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SJ.

Manu Vatuvei

Coach
Messages
17,218

I actually really disagree with what Shaun is saying here and it annoys me that players can pretty much guarantee that they can say stuff like this and get lavished with support. I think it's dumb, wrong, doesn't make sense and in a way is actually really disrespectful to the fans.

However, there's probably no point me getting into this topic as I am obviously biased and trying to justify my own behaviour lol.
 

sup42

Juniors
Messages
2,465
or wait until they start to show some promise and then send them to the storm in exchange for a bag of beans
Well this is what we are up against.

Our history is horrible.

However McFadden is clearly well ahead of our past scouts in the way he sits down in peoples homes and talks to parents about why their kid should take up a Warriors contract.

Unlike Queensland and NSW, the Warriors development program competes against a much larger sport for talent within its territorial boundaries.

The targeting of Union players who were not proven really started in earnest in McFaddens era as coach. Mcfadden came to us as an under coach in 2012 and started looking at our Union talent and players outside the traditional Auckland catchment. Ngani Laumape was a Palmerston North Union get by McFadden in Cappys early years at the Warriors.

Fortunately Mark Robinson was smart enough, and Cam George, to bring McFadden back and give him the sole focus of finding players that the Australian systems usually take out for from under the NZWARRIORS noses rather than the Warriors narrow Auckland patch.

Mcfadden signed the best of our School boys champions including the new Baby beast Lennox Tuiloma and this signals a watershed for the Warriors, signing the stars of South Island teams.

McFadden headed the new trial concept where the baby Warriors play against the best of the rest from primarily Auckland labelled the Pasifika Aotearoa collective.

Essentially creating a test for the new Warriors pathways versus the kids who missed out.

This year was tough game despite Mcfaddens junior side giving the Aucklands Juniors a hiding on the score board.

You can see where this is coming from and going, the Warriors under McFadden are hunting the players the Storm and others have had free reign to pluck from here because of the past Warriors narrow focus on St Pauls College, De La salle, MAGS, Kelston, etc......

Mcfadden is signing hearty Maori, and rugged Pakeha, Union rejects too. And Mcfadden has signed more baby Aussies than we are used too.

Probably the most important person at the Warriors for their long term success is the pathways manager.

We now have deeper cover from the NSW cup than most sides since Daniel Anderson. This is only the second era since the 2002 squad that could pick a C team of no names and topple the Panthers, Dolphins and Cowboys three games in row.

Whatever is causing the rot with our same old line up, there is depth ready to kick those guys to the curb if they are not up to it anymore, which is why Ï give them little quarter in threads. The future is very exciting for the Warriors if all the moving parts connect, I am prepared to wait. I know we have some of the best juniors in the competition.

The biggest risk I see to the Warriors is that they fire staff and therefore destroy any chance of continuity based off short term results (short term in my life time of this sport is firing people on a year by year judgement) I am heartened Webster has a five year contract, because it will take five years for our best players at this club to be NRL ready.
 
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Messages
17,761
Many problems with online comments, outside of the no repercussions or something you wouldn't say to the persons face.

One is we often deal in absolutes. Some one calls you "Lazy", it may be something you just did or didn't do was "Lazy" in the moment, but we think it applies to all moments and its a judgement on our character or our internal beliefs that we are not Lazy.

Lazy may also be and mean different things to different people with different standards.
My Lazy is different to your Lazy.

SJ has more talent in his little toenail than I ever had or have.
But that is his curse, he got to use it, make a good living doing the thing he loves and the criticism that follows that expectation of his greatness.
 
Messages
788
Aussie clubs showing interest in TMM, he has said he doesn’t want to leave Auckland, but may push his price up
Yea just seen that too. Mention of "informal" chats with other clubs... interesting that, given he's supposed to be off limits till 1-Nov.

But not expected I guess, given how he's going. Cant imagine he's on a huge deal right now (?) but if he continues delivering as the main man for us, he'd absolutely deserve a decent bump.
 

sup42

Juniors
Messages
2,465
Aussie clubs showing interest in TMM, he has said he doesn’t want to leave Auckland, but may push his price up
He loves his pig hunting and fishing down home on the West coast of the Waikato.
Fortunately the Aussie clubs can't offer the simple life of a small settlement like Taharoa.

