Russel Packer. Did we dodge a bullet?

[muzby]

Nonsense.

Really?

What I don't understand is that we were prepared to go out on a limb for Packer and we also did the same for Dugan and yet we didn't do the same for Fonua Blake.
If we are so big on rehabilitating bad boys at least pick the right ones.

What makes AFB “the right one” out of those three?

Is it this:

AFB has gone on to develop into a great prop forward.
I think he has done amazingly well at Manly and good luck to him.
My point is if we had used the same pastoral philosophy with this guy as we did with Dugan and Packer, we would be laughing today.

Why would we be laughing?

Or perhaps it’s this:

As for your Dane Nielsen comment.
Where is the comparison?
A washed up 30 odd year old veteran versus an up and coming prospect from our junior ranks?

 

[Old Timer]

I’d say the fact he admitted that genuinely facing jail time was enough to turn his life around says that the justice system did it’s job.. no?

But I’m still waiting for you to just answer the question..

You say 19 is an age that deserves a second chance from the club and as you put it “education and guidance” (which I may add is exactly what the court imposed counselling was, so not sure why you quash it there, but then say we should be doing exactly the same thing.. rather odd..)

But the question is.. In your opinion what age should someone be old enough to know better & not do it in the first place?

Cause my answer to that question is that 19 is easily old enough..

Still waiting are you?
Well obviously you only see what you want to see as the answer to that is already in my previous post so go back and read it properly dumb arse.
For the record I am still waiting for your unreserved apology for the totally false accusation you made that my stance is based in AFB’s football ability or aren’t you old enough to know that was a wrong thing to do and admit your mistake?
Just on ciurt assigned counselling as I have seen how that works I can assure you that it takes a damn site more than that to help people rehabilitate. You totally underestimate the value of a close support group from the people directly around you and very often that comes from your employer, work mates & family.

 

[Dennis Papaioannou]

Really?

What makes AFB “the right one” out of those three?

Is it this:

Why would we be laughing?

Or perhaps it’s this:

I put forward my thoughts and ideas on more than one occasion.
I have tried to clarify any ambiguity for you and respond to your challenges.
You choose to keep ramming your style of debate down our throats.
It's OK...you have the last word if it makes you feel better.

 

[blacksafake]

So have we come to any conclusion as to whether we Dodged a bullet???

 

[muzby]

Still waiting are you?
Well obviously you only see what you want to see as the answer to that is already in my previous post so go back and read it properly dumb arse.
For the record I am still waiting for your unreserved apology for the totally false accusation you made that my stance is based in AFB’s football ability or aren’t you old enough to know that was a wrong thing to do and admit your mistake?
Just on ciurt assigned counselling as I have seen how that works I can assure you that it takes a damn site more than that to help people rehabilitate. You totally underestimate the value of a close support group from the people directly around you and very often that comes from your employer, work mates & family.

No need to be throwing insults around just because you’re frustrated..

As for your “apology”, I stand by my claim:

You’re simply another one of many in football/the media/society who are willing to put those with footballing ability above others..

Your strong call for the club to rehabilitate whilst still earning a ludicrous salary is something that is available only to sports people.

Why should a someone convicted of domestic violence be afforded further privellege by a football club, privellige that the everyday Joe in a similar position wouldn’t be provided?

Feel free to sue me if it is causing you such distress...

But you’ll probably just revert to calling me more names..

 

[Carlton]

I think there is a big difference between a player who has served his time and is looking to restart his career and a player who has committed a crime and as yet has not served his time.

Part of the problem with player behaviour is that clubs actually do try to "rehabilitate", guide players and in many cases hide their indiscetions. This isn't done for altruistic reasons however, its primarily because the club wants to keep a "talent".

Clubs want discipline on the football field, at training and for club functions but they are often too willing to turn a blind eye to poor behaviour if it is not in one of these areas and can be kept quiet. Clubs should be willing to immediately tear up contracts for any poor behaviour including substance abuse, violence and degrading and/or predatory sexual behaviour. Its only when players realise there is no under the carpet deals to keep things secret that their behaviour will change. And I dont think all players misbehave but without question there is an element that are out of control.

The other area that needs to be consistent is the media, Andrew Johns has said himself that the media were well aware of his issues with drugs and cut him slack. They still joke about it, what message does that send to young players?

 

[TruSaint]

I think there is a big difference between a player who has served his time and is looking to restart his career and a player who has committed a crime and as yet has not served his time.

Part of the problem with player behaviour is that clubs actually do try to "rehabilitate", guide players and in many cases hide their indiscetions. This isn't done for altruistic reasons however, its primarily because the club wants to keep a "talent".

