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SBW/Robbie Fruen Combo

butchmcdick

Post Whore
Messages
52,315
well wait till after the WC next year, when everyone leaves, however it happeneds all the time, just in small numbers, rather than after WC when everyone leaves in recent times we've lost

rudi wulf
anthony tuitavake
tamati ellison
tim bateman
Jason Shoemark(leaving in couple of months)

all to OS, so there is the 'middle men' all centres gone overseas, and now we have young players coming thru the ranks

with conrad and ma'a occupying
theres
luke mcalister
SBW
Fruen
benson stanley
rene ranger
Kahui

all playing for centre spots in all blacks, after the WC, i expect conrad and ma'a to leave, luke Mcalister to leave
maybe to leave
bensen, SBW and ranger,

but if they are smart about it, they'd stay, coz all the good centres (and this will be helped if NZ win the WC), will go OS eventually and they are more chance of a starting spot, the longer they grind it out

In saying that, there are some good centres coming up, with the likes of Jayden Hayward of Naki, Stanley Brothers, Fruen, ryan crotty, charlie ngtai, shaun treeby to name a few and this is helped if NZ keeps winning the U20's WC,

plus, its not like, OS offers millions of dollars to every single player in NZ ITM cup that cant make the All Blacks, the lowest contract in ITM cup is about 80,000 for a starting player, when they make a S14 contract this goes up, so its not like they r on the mimimum wage in NZ and if they go OS they will be paid millions, OS they might get couple of hundred thousand a season at most, but the quality of rugby can be lower most of the time, and they are away from family, friends, so its not like OS is the best thing for you personally or your career, its just about the money.

SO in conclusion, centres (to narrow it down) will always leave NZ if they cant crack All Blacks, as seen by those named above, however the production line in NZ is so good, that theres always numerous players to fill that void. After WC's theres always a drain, but theres a strong number of capable centres to step in should conrad and Ma'a leave.

hope it answers your question

Out of interest are there many young (under 20's) fringe players who head overseas to Europe and chase the cash instead of staying in NZ and grinding it out hoping to make the Blacks eventually ? Have you lost any potential stars to the lure of the cash on offer elsewhere ?

If not surely it can't be too far off, I get that you are away from friends and family and the standard of rugby isn't as good but gee how long before a club ( Say a french one) attempts to sign a 19 yo with a massive offer. Money talks and when you convert pounds to the Kiwi Dollar it would have to be enough to make you think twice.
 

Alehana

Juniors
Messages
1,692
Out of interest are there many young (under 20's) fringe players who head overseas to Europe and chase the cash instead of staying in NZ and grinding it out hoping to make the Blacks eventually ? Have you lost any potential stars to the lure of the cash on offer elsewhere ?

If not surely it can't be too far off, I get that you are away from friends and family and the standard of rugby isn't as good but gee how long before a club ( Say a french one) attempts to sign a 19 yo with a massive offer. Money talks and when you convert pounds to the Kiwi Dollar it would have to be enough to make you think twice.

generally the retention is very good, which is suprising, as money does talk, i think the NZRU has identified this problem and set about to stop it, theres always talks of poaching going on, a few years back the Western Force wanted to sign Tawera Kerr Barlow, while he was still in school (inm his last yr), however Waikato step in, and put him on a full time contract and now hes represented NZ at secondary schools, U20 and playing for waikato and Cheifs next yr,
most if not all the U20 players have already been signed to a ITM cup team, before they make their debut for U20, they get signed up (part time i think) if they make the NZ schools team, so its not as tho they can just leave, then they play club rugby (first grade, which is below ITM), untill U20, or if they r good enough straight to ITM, then if they make NZ U20, after that they will start playing ITM cup, those who dont make u20's wont get contract extensions so they could go overseas i guess, but by then they are 20 yr olds playing club rugby, and if they were worth keeping NZRU would have kept them, hence why OS clubs aren't waiting at the door of Ponsonby rugby club in Auckland for the next SonnyBill,
IF you think about it logically, if you make NZ secondary schools then NZ under 20's then an ITM cup team, chances are one day you are a real possibility at the All Blacks, which is a huge lure. If they are playing super rugby within 2 years of u20's then they are on 100+ and for a 22 yr old that is massive.
another thing NZ does well, is they play their 'future stars' such as Jonah Lomu, Christian Cullen, Joe Rokocoko, Ma'a Nonu and in recent times, Victor Vito and Julian Savea, ect in rugby 7's, so they lock them into NZ rugby.