Piri Weepu did an episode on his fishing show there. Pretty funny, went fishing with Te Maire off the rocks and caught bugger all.

If Martin had of had his way he would have been a key Warriors signing for life. He had to go to Australia to get a decent shot at the NRL. He lived with his Aunt and Uncle in Australia (Taine Tuaupiki(s) parents for a while).

Could see Taine being snapped up by an Aussie club, he is Australian born (from memory) and is largely here because of his more famous cousin.
 

SpaceMonkey

Immortal
Messages
40,338
He loves his pig hunting and fishing down home on the West coast of the Waikato.
Fortunately the Aussie clubs can't offer the simple life of a small settlement like Taharoa.

Piri Weepu did an episode on his fishing show there. Pretty funny, went fishing with Te Maire off the rocks and caught bugger all.

If Martin had of had his way he would have been a key Warriors signing for life. He had to go to Australia to get a decent shot at the NRL. He lived with his Aunt and Uncle in Australia (Taine Tuaupiki(s) parents for a while).

Could see Taine being snapped up by an Aussie club, he is Australian born (from memory) and is largely here because of his more famous cousin.
That’s probably an area the warriors should try to use to lure a few more Aussie signings, particularly those from outside the big cities. We’re never going to compete on the big city lifestyle stuff but NZ kills Aus for hunting and fishing etc.
 
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Messages
788
Could see Taine being snapped up by an Aussie club, he is Australian born (from memory) and is largely here because of his more famous cousin.
As much as I'd hate to lose him, if he gets an offer that gives him a regular shot at first grade, he should take it.

CNK has the fullback spot locked down, is unlikely to make a perm move to the halves while CHT, TMM and Metcalf are around, and wont be retiring any time soon either.

Taine's far too good to be playing Cup and at 24-25 he's fast approaching his prime years too.
 
Messages
10,053
As much as I'd hate to lose him, if he gets an offer that gives him a regular shot at first grade, he should take it.

CNK has the fullback spot locked down, is unlikely to make a perm move to the halves while CHT, TMM and Metcalf are around, and wont be retiring any time soon either.

Taine's far too good to be playing Cup and at 24-25 he's fast approaching his prime years too.
The depth at fullback is absolutely ridiculous at the moment across the clubs. Just a few off the tops of my head

titans - Campbell, Walker, Brimson
Panthers - Edwards, Laurie
Manly - Trbojevic, Koula, Hopoate
Brisbane - Walsh, Sailor
Storm - Papenhuysen, Fa’alogo

list probably goes on, would be 40+ NRL capable fullbacks across all clubs
 

SpaceMonkey

Immortal
Messages
40,338
The depth at fullback is absolutely ridiculous at the moment across the clubs. Just a few off the tops of my head

titans - Campbell, Walker, Brimson
Panthers - Edwards, Laurie
Manly - Trbojevic, Koula, Hopoate
Brisbane - Walsh, Sailor
Storm - Papenhuysen, Fa’alogo

list probably goes on, would be 40+ NRL capable fullbacks across all clubs
I guess it’s a result of fullback having been a prime position for so long- it’s the spot all the elite talents WANT to play in.
Compare that to centre, which is somewhat unfashionable compared to past decades, to the point where one of the best centres in the game (Latrell) thinks he’s above the position and insists he’s a fullback.
 
Messages
10,053
I guess it’s a result of fullback having been a prime position for so long- it’s the spot all the elite talents WANT to play in.
Compare that to centre, which is somewhat unfashionable compared to past decades, to the point where one of the best centres in the game (Latrell) thinks he’s above the position and insists he’s a fullback.
Yep and I hate this whole “fullback money” narrative that gets pushed. NRL360 the other night saying Manlys salary cap would be stuffed paying Tom his money to pay at centre and not at fullback, he can influence the game just as much whatever number is on his back
 

SpaceMonkey

Immortal
Messages
40,338
Yep and I hate this whole “fullback money” narrative that gets pushed. NRL360 the other night saying Manlys salary cap would be stuffed paying Tom his money to pay at centre and not at fullback, he can influence the game just as much whatever number is on his back
Agreed, especially with the way Tom plays, his value from FB isn’t based around footwork on kick returns or some other factor that reallly needs him at the back to shine. Also shows what a champion bloke RTS is with his attitude that he’ll play wherever the Warriors need him to.
 