Clubs want discipline on the football field, at training and for club functions but they are often too willing to turn a blind eye to poor behaviour if it is not in one of these areas and can be kept quiet. Clubs should be willing to immediately tear up contracts for any poor behaviour including substance abuse, violence and degrading and/or predatory sexual behaviour. Its only when players realise there is no under the carpet deals to keep things secret that their behaviour will change. And I dont think all players misbehave but without question there is an element that are out of control.

The other area that needs to be consistent is the media, Andrew Johns has said himself that the media were well aware of his issues with drugs and cut him slack. They still joke about it, what message does that send to young players?

Nicely put, and may i say your last paragraph has not been lost on many members here. To see Joeys indiscretions trivialized and referred to in comic sketches by some very high profile and well viewed commentators is appalling.

 

[Old Timer]

No need to be throwing insults around just because you’re frustrated..

As for your “apology”, I stand by my claim:


Your strong call for the club to rehabilitate whilst still earning a ludicrous salary is something that is available only to sports people.

Why should a someone convicted of domestic violence be afforded further privellege by a football club, privellige that the everyday Joe in a similar position wouldn’t be provided?

Feel free to sue me if it is causing you such distress...

But you’ll probably just revert to calling me more names..

Spoken like the jerk you really are
You believe you can accuse people of whatever you like and be righteous in doing so
Your the one who is frustrated because you led with your chin and had one out right on it
Your argument now gets even more ludicrous as you enter the question of salary into the fray.
You have absolutely no idea and have applied the Sorbent treatment by wiping him like a dirty arse.
Imagine if everyone took your approach and shunned him like a leper as you do and offer nothing in guidance and support what a frightening place muzby land would be with a hole bunch of leper’s running around.
Go to church do you?

 

[muzby]

Spoken like the jerk you really are
You believe you can accuse people of whatever you like and be righteous in doing so
Your the one who is frustrated because you led with your chin and had one out right on it
Your argument now gets even more ludicrous as you enter the question of salary into the fray.
You have absolutely no idea and have applied the Sorbent treatment by wiping him like a dirty arse.
Imagine if everyone took your approach and shunned him like a leper as you do and offer nothing in guidance and support what a frightening place muzby land would be with a hole bunch of leper’s running around.
Go to church do you?

I think you need to go have a lie down..

 

[Old Timer]

I think you need to go have a lie down..

You think far too much and get yourself tangled up in your own web.
You are a very sad case indeed and now building straw men to convince yourself that you are correct in accusing people of things that are completely false.
You are such a pompous git that you even revert to correcting people’s use of the English language in here but fail to correct your own errors.
Hypocrite of the 1st order.

 

[muzby]

You think far too much and get yourself tangled up in your own web.
You are a very sad case indeed and now building straw men to convince yourself that you are correct in accusing people of things that are completely false.
You are such a pompous git that you even revert to correcting people’s use of the English language in here but fail to correct your own errors.
Hypocrite of the 1st order.

Tell me more..

 

[Michaeldragonslife25]

Hearing he might be a dragon before June 30

 

[giboz71]

I think there is a big difference between a player who has served his time and is looking to restart his career and a player who has committed a crime and as yet has not served his time.

Yep, this is the point and there is a clear distinction between the two. This is lost on some apparently?

He was charged with assaulting a female and this was proven was it not? The same as Greg Bird and Robert Lui who were both sacked from their respective clubs. Dane Nielsen as well. The same will happen to JDB if he's found guilty. Walker got off because his GF withdrew the charge otherwise he would have been punted as well.

I know not everyone charged with assault gets sacked (eg Jack Wighton) but violence against women needs to have zero tolerance. If another club picks them up after the fact, that's on them.

We were right in sacking him, the same as Lui, Bird and Nielsen got sacked. Surely most on here would find it hard to hold on to their jobs if found guilty of assaulting a female? I work for a major bank and I'd lose my job for sure.

 

[AyiosYiorgos]

We were right in sacking him, the same as Lui, Bird and Nielsen got sacked. Surely most on here would find it hard to hold on to their jobs if found guilty of assaulting a female? I work for a major bank and I'd lose my job for sure.

I'm Curious do you think, you would lose your job if you assualted a male out in town on any given night?
or if a same sex couple assualted their partner in a domestic dispute, would they sack or rehabilitate..

 

[Carlton]

I'm Curious do you think, you would lose your job if you assualted a male out in town on any given night?
or if a same sex couple assualted their partner in a domestic dispute, would they sack or rehabilitate..