However they are some that have 'slipped thru the cracks', players such as Seekope Keepu, played for NZ u19, 21 played for Counties Manakau and cheifs wider training group, before he was signed by the waratahs and now is a wallaby, i'm not sure if it was the money, but he would have got a pay rise, as he was only part time s14, while he went full time in sydney,
another player is Lifeimi Mafi, played NZ u19, 21 and sevens, played for manawatu and taranaki and was in hurricanes wider training group, but went to munster, that was definately a pay rise,
Tim Bateman, played nz secondary schools 2 yrs in a row, played for nz u19, 21 and maori, and was a crusaders starter last yr went to japan for financial security - had a young family

having spoken to some itm cup players who arr just out of the u20's programs, they are well aware of the massive cash offers on overseas, and there are a lot of nz rugby players who don't make u20's or dont make a impact to warrent attention in itm let alone s14, playing oversease, but u dont really hear about them, however i get a sense that they want to achiever higher success in NZ, then if they cant crack it, they go OS,
sure players leave early for financial security, but they can only take what they get offered, and if they are locked into NZ rugby (by playing sevens) but cant make regular starts in Super rugby, then the demand isn't going to be as big as they'd hoped, sure it will be a pay rise.
 

hellteam

First Grade
Messages
6,536
barnes isnt your problem... its the overated hack who is in there instead of him... Giteu was good for a year or two... but he is sliding fast... Aus would be better off with a mainly Reds backline.

Giteau is better than Barnes (just), but they both suck
 

butchmcdick

Post Whore
Messages
52,315
generally the retention is very good, which is suprising, as money does talk, i think the NZRU has identified this problem and set about to stop it, theres always talks of poaching going on, a few years back the Western Force wanted to sign Tawera Kerr Barlow, while he was still in school (inm his last yr), however Waikato step in, and put him on a full time contract and now hes represented NZ at secondary schools, U20 and playing for waikato and Cheifs next yr,
most if not all the U20 players have already been signed to a ITM cup team, before they make their debut for U20, they get signed up (part time i think) if they make the NZ schools team, so its not as tho they can just leave, then they play club rugby (first grade, which is below ITM), untill U20, or if they r good enough straight to ITM, then if they make NZ U20, after that they will start playing ITM cup, those who dont make u20's wont get contract extensions so they could go overseas i guess, but by then they are 20 yr olds playing club rugby, and if they were worth keeping NZRU would have kept them, hence why OS clubs aren't waiting at the door of Ponsonby rugby club in Auckland for the next SonnyBill,
IF you think about it logically, if you make NZ secondary schools then NZ under 20's then an ITM cup team, chances are one day you are a real possibility at the All Blacks, which is a huge lure. If they are playing super rugby within 2 years of u20's then they are on 100+ and for a 22 yr old that is massive.
another thing NZ does well, is they play their 'future stars' such as Jonah Lomu, Christian Cullen, Joe Rokocoko, Ma'a Nonu and in recent times, Victor Vito and Julian Savea, ect in rugby 7's, so they lock them into NZ rugby.