Messages
788
The depth at fullback is absolutely ridiculous at the moment across the clubs. Just a few off the tops of my head

titans - Campbell, Walker, Brimson
Panthers - Edwards, Laurie
Manly - Trbojevic, Koula, Hopoate
Brisbane - Walsh, Sailor
Storm - Papenhuysen, Fa’alogo

list probably goes on, would be 40+ NRL capable fullbacks across all clubs
No doubt, but I'd back him in over Kennedy at the Sharks or Tracey at the Dogs if he was given a shot.

But yea with all that depth, the market could get crowded for other young fullbacks looking for starting time. Sailor could be on the move soon.
 

sup42

Juniors
Messages
2,465
I guess it’s a result of fullback having been a prime position for so long- it’s the spot all the elite talents WANT to play in.
Compare that to centre, which is somewhat unfashionable compared to past decades, to the point where one of the best centres in the game (Latrell) thinks he’s above the position and insists he’s a fullback.

I agree as well.

The new rules have supplanted the Fullback position as the Apex of the Salary cap.

We are now talking about Prop forward as the top money earner. Not just any Prop mind.

Props with big engines (easier to state than it is to actually find or harder still create due to the dynamic factors between the continuum of mass and endurance`/big fat dudes do not make good marathon runners).

This is why I rate What Mcfadden is doing at the club in terms of recruiting footballers over athletes. Athletic types in Rugby league parlance mean explosive power and speed, guys who are great in the gym and are natural mesomorphs. throw in footwork and balance as optional extras and scouts come running waving cheque books. Which sadly is only half the true meaning of an athlete.
In the Olympic sense, a decathlete is the most athletic human being known to man kind....this is more in keeping with where the money is shifting in Rugby league to super fit Props, who are more decathlete type than the oldschool big line benders and big hitters.

League is a simple game, size matters. Speed matters. Skills matter, but all of that is secondary to endurance (because of the maxim rugby league is a defensive game).

This idea of a fullback being the most valuable in salary cap terms runs against the fundamentals of the sport itself. In a collision sport that designs game plans around tiring the opposition and dominating the middle third, a fullback does no more than others in his contribution of laying down the winning foundations of the model that is Rugby league (I am talking working both sides of the ball, all the attention of the cameras and commentators is on the attacking side and fullbacks are superstars on the ball).

I get why fullbacks became the Rockstars of the sport, Billy Slater happened. Slater was a stand off with wing speed and a side step gave the Melbourne Storm three halves against the rest of the competitions two halves. Lets all give credit where it is due, Craig Bellamy did this. And today we see Reece Walsh having a devastating impact on the game in the same tradition and demanding the sexy money and getting the media spin that goes with being a fullback.

But Reece Walsh would be a waste of talent were it not for the evolution of the block shape, the out the back door play that has the fullback chime in at speed which creates an overlap of numbers. We all know it well, SJ was the pivot for us last year when we ran it, and CNK was the back door man. Incidentally Matt Elliot introduced that play to the Warriors with the help of Andrew Mcfadden. Credit where credit is due.

So we have a collision of two things happening to change ruby league - first the invention of ball players like Slater at the back - second the new block play that makes the fullback the extra man. It is important to see these two changes to the game as separate and not the same.

Let me explain. CNK thrives today, despite not being Slater like, or Reece Walsh like, CNK cannot ball play any where near as well as those two. But the Block shapes invention makes CNK useful and a fullback Warriors fans love. All that said lets not forget that RTS came before Charnze and for the same reasons he was good. Not a ball playing fullback, but a guy that can thrive with the block shape right edge attacking structures.

In relative terms fullbacks do bugger all work compared to say a super forward (like Sam Burgess). I chose him because he is one of the school of modern change merchants that is part of swinging the argument away from fullbacks as your best, Sam Burgess made being a Prop and a loose forward an interchangeable function of a modern team. A revolution in this sport. One that multiple clubs now try to emulate, which is why so many game naming Tuesdays at the Warriors see middle forwards shifted all over the middle third in the search of multi functional prop back row interchange types.