If anyone in one of the companies I was managing was convicted of a violent crime against man, woman or child their employment would be terminated. Further, anyone who has served their time for a violent crime would have to prove to me that they are reformed before I would employ them.

I believe that people who have genuinely reformed should be given a chance at a fresh start. However, I dont believe that I should have to take an unreasonable risk employing them even if they have served their time. Their past actions have a loud voice and serving time is not a mute button, the only way to make the voice quieter is to show through current actions that they have changed. Taking responsibility for what you have done is key.

 

[giboz71]

I'm Curious do you think, you would lose your job if you assualted a male out in town on any given night?
or if a same sex couple assualted their partner in a domestic dispute, would they sack or rehabilitate..

As i said, a male assaulting a female needs to stand on its own. Particularly in AFB's case as he was charged with kicking his partner. That's a despicable act mate.

2 blokes out on the drink and one guy hits another you might be able to forgive.

But AFB's case was a clear case of domestic violence against a female, likely unable to defend herself against a 100kg man. Too many cases of females getting hurt or killed at the hands of a male. Another high profile case in Victoria just last week alone. It needs to stop, hence there needs to be zero tolerance. In all industries as well, not just Rugby League.

I don't even know why this is even a discussion?

 

[AyiosYiorgos]

As i said, a male assaulting a female needs to stand on its own. Particularly in AFB's case as he was charged with kicking his partner. That's a despicable act mate.

2 blokes out on the drink and one guy hits another you might be able to forgive.

But AFB's case was a clear case of domestic violence against a female, likely unable to defend herself against a 100kg man. Too many cases of females getting hurt or killed at the hands of a male. Another high profile case in Victoria just last week alone. It needs to stop.

I don't even know why this is even a discussion?

No i agree, was just curious you said your work, would terminate a male belting the female partner, was just curious if the same applies to same sex couples or M/M in a social setting...

 

[giboz71]

No i agree, was just curious you said your work, would terminate a male belting the female partner, was just curious if the same applies to same sex couples or M/M in a social setting...

Each case needs to be treated individually.

Jack Wighton got convicted with assault as well but he drunkenly tried to punch other males who could handle themselves. Still a piss poor act and if the Raiders sacked him I wouldn't have argued. But they chose not to for whatever reason.

But guys like AFB, Lui, Bird etc trying to hurt their partners who can't defend themselves, thats instant dismissal in my book if the charge is proven.

And LOL trying to compare AFB with Dugan. Poor old Duges got sacked for missing training and downing some cruisers on a rooftop.

Hardly the same thing as what AFB did.

 

[True_Believer]

Each case needs to be treated individually.

Jack Wighton got convicted with assault as well but he drunkenly tried to punch other males who could handle themselves. Still a piss poor act and if the Raiders sacked him I wouldn't have argued. But they chose not to for whatever reason.

But guys like AFB, Lui, Bird etc trying to hurt their partners who can't defend themselves, thats instant dismissal in my book if the charge is proven.

And LOL trying to compare AFB with Dugan. Poor old Duges got sacked for missing training and downing some cruisers on a rooftop.

Hardly the same thing as what AFB did.

Won't go into detail, but this is currently happening at my work (not DV related). It's about culture and the type of people the company want representing them and working for them.

But guys like AFB, Lui, Bird etc trying to hurt their partners who can't defend themselves, thats instant dismissal in my book if the charge is proven.

You could add others - Barber, Lodge etc. I'm sure there are more. It looks to be a common approach by clubs that they sack players based on proven domestic violence offenses.

 

[The Damo]

Yep, this is the point and there is a clear distinction between the two. This is lost on some apparently?

He was charged with assaulting a female and this was proven was it not? The same as Greg Bird and Robert Lui who were both sacked from their respective clubs. Dane Nielsen as well. The same will happen to JDB if he's found guilty. Walker got off because his GF withdrew the charge otherwise he would have been punted as well.

I know not everyone charged with assault gets sacked (eg Jack Wighton) but violence against women needs to have zero tolerance. If another club picks them up after the fact, that's on them.

We were right in sacking him, the same as Lui, Bird and Nielsen got sacked. Surely most on here would find it hard to hold on to their jobs if found guilty of assaulting a female? I work for a major bank and I'd lose my job for sure.

100%

I’m absolutely on board with a standard that says - guilty of criminal violence against women or children, and most likely incidences against men, and you’re sacked from whatever club.
Do your time, serve your punishment, get yourself together and demonstrate you’re committed to doing better, then sure come back, with strict conditions.