Sack Griffin

[Ronnie Dobbs]

The team has already hit its ceiling. Heading down in a big way. What posdible justification is there for maintaining the status quo?

it needs to be blown up and start again.

Its just pathetic when you compare it to what we’re up against in the market. Biggest comfort zone in pro sports, the Dragons.

 

[Illusion]

The team has already hit its ceiling. Heading down in a big way. What posdible justification is there for maintaining the status quo?

it needs to be blown up and start again.

Its just pathetic when you compare it to what we’re up against in the market. Biggest comfort zone in pro sports, the Dragons.

Well said mate ......

 

[Dragonslayer]

Some very well written and thought out posts on here today, and many make good sense when you analise our current situation. Then there are some reactionary posts, which I totally understand given the performance of the team atm.

@True_Believer you are spot on. Most of our reserve grade, JF and even down to junior reps, haven't played a full season for 2yrs. Whereas, QLD teams, ran a 19 round + finals competition and you can see the benefits of that very clearly with Storm (2nd), Cowboys (3rd) and Broncos (4th), only the Titans are having a burp season, but their woes are really about players egos than performance. Add also that the last half of last season was played where? yep in QLD.

So, in reality, 3 of the current top 8 clubs had a full season last year, that's a huge benefit for match fitness, co-ordination and less injuries. Besides the Panthers, who have a plethora of young talent to choose from, The Eels, who have played in finals, The Sharks, who atm like us, cannot beat a team currently in the 8 (yes, like us 1), The Roosters who are on the slide, and the Bunnies, who's form isn't dissimilar to ours.

Another point, if you look at the ladder, the current top 8 all have positive for and against, with the lowest being +38. The teams currently in the bottom 8 all have negative for and against the 'highest' being Manly with -28. Thats a massive 66 point swing.

Let's not forget also that we have had, suspended players and a fair few injuries, that have left us scratching even to fill the required team lists. From our season start of 29 players:
Alvaro has since moved on
Burgess hasn't had the match fitness required for 1st grade
Faamasili hasn't fired a shot
Ford is a perennial inbetweener ie: better than ressies standard but not up to 1st grade standard.
Max F, Burns, Sua and Moose have all had long time out injuries (moose likely again) and Rava has been out also.

One last point, which I picked up from @George Dragon on JA, we did have players with the flu v the Cows. Not an excuse mind you, however, we played basically at the furthest point from our home base, with a ressies game the next day.

 

[Dragon David]

How do we remove these dinosaurs?

Removal of the dinosaurs in charge of the club is something that is like removing blood out of stone - it can't be done but I see the only way that we can re-invent our football prowess and improvement on the ladder is by what I have written in the NRL Games thread.

Some very well written and thought out posts on here today, and many make good sense when you analise our current situation. Then there are some reactionary posts, which I totally understand given the performance of the team atm.

@True_Believer you are spot on. Most of our reserve grade, JF and even down to junior reps, haven't played a full season for 2yrs. Whereas, QLD teams, ran a 19 round + finals competition and you can see the benefits of that very clearly with Storm (2nd), Cowboys (3rd) and Broncos (4th), only the Titans are having a burp season, but their woes are really about players egos than performance. Add also that the last half of last season was played where? yep in QLD.

So, in reality, 3 of the current top 8 clubs had a full season last year, that's a huge benefit for match fitness, co-ordination and less injuries. Besides the Panthers, who have a plethora of young talent to choose from, The Eels, who have played in finals, The Sharks, who atm like us, cannot beat a team currently in the 8 (yes, like us 1), The Roosters who are on the slide, and the Bunnies, who's form isn't dissimilar to ours.

Another point, if you look at the ladder, the current top 8 all have positive for and against, with the lowest being +38. The teams currently in the bottom 8 all have negative for and against the 'highest' being Manly with -28. Thats a massive 66 point swing.

Let's not forget also that we have had, suspended players and a fair few injuries, that have left us scratching even to fill the required team lists. From our season start of 29 players:
Alvaro has since moved on
Burgess hasn't had the match fitness required for 1st grade
Faamasili hasn't fired a shot
Ford is a perennial inbetweener ie: better than ressies standard but not up to 1st grade standard.
Max F, Burns, Sua and Moose have all had long time out injuries (moose likely again) and Rava has been out also.

