Signings for 2020 and future looking team

[Old Timer]

I’ll just leave that there..

As mentioned to you(r) hours ago, you’re happy to accept a guilty man with open arms but willing to discard a potentially innocent man to the scrap heap.

This makes no sense.

You also clearly stated in your defence of AFB that you believed it was commercial but that you disagreed with making a commercial decision to discard a player.

They’re your words, there in writing.

I’m just curious to know why you’ve changed your position.


As also mentioned to you(r) hours ago, the reason Jack can’t play is due to the NRL, not the Dragons. Sacking him at this point would leave us open to a legal case with more commercial ramifications than keeping him.

How do you not get this?

Knock knock anybody home.
Re AFB there were known things about his situation and I clearly said that whilst I didn't agree with a commercial decision I could understand it and I was more livered at the amount of time spent by them making that commercial decision (a point that you fail to recognise). I basically said if they were going to do it they should have done it there and then and not waisted 6 months and I questioned why invest 6 months in him then abandon him.
JDB's situation is entirely different and comes after the introduction of harsh law from the NRL.
JDB has absolutely no certainty about his position and there never was any certainty about his position and as there is no certainty a hard nosed commercial decision was / is required.
It is obvious that his stand down is NRL related and I have oft argued that the club should have taken them on and got crystal clarity from the moment the policy was inshrined.
Notwithstanding that I would suspect that the club has a policy re bringing the game or the club into disrepute and on that basis would have sufficient grounds to terminate him.
Plenty of players dumped by clubs for being errant behaviour or being subject to police investigations and all those clubs survived the termination so your conjecture as to what happens if they sack JDB is merely that conjecture.
Seeing JDB is claiming to be innocent of all charges would you be happy for them to sign him up for a further 3 years before he gets to court?

 

[getsmarty]

Dragons punished in brutal NRL pre-season

• NRL
  
  
  
  Tariq Sims says St George Illawarra will be learning to cope with adversity in the NRL pre-season
• 
  
• New-look coaching staff will put St George Illawarra through a military-style pre-season as the club aims to restore supporters' faith following a dismal 2019 NRL season.
  
  The brutal standards were revealed as players returned to training in scorching conditions in Wollongong this week, with punishments dished out for poor body language, including hands on hips or heads.
  
  Attention to detail is a big focus and players will be expected to overcome challenges, show no signs of pain, and look ready for the next one.
  
  It's the result of a football department review, conducted in consultation with Phil Gould, which found the club was lacking in culture and resilience.
  
  "They're going to make it more like a drill camp which is good because we're setting very high standards for ourselves," said prop Josh Kerr.
  
  "We've already picked up on a few things we were doing last year and we're changing how we do things.
  
  "I'm speaking a bit early here but it's going to be a complete new-look Dragons side next year.
  
  "It's a whole new side. I think we'll be a lot stronger mental side and physical side."
  
  The Dragons finished 15th last season, their lowest as a merged club, winning only eight games.
  
  While refusing to offer an excuse, State of Origin representative Tariq Sims said the players struggled to cope with a big injury toll and the long-running drama surrounding Jack de Belin being stood down by the NRL indefinitely.
  
  "We just need to be better with dealing with adversity," he said.
  
  "I think that's definitely a message that will be coming through.
  
  "The people that we have involved with the club now with the coaching staff, I think they're going to be involved and play a big role in us players dealing with adversity along the way."
  
  Dragons players were also reviewed at the end of the season, and Sims said no one was given a sugar-coated version of the truth.
  
  The 29-year-old said criticism of the club's culture hurt, but it has motivated the squad to take the heat off coach Paul McGregor.
  
  "Our coach comes under a lot of criticism there and he cops a lot of heat for performances that we dish up and to be honest a few of our performances last year were pretty embarrassing," Sims said.
  
  "That's the kind of bloke Mary (McGregor) is, he wears his heart on his sleeve and he'll step in and take the heat, take the big bullets for us so the confidence of the playing group doesn't get knocked."
  
  Players were put through their first conditioning session under the watchful eye of new strength and conditioning coach Adrian Jimenez on Tuesday.
  
  Former Cronulla coach Shane Flanagan is expected to join the club as an assistant in December as the Dragons finalise his contract.
  
