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Russel Packer. Did we dodge a bullet?

True_Believer

Juniors
Messages
1,730
Correct.

And we did provide support and education in the 6 months he was stood down. It's not like we kicked him to kerb once he got charged. But once the charge was proven, it was only then his contract was terminated (6 months later)

Same thing applies to JDB, He is stood down pending a court case and I'm pretty sure his contract will be torn up too if he's found guilty or admits to the charge.

As a club, we did everything right with AFB.

The whole premise of the discussion revolves around attributing blame to the club for not retaining a player of quality - or at the very least showcasing club incompetence. This is also exacerbated by our plight over the last 8 years and is shown in multiple threads throughout the forum. The basis of the discussion is about maintaining a successful club and acting to secure the right talent no matter the situation or cost. In this case, for some, the moral component is mostly irrelevant as what is the right action for the club to take and what is in line with other clubs actions goes against this position. That’s it in a nutshell.
 

giboz71

First Grade
Messages
9,013
The whole premise of the discussion revolves around attributing blame to the club for not retaining a player of quality - or at the very least showcasing club incompetence. This is also exacerbated by our plight over the last 8 years and is shown in multiple threads throughout the forum. The basis of the discussion is about maintaining a successful club and acting to secure the right talent no matter the situation or cost. In this case, for some, the moral component is mostly irrelevant as what is the right action for the club to take and what is in line with other clubs actions goes against this position. That’s it in a nutshell.

Correct. It's a complex situation because all clubs need to balance on field success with morals and ethics. It's a tough balance sometimes. It's why there was such a debate on these forums about JDB, although that wasn't straight forward as he has denied the charge.

It's never a great situation when a talented player messes up. There is a long list as I have mentioned - Carney, Dugan, Fergo, Bird, Packer, Lui, Barba, Lodge, AFB. It's not great on the clubs that sacked them as they always end up at another club playing against them.

But I stand by the notion that violence against women and children should have zero tolerance. You hurt a female or child, and you're gone. Which is what happened with AFB at the Dragons.
 

True_Believer

Juniors
Messages
1,730
But I stand by the notion that violence against women and children should have zero tolerance. You hurt a female or child, and you're gone. Which is what happened with AFB at the Dragons.

I'm also of that view and as stated previously I believe the club took the right action in this case. As others have pointed out, it appears to be a joint stance initiated and driven by both the club and the NRL and their integrity unit. The fact that so many other players in similar scenarios have been dealt with in similar ways suggests the nrl and clubs have agreed that this is appropriate action.
 

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
16,945
OT - the rest of us are trying to have a discussion on a serious matter that hits home to a lot of people.

If you can’t do anything else but sit there calling names, swearing at people and overall not really making much sense, perhaps it’s best for everyone that you disengage here as it’s clearly winding you up.
Your usual style of answer when you can’t deal with a legitimate question as to your own beliefs.
I have conducted myself in this conversation as seriously as anyone else and you even try to misconstrue that.
The notion that the subject winds me up is fanciful on your part but what pisses me off is your arrogant, pious, self righteous attitude.
“Best for everyone” or best for you that I disengage, me thinks that others can speak for themselves and didn’t elect you as their spokesperson as much as you would like that to be the case.
Any chance you might finally answer the legitimate questions I asked of you.
 

muzby

Village Idiot
Staff member
Messages
45,712
I have conducted myself in this conversation as seriously as anyone else and you even try to misconstrue that.

Okay.. let’s have a look..
Spoken like the jerk you really are
Go to church do you?
You truly are a goose of the 1st order.
Again the judgemental muzby makes an arsehole of himself
For the record you prat
Even from you I expect better than that bullshit.

Seriously man..
 

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
16,945
Okay.. let’s have a look..