One last point, which I picked up from @George Dragon on JA, we did have players with the flu v the Cows. Not an excuse mind you, however, we played basically at the furthest point from our home base, with a ressies game the next day.

Great write up Dragonslayer as usual, thanks. Have been told that Andrew Webster said on the Footy Show that Cameron Ciraldo is heading our way when Hook finishes his contract with us. Have you heard this? He says you heard it first here on the Footy Show.

This would mean that he wants to see out his deal also at the Panthers which co-incides with Hook finishing at the end of 2023. His story is that he wants to come to us because of the nursery of young ones coming through in our system.

Somehow, I think that Ciraldo isn't a Gus Gould fan nor Tigers guy. The thought of the Dragons and what we have for the future is what he might be happy with.

 

[Dragonslayer]

Removal of the dinosaurs in charge of the club is something that is like removing blood out of stone - it can't be done but I see the only way that we can re-invent our football prowess and improvement on the ladder is by what I have written in the NRL Games thread.

Great write up Dragonslayer as usual, thanks. Have been told that Andrew Webster said on the Footy Show that Cameron Ciraldo is heading our way when Hook finishes his contract with us. Have you heard this? He says you heard it first here on the Footy Show.

This would mean that he wants to see out his deal also at the Panthers which co-incides with Hook finishing at the end of 2023. His story is that he wants to come to us because of the nursery of young ones coming through in our. system.

Somehow, I think that Ciraldo isn't a Gus Gould fan nor Tigers guy. The thought of the Dragons and what we have for the future is what he might be happy with.

Haven't heard that one, but would be a great get.

 

[I'm Hornby]

I think this all stems from a couple of key issues:

1. You need players in the lower grades putting pressure on the first grade for the players to feel like their positions are under threat. I don't think we have that happening as much as we would like. We are still trying to foster competition between positions. Some are there, but others still need work. Kody and Tyrell I think is an example of where it's working. The forwards is a massive gap at the moment. I see us as actively working on this.

2. We haven't had the KOE for a full 2 years prior to this year. Many of the younger players really haven't had exposure to that step up in intensity or consistent game time in the lower grades. This gap in lower grades highlights the lack of coordination we've had in previous years. If we had been doing a good job of this prior to the 2020 cancellation of the KOE cup, we may not have seen ourselves in the current predicament where we are still trying to develop players that potentially should have already been capable of the transition. This not only works for the KOE cup but all grades. There is A LOT of work to do here and unfortunately is going to take time.

3. I think the old brigade is a stop gap to buy time to work on the first 2 points. If you look at the roster, you'll see there are a fair few of the experienced signings only signed for this year and will be leaving at the end of the year. There will still be a handful remaining but unless we can sign some good quality players in the meantime, we'll need to keep them on to ensure we're building in the lower grades. AM cops it deluxe on here and I agree that he isn't the long term future. But, we do have a significant hole in our hooker stocks at the moment. Conner will hopefully get his chance but given the position, spending some time going through rigours of week in week out game time in KOE will put him in good stead for the step up. But that then leaves a hole in our KOE and further down - hence the pathways and lower grade structures playing a role.

As I've said elsewhere, this isn't just about the first grade team. It's about building that structure all the way down which we've failed to do previously. We've bought well in a few positions this year but there is still work to do to build competition for those positions going forward. It's alright to say "throw this player in here now" but unless you have those structures in place you are potentially throwing players in too early without adequate preparation, breeding indifference or hoping for short term success. None of which makes us an attractive club to play for or ensures we are entrenched in the top 8 every year.

Totally agree with what you've outlined here and I hope it's something we continue to work towards.

Obviously competition for spots and having a handful of juniors banging the door down for places is a great thing and something we'd all like to see in the coming seasons.

I would still say though that even without the above, by continually selecting under performing players or players with attitude problems (either or both) we're sending the wrong message which is that you're on a safe bet as a dragons player in the top 17.

If this continue it will make the job of building competition for spots and having genuine depth harder as the players coming through won't know what they're playing for and our team has no identity or culture to build on.