  The club also announced on Tuesday chief executive Brian Johnston will depart the role in March.
  
  Johnston informed the board of his intention to step down last month to focus on his family and farm in Dunedoo.
  
  The Dragons board will meet later in November to discuss the process for finding a replacement to Johnston.
  
  Australian Associated Press

https://www.illawarramercury.com.au...-pre-season-after-disappointing-year/?cs=3713

 

[getsmarty]

St George Illawarra Dragons prepared for tough pre-season after disappointing year

• Cameron Mee

Dragons Den

Back in action: Tariq Sims and the Dragons returned to training this week. Picture: Sylvia Liber.

After the worst season in the joint-venture's history it's no surprise St George Illawarra players are preparing for a brutal pre-season.

On Tuesday they received a taste of what to expect, with the squad put through the first gruelling fitness session of the summer.

Veteran Tariq Sims was lucky enough to miss a portion of the session, the NSW star still on the comeback trail from double groin surgery, but he said the players recognise a tough pre-season is exactly what they need to ensure 2020 is a more successful year.

"There's going to be absolutely no shit this pre-season," Sims said. "There's going to be no short cuts. We're going to be pushing each other to be the best version of what the club wants to see us.

"We need to repay our fans and instill the trust back in them and make sure we're coming out doing what we need to do to get the job done."

Sims carried a pair of groin strains for the entirety of the 2019 season, with a heavy injury toll preventing the 29-year-old from taking the time off needed to recover.

Eventually the damage was too great and Sims underwent double groin surgery in August. Now, 13 weeks after the operation, the powerful forward is enjoying running pain free for the first time in months.


"I did it in the Rabbitohs Charity Shield match, both of them. It was a tough year, we managed the situation as best as we could to make sure that I was out on the field. It was one of those years, I needed a couple of weeks break but unfortunately we were dealing with some injuries so I just couldn't get the time off.

"I went for a trot yesterday and I was saying to the boys that were running, it feels so good to run without being in pain or having to warm up for 25 minutes just to run. Now I'm over that injury, I just need to make sure I'm focusing on rehabbing and getting back to where I need to be."

Sims was greeted by a number of new faces when he arrived at WIN Stadium on Monday, with assistant coach James Shepherd and new strength and conditioning coach Adrian Jimenez among a revamped coaching staff.

Not present was head coach Paul McGregor, who is currently in the United States on a professional development tour and Shane Flanagan, the currently banned coach who will likely sign on as an assistant coach in the coming weeks.

While he has never worked with Flanagan previously, Sims said it would be exciting to train under the premiership-winning coach.

"I just heard about it then, apparently Flanno's coming. A bloke of his calibre and coaching experience, he'll lead to bettering our leadership group as well.

"I don't know him from a bar of soap, what I've seen is he's very strict but a bloke that demands respect because he's earned it.

"If it is true, that's great for the club. I think it's going to be great for us as a playing group and also when Mary gets back from his overseas trip, most of the squad will be back together."


https://www.illawarramercury.com.au...-pre-season-after-disappointing-year/?cs=3713

 

[Dragonslayer]

Dragons punished in brutal NRL pre-season

• NRL
  
  
  
  Tariq Sims says St George Illawarra will be learning to cope with adversity in the NRL pre-season
• 
  
• New-look coaching staff will put St George Illawarra through a military-style pre-season as the club aims to restore supporters' faith following a dismal 2019 NRL season.
  
  The brutal standards were revealed as players returned to training in scorching conditions in Wollongong this week, with punishments dished out for poor body language, including hands on hips or heads.
  
  Attention to detail is a big focus and players will be expected to overcome challenges, show no signs of pain, and look ready for the next one.
  
  It's the result of a football department review, conducted in consultation with Phil Gould, which found the club was lacking in culture and resilience.
  
  "They're going to make it more like a drill camp which is good because we're setting very high standards for ourselves," said prop Josh Kerr.
  
  "We've already picked up on a few things we were doing last year and we're changing how we do things.
  
  "I'm speaking a bit early here but it's going to be a complete new-look Dragons side next year.
  
  "It's a whole new side. I think we'll be a lot stronger mental side and physical side."
  
