but offers little in the way of peace.

"The Hans Blix doctrine handed down a few days ago is incredibly damning. "
I saw the headline too... indicated that the Iraqis were deceiving the west. What was the contents of the report? It reeks of a one-sided story.

"There are many dictators throughout the world, however there are none who have the same capability when it comes to the production of Nuclear weapons... and have a proven track record of using these weapons to invade."


What? Pleaselet us know where it is written that Iraq have capabilties to produce nuclear weapons...???
...and then lets compared Iraq to Israel,the Koreas, Pakistan, India, China, Russia, Ukraine, Japan, the UK, France and the USA... all of whom have a fairly dusty track record themselves.
Moreover, where is this proven track record of using these weapons to invade ?
How does this compare to the USA or Israel...?


Whats interesting is that amongst these nations, only a few believe Iraq to be a threat. Why are US, UK and Australian governments so right and yet every other including German, French, Russian, Chinese and Japanese governments so wrong? Could it have something to do with common interests... or is it common-wealth?

"...the United States feel that Iraq is in direct violation of agreement with them."
Sadly, this is the moral justification for everything that the US is doing at the moment.

"The United States intentions of going to War without UN approval are intentions that are morally correct. "
According to who? God?

"Has it ever occurred to some of you Bush bashers that perhaps, maybe, just maybe, for once America could be right?"
Sure, in fact I am certain he is as far right as they come.
You know, he wants this war... have you ever considered the reasons why? Do you really think its all to do with ethics and morality? Have the reasonsof resources (oil) and border control ever crossed your mind? Or how about imperialism? Doesnt it strike you as being a little odd that American, UKand Australian troopsare mobilising on the borders of another much smaller country... on the other side of the bloody world?
I know it raises a number of questions in my mind and the front page of the Daily Tabloid does little to put my mind at ease.

"...meanwhile Saddam Hussein continues to build up his resources."
Get rid of him then. and while your at it, get rid of the sanctions that deprive the Iraqi people of supplies... and while your at it, try and talk theIraqis out of their 'oil for food' arrangement that the US sanctions have forced them to accept.

Tell me what you think will happen after the impending war?
I'm willing to predict here and now that no war will stop any dictatorship in Iraq.

IMO, The result is pretty clear... western and Arab soldiers will die... scores of Arab civilians will die as well. Many more will be homeless and without income - this is war, but it is war that we will be insulated from in the west.

Saddam, or someone like him will remain in power and the US forces will have greater control over the air space and border regions. The oil wells will be flowing to western interests at the right price.
Meanwhile, a new generation of outraged Arabs will emerge.

"Sometimes I really do loathe pacifists."
Loathing and hatred are prereqisites for war-mongers.

 

[El Duque]

Don't hold back Nelson

Mandela: U.S. wants holocaust

 

[Willow]

Nicely picked up El... and Nelson Mandela is supposed to have mellowed: <hr>

Former South African president Nelson Mandela has slammed the U.S. stance on Iraq, saying that "one power with a president who has no foresight, who cannot think properly, is now wanting to plunge the world into a holocaust."

Mandela said "if there is a country that has committed unspeakable atrocities in the world, it is the United States of America."

Mandela said U.S. President George W. Bush covets the oil in Iraq

Mandela said Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair are "undermining" past work of the United Nations.

Mandela said he would support without reservation any action agreed upon by the United Nations against Iraq... <hr>

 

[imported_JoeD]

however there are none who have the same capability when it comes to the production of Nuclear weapons . . . .and have a proven track record of using these weapons to invade

Umm . . . I think that the US is the only country to have ever actually used a nuclear weapon before. Knowledge of Iraq's capability of making a nuclear warhead are sketchy at best. The other factor you need to consider is their ability to launch one and send it further than about 600 miles. Knowledge that they can do even that is also sketchy at best. Like Willow said there are plenty of other nations with niclear weapon making capabilities out there. America alone has something like 16 000 nuclear warheads. What do they need those for? Why don't they show some leadership and set an example to the rest of the world and disarm their own arsenal?

 

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