So I'd argue that dropping players temporarily to send a message now and starting to build that culture/set standards amongst the playing group would now be a proportionate action by Hook and something I would fully support.

By the way I think the line needs to be drawn, that players get dropped on attitude not ability. In my mind McCullough's attitude is great, his ability is lacking now, so I don't think you drop him like others do. However the three blokes I named yesterday (Lawrie, Bird, Lomax) all have ability but attitude is their problem at the moment, so let's change that and give them a wake up call even if that means the blokes who replace them are worse or aren't ready.

As I said it's a temporary measure aimed at improving the culture and attitude of the playing group, not a magic bullet that will get the team winning instead of losing.

If these guys were dropped and came back in 2-3 weeks I guarantee you we would be a much better team for it when they're back and that would be the whole purpose.

 

[Dragon David]

Haven't heard that one, but would be a great get.

For sure and I hope so.

 

[71saintsimon]

Good post!
Prime example is our club prided itself on giving a 29 year old journeyman winger his NRL debut.
Other teams throw a 19 year old kid on the wing with speed to burn and take the risk with confidence.

Exactly, and u watch what they wil do soon they wil release Jayden Sullivan and extend Ben hunt and look for a few old forwards released from the bulldogs, standard by dinosaur management and coaching staff

 

[OneEyedDragon]

Post of the year! A really succinct analysis of the situation.
I just hope that you are right and that this kind of thinking is operating behind the scenes at the club rather than the way it appears - that we buy plodders and journeymen cos we can't attract better players to the club or sit on our hands while people like Nicho Hynes come onto the open market.

You are right NOTB. An excellent, well thought out analysis of the issues at the Dragons. Good job @True_Believer .

 

[True_Believer]

@Dragonslayer

It may have been one of your previous posts that I had read that essentially said the same thing. And your points about the QLD lower grades is very telling. Having said that, it's just one part of a bigger problem that I believe we are working on.

Out of the list you've mentioned, we've got Farmer, Moose and Ford off contract at the end of the year. George still has another year but there's been talk that he may also leave at the end of the year. It's hard to know whether we're going to be able to fill all of these spots with valuable players but I struggle to see us doing that from within. I think this might take a bit of time to get right.

@I'm Hornby

Agree on those 3 players. Particularly Lomax and Bird. Lomax needs some time in reserves to get his head straight. I think he's trying but he's gone off the rails a bit. Problem with Lomax is the kicking (although he's been a bit hit and miss in that department as well). Bird on the other hand could come off the bench. Otherwise I don't see him filling a starting position. Again, trying, but just not getting it right. Who in reserves has been playing well enough to come in and replace them? For Bird, who in the second row stocks comes through? Sua obviously, and maybe Sims. But with Sims moving on we should be looking at others to step up. Fui hasn't played super well when he's been in the team and the couple of games from Ford have been forgettable. Have heard nothing from Burns. So still we've got no real pressure in these positions at the moment. I think Fui is your best option at this point in time.

With AM, I think his defence is pretty good as well. He has a consistently high tackle efficiency and makes a lot of tackles during the game. That's got to contribute to his fatigue during the game. Guessing that's why he's now coming off the bench. But yeah, I don't think dropping him is the answer. There was another post around the missed tackles for Amone, Hunt and Bird. Take AM out and replace with Sullivan and you're essentially creating an even wider hole in the middle for the opposition.

 

[Gippsy]

From what I've heard and seen in the last couple of weeks, Burns has been going well. Probably deserves a bench spot at least.

 

[possm]

In my opini0on, our biggest problems are at the Board level and not much will change until this problem is addressed. Appointing Craig Young as Chairman of the Board (along with Doust being the big power-brokers of the Club) gives the wrong message to everyone. It says that self-interest is rewarded at St George Illawarra.

I am very sure that the appointment of Dean Young as our next head coach is at the front of mind of our Chairman right now. Griffin will stay in place until the Board is ready to appoint Dean.

The only solution to our problems is to first replace the entire St George Leagues Club Board, then the St George Football Club Board, and then those St George Illawarra Board members from the St George side. A really big feat but that is what is required to get some decent people in charge. Hopefully, if this happens, the WIN Corp representatives on the Board will wither change their ways or join the idea of change.