  The Dragons finished 15th last season, their lowest as a merged club, winning only eight games.
  
  While refusing to offer an excuse, State of Origin representative Tariq Sims said the players struggled to cope with a big injury toll and the long-running drama surrounding Jack de Belin being stood down by the NRL indefinitely.
  
  "We just need to be better with dealing with adversity," he said.
  
  "I think that's definitely a message that will be coming through.
  
  "The people that we have involved with the club now with the coaching staff, I think they're going to be involved and play a big role in us players dealing with adversity along the way."
  
  Dragons players were also reviewed at the end of the season, and Sims said no one was given a sugar-coated version of the truth.
  
  The 29-year-old said criticism of the club's culture hurt, but it has motivated the squad to take the heat off coach Paul McGregor.
  
  "Our coach comes under a lot of criticism there and he cops a lot of heat for performances that we dish up and to be honest a few of our performances last year were pretty embarrassing," Sims said.
  
  "That's the kind of bloke Mary (McGregor) is, he wears his heart on his sleeve and he'll step in and take the heat, take the big bullets for us so the confidence of the playing group doesn't get knocked."
  
  Players were put through their first conditioning session under the watchful eye of new strength and conditioning coach Adrian Jimenez on Tuesday.
  
  Former Cronulla coach Shane Flanagan is expected to join the club as an assistant in December as the Dragons finalise his contract.
  
  The club also announced on Tuesday chief executive Brian Johnston will depart the role in March.
  
  Johnston informed the board of his intention to step down last month to focus on his family and farm in Dunedoo.
  
  The Dragons board will meet later in November to discuss the process for finding a replacement to Johnston.
  
  Australian Associated Press

https://www.illawarramercury.com.au...-pre-season-after-disappointing-year/?cs=3713

This was acceptable previously, especially the poor body language part?

As I have said, the signing of Jiminez, Shepherd and Flannagan (as expected) will create a far harder environment for players who are tending to slacken off because the are "favourites". The added advantage here also is that McGregor is away and I doubt has any real input into the first training block currently underway.

The curiosity for me is how players like Aitken and others respond under this new style. Will they actually improve or will the real 'slim shady, please stand up'?

 

[Old Timer]

Yep it was all a matter of fitness
We just weren’t fit enough to compete last year
The fitter we get the better footballers we will be because you won’t need skill if you have power
All our players need more muscle simple as that really
This preseason will make the toughest preseason yet look like kindergarten little lunch play time
Dragons 2020 war cry ”We got the power”

 

[Crush]

We will be very hard to beat now with this new training regime!
I'm calling it early, 2020 we win the comp!

 

[Old Timer]

To keep us even fitter we will not be standing under the posts in huddles or with our hands on our hips after opposition tries we will be doing push ups and burpees and when they have shots at goal it will be star jumps
No more walking back to the halfway to kick off we will be sprinting.

 

[muzby]

Seeing JDB is claiming to be innocent of all charges would you be happy for them to sign him up for a further 3 years before he gets to court?

You do realise his court case is in a few months, not a few years, yeah?

 

[Old Timer]

You do realise his court case is in a few months, not a few years, yeah?

Yes I do
You do realise that this has been affecting our club for more than an entire season yeah?

 

[muzby]

Yes I do
You do realise that this has been affecting our club for more than an entire season yeah?

So I’m really not sure the point of your question then..

At the moment DeBelin is under contract, and if we terminate it on the grounds you are saying, the club would be in a bit of poo.

How is re-signing him even in the frame of relevance?

 

[Old Timer]

So I’m really not sure the point of your question then..

At the moment DeBelin is under contract, and if we terminate it on the grounds you are saying, the club would be in a bit of poo.

How is re-signing him even in the frame of relevance?

I take it you are referencing 2 posts here
There is no guarantee that we would be in the poo as you put it if we terminate him that is merely conjecture
Re my question about resigning him it was merely asking for your opinion in the matter in light of the stance you currently hold re JDB

 

[muzby]

I take it you are referencing 2 posts here
There is no guarantee that we would be in the poo as you put it if we terminate him that is merely conjecture
Re my question about resigning him it was merely asking for your opinion in the matter in light of the stance you currently hold re JDB

a) it’s not conjecture, it’s basic contract law. With out a conviction or even an admission of guilt, terminating him now would be an open and shut case of unfair dismissal.