However they are some that have 'slipped thru the cracks', players such as Seekope Keepu, played for NZ u19, 21 played for Counties Manakau and cheifs wider training group, before he was signed by the waratahs and now is a wallaby, i'm not sure if it was the money, but he would have got a pay rise, as he was only part time s14, while he went full time in sydney,
another player is Lifeimi Mafi, played NZ u19, 21 and sevens, played for manawatu and taranaki and was in hurricanes wider training group, but went to munster, that was definately a pay rise,
Tim Bateman, played nz secondary schools 2 yrs in a row, played for nz u19, 21 and maori, and was a crusaders starter last yr went to japan for financial security - had a young family

having spoken to some itm cup players who arr just out of the u20's programs, they are well aware of the massive cash offers on overseas, and there are a lot of nz rugby players who don't make u20's or dont make a impact to warrent attention in itm let alone s14, playing oversease, but u dont really hear about them, however i get a sense that they want to achiever higher success in NZ, then if they cant crack it, they go OS,
sure players leave early for financial security, but they can only take what they get offered, and if they are locked into NZ rugby (by playing sevens) but cant make regular starts in Super rugby, then the demand isn't going to be as big as they'd hoped, sure it will be a pay rise.

Cool thanks for that mate.

I seem to recall a few years ago there was some serious concerns about the future of the ITM comp and that the major threat seemed to be the lure of the overseas cash on offer to the second tier players.

Good to see the NZRU hae been proactive about things.

Do you think there will come a time when there is either a QLD or NSW side in the ITM comp or a time when Australians will be able to play in the ITM comp ? I guess with the expansion of the Super 14's next season it will be difficult to fit in.
 

Alehana

Juniors
Messages
1,692
Cool thanks for that mate.

I seem to recall a few years ago there was some serious concerns about the future of the ITM comp and that the major threat seemed to be the lure of the overseas cash on offer to the second tier players.

Good to see the NZRU hae been proactive about things.

Do you think there will come a time when there is either a QLD or NSW side in the ITM comp or a time when Australians will be able to play in the ITM comp ? I guess with the expansion of the Super 14's next season it will be difficult to fit in.

Yeh, that 'concerns over the future' wil keep coming up, especailly after WC when a player drain happens, and the comp will keep getting changed (i think they r changing it after the WC anyway) to keep it financially stable, seems to be a cycle of that, but the fact is, there will always be a NPC in NZ.

As for Aussies playing in it, there are a few atm, Pat Oconnor is playing for NOrthland, former EWF player, and now a wallaby, Luke Rooney (former NRL for Panthers) is playing for i think Hawkes Bay, but he may be injured, James Hilgendorf and Brock James (former EWF players) used to play for Taranaki, Steve Devine (before he was a kiwi) came over to play for Auckland, then stayed, Ben Batger (not sure if u remember him) but he played for Waratahs ages ago, played for Hawkes Bay, so theres a few around, but, NZ rugby like to take care of their own i guess, their policy is only foreign players if there is not a viable solution (ie if they dont have a plyer for a position thats local, then they can import foreigners till one comes up) which is fair enough, if ur a kiwi, but for everyone else it is bad if u really want to play,
I was hoping that with the expanded Super series, that selection for All Blacks would be changed from you have to play ITM then super rugby in NZ to make AB,'s to you have to play ITM cup, but can play Super rugby in either RSA, AUS or NZ- so a more even spread of talent would occur, and players who missed out could from ITM cup could get contracts with other franchises, this would stop the fight over player eligability, as long as players signed on with NZRU before going to say the Lions or Brumbies, and would allow kiwis who have grown up in Australia to play for All Blacks (ie Quade Cooper, Christian Lealifano) i'm not saying they want to, but right now they didn't really have a choice, i think its all about giving players a choice.

but IMO super rugby is way too long, i guess thats come about coz rugby is a buisness, especially in Austrlias 'saturated' sports market, with rugby becoming less popular compared with afl, nrl and a league, hence why theres just about a bledisloe every week, kinda ruins the histroy and tradition of it all, and its happening to super rugby,
 

butchmcdick

Post Whore
Messages
52,315
I agree about the bledisloe. I grew up watching Australia get arse f**ked by the blacks year after year in the bledisloe. God how I hated sean fitzpatrick (in hindsight it was because he was such a great player) in the same way many of my kiwi mates hated gregan. I disliked campese as well, sure he could run but he couldn't tackle and everytime he got the ball the commentators shot jizz all over the shop in anticipation of his next move.