A big influx of St George Leagues Club members with voting rights is what will begin this process. Ideally, there would also need to be some amongst these new members that are of a mind to bring about such change.

 

[Illusion]

In my opini0on, our biggest problems are at the Board level and not much will change until this problem is addressed. Appointing Craig Young as Chairman of the Board (along with Doust being the big power-brokers of the Club) gives the wrong message to everyone. It says that self-interest is rewarded at St George Illawarra.

I am very sure that the appointment of Dean Young as our next head coach is at the front of mind of our Chairman right now. Griffin will stay in place until the Board is ready to appoint Dean.

The only solution to our problems is to first replace the entire St George Leagues Club Board, then the St George Football Club Board, and then those St George Illawarra Board members from the St George side. A really big feat but that is what is required to get some decent people in charge. Hopefully, if this happens, the WIN Corp representatives on the Board will wither change their ways or join the idea of change.

A big influx of St George Leagues Club members with voting rights is what will begin this process. Ideally, there would also need to be some amongst these new members that are of a mind to bring about such change.

Now I know why Johnston bailed have a go at the bloke standing next to him ....

 

[Gourley's Socks]

I'm not convinced that the much lauded "competition for spots" is always a good thing - particularly for young kids. In cricket for example, much is made of knowing you have the backing of the coach and that you don't have to be constantly looking over your shoulder and afraid of failure. Obviously this grace doesn't last forever but I think there is a place for it to a point.

It might also be a generational thing in that the older players are the ones more likely to respond positively rather than negatively to that kind of pressure. The irony of that though is that it's those old-school types so loved by Hook that know their selection is assured.

So the kids who don't respond as well to tough-love end up getting it in spades and the ones who would deal well with it are spared.

 

[Saints Forever]

Unsure how you got that from those responses.

He said they had been focussed on tying up the young players to-date and were looking to go back to the market in the next month or so.

He also said that the focus of this year is get to a point of consistency (and he did say we are far too inconsistent at the moment) but he talked about his goal of building towards a more positive 2023 by getting the consistency and positive game play as the year progresses - build strongly towards the back end of the year.

I didn't hear him say anything about being far off the top 4 teams.

Disagree with Hook

In my view we have been consistent

Consistently mediocre

 

[to_ddeath]

Now I know why Johnston bailed have a go at the bloke standing next to him ....View attachment 62659

That truly is the definition of a snout in the trough on the right there…

 

[mickeylane]

Removal of the dinosaurs in charge of the club is something that is like removing blood out of stone - it can't be done but I see the only way that we can re-invent our football prowess and improvement on the ladder is by what I have written in the NRL Games thread.

Great write up Dragonslayer as usual, thanks. Have been told that Andrew Webster said on the Footy Show that Cameron Ciraldo is heading our way when Hook finishes his contract with us. Have you heard this? He says you heard it first here on the Footy Show.

This would mean that he wants to see out his deal also at the Panthers which co-incides with Hook finishing at the end of 2023. His story is that he wants to come to us because of the nursery of young ones coming through in our system.

Somehow, I think that Ciraldo isn't a Gus Gould fan nor Tigers guy. The thought of the Dragons and what we have for the future is what he might be happy with.

I never heard the Ciraldo rumour that would be ideal if thats the case...but i still think Young senior is grooming Young Jnr for the 2024 role

 

[mickeylane]

Now I know why Johnston bailed have a go at the bloke standing next to him ....View attachment 62659

Is this a serious photo?

 

[BBTB]

I never heard the Ciraldo rumour that would be ideal if thats the case...but i still think Young senior is grooming Young Jnr for the 2024 role

There is no Ciraldo rumour.
Webster on the 9 Footy Show said
He would like it if.
Ciraldo came to SGI when his contract ran out at Penrith
2023....same time as HOOKS
contract is up.
No rumour, just some wishful thinking from Andrew Webster.

 

[mickeylane]

There is no Ciraldo rumour.
Webster on the 9 Footy Show said
He would like it if.
Ciraldo came to SGI when his contract ran out at Penrith
2023....same time as HOOKS
contract is up.
No rumour, just some wishful thinking from Andrew Webster.

sad face