If he gets convicted, the club is free to terminate him. But this is where my confusion on your position is. Why do you say we should have kept Addin after he was convicted?

b) My position on Jack remains the same today as it did nearly 12 months ago when this started. Stand him down and let the courts deal with it. This whole situation is shit for both parties and the people surrounding them. The right result here is more important than results on a footy field.

 

[True_Believer]

Because I love getting involved in these discussions, this is my interpretation. Here are a few articles describing the AFB scenario:

https://leagueunlimited.com/news/25483-dragons-stand-down-addin-fonua-blake

https://www.news.com.au/sport/nrl/d...t/news-story/874ec8cb95d66a9c3abf2608b53a5891

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/ad...tter-man-than-his-record-20160504-gom4u5.html

https://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/3180625/dragons-sack-addin-fonua-blake/

So based on this information (which pretty much encompasses all of the information we have on the matter), the series of events appear to be as follows:

1. AFB charged with assault in Jan 2015
2. AFB immediately stood down by Dragons
3. AFB fronts court end of Jan but doesn't plead guilty to the charges until April 2015
4. Dragons sack AFB in June 2015 for contract breaches
5. AFB trains like a first grader for 18 months because he is unsure if the NRL will register him again.
6. AFB cleared to play NRL again at the end of 2016.

The key difference to me with JDB is that he hasn't (and appears won't) plead guilty to the charges - so at this stage the club is standing by him and supporting him. The other difference is that JDB has been forced to stand down from playing - not from actions taken by the club. Other than that, the whole scenario is eerily similar.

I'm not sure why we would be sacking JDB at this point in time. It makes no sense. If we sack him, we would have to pay him out from cap money and more than likely would not be getting any compensation from the NRL. So in reality, we don't benefit financially from sacking him and there is nothing stopping us from going out and recruiting a replacement whether he is here or not. I'd rather retain him for the time being and in the meantime recruit a backup lock (which is all we could do anyway) just in case he doesn't get off. Then, if he is found guilty, take the same course of action we did with AFB - albeit there is a stronger chance that JDB will go to jail. Unsure of the NRLs stance on the cap in this instance.

If we sack him now and he isn't found guilty, not only is the club likely to face court proceedings which will derail the season even further, but we'll have the same bitching about the clubs actions as we have with AFB. Because it would likely be the case that JDB will be signed elsewhere and continue to perform at a representative level.

 

[Old Timer]

a) it’s not conjecture, it’s basic contract law. With out a conviction or even an admission of guilt, terminating him now would be an open and shut case of unfair dismissal.

If he gets convicted, the club is free to terminate him. But this is where my confusion on your position is. Why do you say we should have kept Addin after he was convicted?

b) My position on Jack remains the same today as it did nearly 12 months ago when this started. Stand him down and let the courts deal with it. This whole situation is shit for both parties and the people surrounding them. The right result here is more important than results on a footy field.

Purely conjecture as no one knows exactly what is in his employment contract but suffice to say there would be strict guidelines re behaviour and consequences if breached
I too have remained consistent re JDB and stated that he should have been immediately stood down from all facets of the team and in fact I still hold that position whilst acknowledging the club had options at its disposal to make a commercial decision which would benefit the team.
You seem to have a clear misunderstanding of my position in that the club has options some of which I disagree with but totally understand if exercised.
You don’t have to agree with it to understand it especially on commercial grounds eg retrenchment in some cases are just setting the company books up for a sell off and whilst they are unpalatable especially from a societal point of view however they are commercially understandable.
My stance re AFB is well documented and of course you disagree with some of that. He made a mistake, fessed up, sort help deserved a chance etc etc De Belin is unable to fulfil his contractual arrangements and there was never any clear understanding of when he could.
AFB could have been resolved on compassionate grounds wasn’t, I didn’t agree that it wasn’t but understand commercial reality if that was the issue that drove the outcome.
If it was not commercial reality that drove that outcome and it was based purely on the charges he admitted to I believe the club made an error of judgement and should have been actively involved in his rehabilitation whilst he remained at the club.
De Berlin’s situation IMO is very different to that and of course is clouded by the NRL’s introduction of a new policy which we have fallen foul of.