Seriously man..
Ok maybe you can answer these
  1. Do you agree with the clubs stand on JDB as they haven’t stood him down, haven’t removed him from the playing group, would be happy to select him if allowed to?
  2. Have the NRL done the right thing in respect of JDB or should they have gone further?
 

muzby

Village Idiot
Staff member
Messages
45,712
Ok maybe you can answer these
  1. Do you agree with the clubs stand on JDB as they haven’t stood him down, haven’t removed him from the playing group, would be happy to select him if allowed to?
  2. Have the NRL done the right thing in respect of JDB or should they have gone further?
1. Firstly I don’t believe the club would have ever actually played him whilst the case was ongoing as the backlash would have been too much for s conservative board. This is evidenced by the Mudgee game, where all the “expectation” was that the no fault rule would be dismissed and the talk was he’d be rushed back into the side.

But he wasn’t even named in the 21, so could never have occurred anyway.

However, to answer your question I would not agree with their position not to stand him down and would have voiced it directly to them.

2. He is stood down on full pay in a case where he is innocent until proven guilty.

This is s fair outcome for all parties and is common in high profile employment cases.

Any “going further” or even going softer would create an imbalance..
 

possm

Coach
Messages
15,591
For me it seems one of the senior leaders of our Club could be done for DUI and still keep his contract. Mary is supposed to provide an example to his players.

I'd say leave justice matters to the courts and the NRL integrity unit. Follow the decisions and advice of these two entities.
 

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
16,945
1. Firstly I don’t believe the club would have ever actually played him whilst the case was ongoing as the backlash would have been too much for s conservative board. This is evidenced by the Mudgee game, where all the “expectation” was that the no fault rule would be dismissed and the talk was he’d be rushed back into the side.

But he wasn’t even named in the 21, so could never have occurred anyway.

However, to answer your question I would not agree with their position not to stand him down and would have voiced it directly to them.

2. He is stood down on full pay in a case where he is innocent until proven guilty.

This is s fair outcome for all parties and is common in high profile employment cases.

Any “going further” or even going softer would create an imbalance..
Your answer to Q1 is a little disturbing but I suppose in an effort to defend the club you needed to go that way.
Are you not aware that the club and coach said that if the NRL decision had been overturned that JDB would have been selected to play?
Pretty emphatic position by both club and coaching staff.
Is that not enough for you to write to the club and protest as to how they are thinking oh this subject matter?
Or does the fact that the court ruling didn’t allow it to happen mean that you no longer need to voice your opinion to the club despite it being willing to take an option that you totally disagree with?
In this instance us not the intent of the club one as the same as having done it?
Surely your moral compass can see the relevancy here?
 

muzby

Village Idiot
Staff member
Messages
45,712
Your answer to Q1 is a little disturbing but I suppose in an effort to defend the club you needed to go that way.
Are you not aware that the club and coach said that if the NRL decision had been overturned that JDB would have been selected to play?
Pretty emphatic position by both club and coaching staff.
Is that not enough for you to write to the club and protest as to how they are thinking oh this subject matter?
Or does the fact that the court ruling didn’t allow it to happen mean that you no longer need to voice your opinion to the club despite it being willing to take an option that you totally disagree with?
In this instance us not the intent of the club one as the same as having done it?
Surely your moral compass can see the relevancy here?
I give up mate..

Clearly you aren’t actually looking to discuss, you’re just trying to find any opportunity to have a go..

Best of luck to you, you continue to play the man, I’ll focus on the ball..

I look forward to your little chirps popping up as we go along..
 

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
16,945
I give up mate..

Clearly you aren’t actually looking to discuss, you’re just trying to find any opportunity to have a go..

Best of luck to you, you continue to play the man, I’ll focus on the ball..

I look forward to your little chirps popping up as we go along..
Good old toe in the water muzby
Wants to have a shit fight but when a little splatters on him he turns tail & runs
Brings out the trial game at Mudgee as some form I’d defence which is just laughable and clearly contradicted by later actions of the club but you couldn’t even admit that.
No doubt you are an Illawarra stooge of the 1st order and when backed into a corner uses a tired old cliche while retreating.
 

muzby

Village Idiot
Staff member
Messages
45,712
Good old toe in the water muzby
Wants to have a shit fight but when a little splatters on him he turns tail & runs
Brings out the trial game at Mudgee as some form I’d defence which is just laughable and clearly contradicted by later actions of the club but you couldn’t even admit that.
No doubt you are an Illawarra stooge of the 1st order and when backed into a corner uses a tired old cliche while retreating.
Nope..