IMO a four match bledisloe series screams cash in the history of the cup to the highest bidders.

I too would like it if the Super clubs could have players from overseas playing for them without it effecting their chances of rep selection. I guess the SAFFA's have thrown in the towel about this and are now picking their best player regardless of where they play. In the end I think that both the NZ and Aus rugby boards are pushing sh*t uphill in not picking players for higher honours that don't play in their respective domestic comps.

It's an interesting point about the Quade Coopers and co who could play for the Blacks. With so many of the junior teams in Oz dominated by polynesians it would certainly strengthen NZ rugby and weaken Oz rugby if Cooper and co had a chance to play for the blacks. Are Cooper and Co eligable for NZ Moari selection ?

Yo are right about the market in Oz. AFL, League, Union and Soccer all competing for juniors and sponorship makes for a pretty cut throat market. Is NRL getting more popular over there ? I live in Hamilton for a time in 92 (girlfriend was going to uni there) and at that time Manly were the team most of NZ went for (Ridge, Iro, Williams etc etc)
 

hellteam

First Grade
Messages
6,536
And Sonny Bill begins his inevitable rise to the All Blacks inside centre starting job...

You a believer yet Te Kaha?
 

Te Kaha

First Grade
Messages
5,998
And Sonny Bill begins his inevitable rise to the All Blacks inside centre starting job...

You a believer yet Te Kaha?

I always said he was a good player... but he still wont displace Nonu in the starting team for a big match... but he will make an outstanding replacement late in a big game.
 

shiznit

Coach
Messages
14,806
i get the feeling that we could be going from a Nonu & Smith midfield combo to a Nonu, Smith & Williams combo...

either way... its good for NZ
 

aqua_duck

Coach
Messages
18,640
Was watching the waratahs crusaders game today and SBW and Fruean were both quite impressive, Fruean looked like he had Cobb webs on him, just impossible to tackle one on one once he gets a head of steam up. I was very impressed with Sonny too, we all knew he could offload and he could run but his distribution before the line has improved 110% since his days at the dogs. Hes very good at drawing the man and passing just before the line. We all know physically he's an absolute specimen of almost freaky proportions but he's also very deceptively skillful. Some might question his ability to play inside centre because he can't kick but in all honesty even if he had a decent kicking game I'd still encourage to back himself with ball in hand.
 

Te Kaha

First Grade
Messages
5,998
Well its two games into the tri-Nations.. only two more to the world cup... and SBW is just as far away from ousting the Nonu/Smith centre combo as he was when he first signed up...

In fact, while he will make the world cup squad, having him on the bench leaves it very unbalanced... could we see him dropped form the gameday 22 for the big games?
 
Messages
350
Nonu has certainly stepped up when needed to keep SBW at bay. If I were coach I'd still keep him on the bench. If you're down by 6 points with 10 minutes remianing, it would be great to be able to call on SBW to do something sprecial...
 

Red Bear

Referee
Messages
20,882
Laughed at the pic of Mundine in the sheds with Sonny after the Bloodyslow cup win on the weekend, in full NZ gear of course.
 

Te Kaha

First Grade
Messages
5,998
Not a chance in hell...

barring injury, or a massive drop in form next year, SBW will NOT start a major Test match ahead of Nonu... There is no chance the AB coaches will split up probably the no1 centre combination in world Rugby in a world cup year... that would be beyond stupid...

SBW, if he keeps up his development, will be the impact player in the last 20 of a Test match.

Well ten months on and I was almost correct... Nonu/Smith have started all the important games as i said... but SBW hasnt even made it to the bench...

Anybody who thought there would be a change in the midfield in a world cup year was kidding themselves.. Its just a shame that SBW has fallen away... he could have been great.
 

shiznit

Coach
Messages
14,806
Well ten months on and I was almost correct... Nonu/Smith have started all the important games as i said... but SBW hasnt even made it to the bench...