 

[True_Believer]

Purely conjecture as no one knows exactly what is in his employment contract but suffice to say there would be strict guidelines re behaviour and consequences if breached
I too have remained consistent re JDB and stated that he should have been immediately stood down from all facets of the team and in fact I still hold that position whilst acknowledging the club had options at its disposal to make a commercial decision which would benefit the team.
You seem to have a clear misunderstanding of my position in that the club has options some of which I disagree with but totally understand if exercised.
You don’t have to agree with it to understand it especially on commercial grounds eg retrenchment in some cases are just setting the company books up for a sell off and whilst they are unpalatable especially from a societal point of view however they are commercially understandable.
My stance re AFB is well documented and of course you disagree with some of that. He made a mistake, fessed up, sort help deserved a chance etc etc De Belin is unable to fulfil his contractual arrangements and there was never any clear understanding of when he could.
AFB could have been resolved on compassionate grounds wasn’t, I didn’t agree that it wasn’t but understand commercial reality if that was the issue that drove the outcome.
If it was not commercial reality that drove that outcome and it was based purely on the charges he admitted to I believe the club made an error of judgement and should have been actively involved in his rehabilitation whilst he remained at the club.
De Berlin’s situation IMO is very different to that and of course is clouded by the NRL’s introduction of a new policy which we have fallen foul of.

Actually, based on those links I posted, it appears as though AFB was also unable to fulfill his contractual obligations as he was deregistered from the NRL for 18 months. In my opinion, the decision to terminate his contract looks more like a commercial decision than a pure contractual breach. They've used that as a tool to execute the termination. I'd suggest the 3 month gap between being found guilty and sacking was the club waiting for the NRL to decide what action they were going to take before making a decision.

 

[muzby]

Purely conjecture as no one knows exactly what is in his employment contract but suffice to say there would be strict guidelines re behaviour and consequences if breached

If he’s found not guilty, what behavioural clause has he breached?

You don’t have to agree with it to understand it especially on commercial grounds eg retrenchment in some cases are just setting the company books up for a sell off and whilst they are unpalatable especially from a societal point of view however they are commercially understandable.

I thought you said you ran a business? Surely you’d know that if you retrench someone and then hire someone else to replace them to do the exact same job (eg retrenching Jack but then filing his jersey with a new hire) you’re liable for unfair dismissal..

That’s talking from a pure redundancy point of view, not termination for poor performance or gross misconduct..


So no matter which way you slice it, if we turfed Jack now we’d be facing a severe uphill battle NOT to pay out his full contract.

 

[muzby]

Actually, based on those links I posted, it appears as though AFB was also unable to fulfill his contractual obligations as he was deregistered from the NRL for 18 months. In my opinion, the decision to terminate his contract looks more like a commercial decision than a pure contractual breach. They've used that as a tool to execute the termination. I'd suggest the 3 month gap between being found guilty and sacking was the club waiting for the NRL to decide what action they were going to take before making a decision.

The fact remains the club waited until after the court decision.

 

[True_Believer]

The fact remains the club waited until after the court decision.

Correct - which is why I see the AFB and JDB scenarios as being very similar.

 

[Old Timer]

If he’s found not guilty, what behavioural clause has he breached?


I thought you said you ran a business? Surely you’d know that if you retrench someone and then hire someone else to replace them to do the exact same job (eg retrenching Jack but then filing his jersey with a new hire) you’re liable for unfair dismissal..

That’s talking from a pure redundancy point of view, not termination for poor performance or gross misconduct..


So no matter which way you slice it, if we turfed Jack now we’d be facing a severe uphill battle NOT to pay out his full contract.

Simple clause in a simple contract
If you are unable to fulfil your contractual arrangements due to non work related issues or incidents the company reserves the right to terminate your employment.
Re retrenchment I am purely pointing out the societal v commercial realities ie don’t like it, don’t condone it but understand it.

 

[muzby]

Correct - which is why I see the AFB and JDB scenarios as being very similar.

Oh no doubt, so do I..

The reason I brought up AFB is OT said we should have kept him even after his conviction but is saying we should cut JDB loose now..

I’m just puzzled as to why the difference..