Gave you a chance to actually discuss, but all you’re keen on doing is carrying on with name calling and insults.

I’m really not sure how an Illawarra vs St George peice can even be considered relevant when we’re talking about domestic violence..


It’s not retreating, it’s called stepping away before I join you down in the swamp.
 

muzby

Village Idiot
Staff member
Messages
45,712
Any mate, as long as I can keep watching this show lol
Easy done..

Here you go:
images



And here you go:

I still maintain that there are plenty of fans who would overlook serious, criminal indiscretions if it meant that it gave their team an advantage on the field.

And that it a terrible mentality that needs to change.
 

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
16,945
For crimes of that type, yes I think sacking is an appropriate consequence. However I wouldn’t be opposed in some circumstances to a club sacking the player from the squad but staying involved to assist in rehab. Working in another non privileged role with strict conditions and ongoing support, I could get behind something like that.
And yes, as reprehensible as someone like AFB’s actions were, if he’s served his punishment and genuinely demonstrated that he’s committed to doing the right thing then I’m ok with a second chance at our club. But I still think tearing up his contract was the right decision. You shouldn’t get to keep a first grade contract after doing something like that.
Damo,
You are a good thinker and remove emotion from most things so perhaps you can offer an opinion on this.
Just before we get to that I should say categorically I abhor DV and do not in any way shape or form condone or excuse it as my stand with almost all violent acts regardless of who they are perpetrated on.
I do also declare that I am a person who believes in rehabilitating people so therefore in believing that if given the chance people should have active involvement.
Now with that out of the way I go back to the AFB situation.
  • AFB perpetrates an act of DV and admits to it.
  • The club stands him down immediately (including form the player group I think)
  • With an admission of guilt already made the die is cast that he will be punished by the judicial system.
  • We have some involvement with him in the 6 months leading up to the court case with the result in fact a no brainer only severity in question.
  • The court hands out what can be considered a very light slap on the wrist penalty of $1,000 fine and a 12 mont suspended sentence and some counselling.
  • The club the trips up his contract and turf him.
My question / dilemma is if the club new he was guilty why did the club wait for the court ruling to terminate the contract surely they already knew the result.
Is it possible that the club may have waited to that moment just in case the case was withdrawn or AFB changed his plea?
Some people are suggesting the Packer case was different because he had served his custodial sentence well the fact is AFB didn't have a sentence to serve as such and the court in its “wisdom@ let him go about his business.
Now whilst I believe in rehabilitation where possible I could actually understand if the club had of cut AFB loose the moment he admitted to the DV crime but what was the point in waiting 6 months to tear up the contract?
As I have suggested in previous posts IMO seeing they held onto him for that period of time then why consign him to there scrap heap at the very time he and his family probably needed us most?
I can see no good logic for keeping someone who you know is guilty of a crime, doing some work with him but then cast him adrift.
If the conviction of the club was not to tolerate such action then surely it should have torn up the contract day 1?
It could have done that and still offered counselling.
If it was me in charge I would have looked for the pathway to rehabilitate him, keep within the group he knew best and have very strong penalty clauses against him if he f**ked up again.
 

muzby

Village Idiot
Staff member
Messages
45,712
My question / dilemma is if the club new he was guilty why did the club wait for the court ruling to terminate the contract surely they already knew the result.
9 simple words.

Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

Surely someone with your claimed experience in the justice system would understand such a basic cornerstone of our society?
 

Old Timer

Coach
Messages
16,945
9 simple words.

Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

Surely someone with your claimed experience in the justice system would understand such a basic cornerstone of our society?
Did I ask you for your opinion?
For a bloke that was going to not join me in the swamp you didn’t take long to jump in.
Your assertion “innocent until proven guilty” (= to your lunacy re JDB not being picked in the CS trial) has SFA to do with it as he wisely admitted to his crime and was therefore afforded leniency if the court so decided.
For your information a plea of guilty doesn’t require proof.
The club knew well in advance of his guilt which was never in question.
Want to try again?
 

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