Anybody who thought there would be a change in the midfield in a world cup year was kidding themselves.. Its just a shame that SBW has fallen away... he could have been great.
well dont count your chickens yet...

all it takes is one really bad game by Nonu and the tide can turn... we all know how we can be when things aren't going so well...

and to be fair to SBW... i would say a big reason for Nonu's form in the black jersey this season will come down to the competition for that jersey.

i agree that SBW hasn't overtaken Nonu... but then he doesnt need to overtake him to have a positive impact on the team.
 

Te Kaha

First Grade
Messages
5,998
well dont count your chickens yet...

all it takes is one really bad game by Nonu and the tide can turn... we all know how we can be when things aren't going so well...

and to be fair to SBW... i would say a big reason for Nonu's form in the black jersey this season will come down to the competition for that jersey.

i agree that SBW hasn't overtaken Nonu... but then he doesnt need to overtake him to have a positive impact on the team.

I doubt that... Nonu was in crap form this year, untill he got in the the ABs.. then it was all go... one bad game wont change that... unless its in the knock out rounds of the WC in which canse it really wont matter afterwards... last weeks game was the one that SBW had to shine in... he didnt on attack, although did very well on defense and it wasnt enough... He will start in one or two of the pool games.. but baring Injury he wont get another shot at the big guns... he is just not versatile enough for a bench spot... he either starts or isnt there at all.
 
Messages
350
I doubt that... Nonu was in crap form this year, untill he got in the the ABs.. then it was all go... one bad game wont change that... unless its in the knock out rounds of the WC in which canse it really wont matter afterwards... last weeks game was the one that SBW had to shine in... he didnt on attack, although did very well on defense and it wasnt enough... He will start in one or two of the pool games.. but baring Injury he wont get another shot at the big guns... he is just not versatile enough for a bench spot... he either starts or isnt there at all.
Yeah I agree. Nonu was crap all year and then fired up when he donned the Black jersey. One bad game from Nonu won't get SBW any closer to forcing his way into the starting team, and there really isn't room for him on the bench. He will wreak some havoc in the pol games and thenbe a spectator when the finals start. If he coninues to develop at his current rate and thrive in Super rugby then he'll force his way into the team but not this year. It should also be noted that SBW was playing with the Crusaders which no doubt helped his cause. I don't see him being as damaging next year whoever he ends up playing for.
 

shiznit

Coach
Messages
14,806
i need to probably explain what i mean by one bad game... in NZ we have a habit of over reacting to losses.

If Ma'a Nonu plays a terrible game where he makes big errors and costs us a game.... say for example this weekend...

everyone will come out of the woodwork and start attacking him... its the nature of being an All Black. the only guys probably exempt from that would be McCaw & Carter.

its our greatest strength... because not only do we not accept losses... we expect our wins to be in a certain way. we expect perfection from the All Blacks. if they dont produce it... they will hear about it.

and our greatest weakness... we over react to setbacks... we get paranoid and do stupid shit... and we make scapegoats... we will blindly overlook 79mins of brilliant play if a player has 1 bad minute of football that costs us a test against Australia.

if Ma'a f**ks up... there will be massice pressure for SBW to be at least reinstated to the bench.
 
Messages
350
i need to probably explain what i mean by one bad game... in NZ we have a habit of over reacting to losses.

If Ma'a Nonu plays a terrible game where he makes big errors and costs us a game.... say for example this weekend...

everyone will come out of the woodwork and start attacking him... its the nature of being an All Black. the only guys probably exempt from that would be McCaw & Carter.

its our greatest strength... because not only do we not accept losses... we expect our wins to be in a certain way. we expect perfection from the All Blacks. if they dont produce it... they will hear about it.

and our greatest weakness... we over react to setbacks... we get paranoid and do stupid shit... and we make scapegoats... we will blindly overlook 79mins of brilliant play if a player has 1 bad minute of football that costs us a test against Australia.

if Ma'a f**ks up... there will be massice pressure for SBW to be at least reinstated to the bench.
Fair enough. I'll be at the game on Saturday. Hopefully the Wallabies get up and we can sit back and see who the AB scaprgoat will be this time :D
 

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