At our own club we see the benefits of this footballer model, in Mitchell Barnett we have a guy who can go from Prop to any position in the back three of the scrum. Jazz Tevanga, the smallest forward we have, yet he can hold his own in the middle third against much bigger blokes, because he is 100% footballer and bugger all 'athlete' about him.
Neither Jazz nor Mitch Barnett are guys the opposition fear in terms of going 'shit he has the ball mark him they are making a move here'.
Excuse the rant but this is a subject that intertwines with my personal sports involvement over the years. Guys like Barnett have nowhere near the athletic power of an AFB yet here we see him rising because of his motor and his drive.

Speaking of drive and motivation, Rugby league is a century behind Olympic sports development in terms of how Rugby league approaches the training of child athletes. In my family we have two Olympians. And my own daughter was on an Olympic pathway in two sports, gymnastics and the pool.

What I learned while trying not to be a Ballet Mom...supporting my kid was that compared to my own childhood in Rugby league, the league coaches do not have a freaking clue about training kids, neither do Union child pathways have anything on Olympic sports. League kids set ups focus on fun. Olympic kids trainers focus on teaching kids winning is the only fun there is.

In Gymnastics for example seven year olds under eastern European coaches in NZ (I am sure Aussie is the same) are being pushed to do fifteen pull ups for a warm up (I am talking about seven year old girls).

In Swimming, 12 year old girls who are on the New Zealand team fast track like my girl are training six days a week, some of those days are two training's a day. You wake your kid up at five am and start carbo and Protien loading them, they hit the pool and thrash out kilometers with coaches pushing them harder to perfect their strokes etc on every lap, then they go to school for the day. You pick em up and give them snacks to calorie load so they can hit the pool again two hours after school. It feels like Child abuse yet when you check in with your kid it is all they know and they want more.

Some practices they swim 400 laps at a pace that would thrash most high-school swim team girls who are not in an Olympic program.

I compare this to my going to Papakura Sea Eagles training twice a week for two hours as a child and have the coach make us do stuff like run and do tackle bags....without ever saying why or what a game plan is.

Now imagine if League kids trained like Olympic child hopefuls do. Yeah well it won't happen until there is the same type of 'for the flag' nationalism and wonder attached to Rugby league that is the Olympic machine. Which is why the sooner the NRL expands into two NZ Franchises and PNG and internationalises that competition the better.

Excuse the rant across multiple spheres but it strikes me that this sport idolizing fullbacks is wayyy off beam from where the units of value should be placed.

One day someone in the NRL will create child training pathways for kids as early as the Olympics start from aged five.

And that club will be unbeatable for years till the rest catch up. Can you imagine a club that has kids training six days a week as a norm like Olympic sports train kids?

That does not happen in a minnow sport. It will not happen in Rugby league until the sport expands. The reason Olympic countries start training four and five year olds in sports like professionals is because of nationalism and what medals mean to national pride. Which is why League wins stuff all at the Halbergs.
 
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SpaceMonkey

Immortal
Messages
40,338
I hope league and rugby never adopt this olympic model. The game should be fun for kids.
That’s kinda the difference. Swimming from pretty early on is something that you’re either doing competitively or you just don’t really bother about beyond keeping fit. At school swimming carnivals it was the kids who were in the local swimming clubs who usually won the events and nobody much minded that.
League is different as it’s a team sport as well as one where players have to physically dominate each other to win. Having kids training to be pros from super young would definitely kill the fun aspect in a way it doesn’t necessarily for swimming.
 

sup42

Juniors
Messages
2,465
I hope league and rugby never adopt this olympic model. The game should be fun for kids.
I get that.
I really do. I have serious questions about how ethical it is on the mental and emotional development of children to train them as adults.
I believe the happy middle ground is in the middle. If you happen to have a kid that is a machine that just wants to go and go (there are a small group of kids that love it) there should be a system for them to thrive in. At the moment there is nothing for special kids to get extra inputs because of the mindset difference between the way coaches of team sports try to have an egalitarian 'treat them all the same' approach versus individual sports where the coach targets gifted individuals deliberately for special treatment.

Take Nathan Cleary as an example of hot housing that I am talking about. By circumstance of birth, he was gifted the genetic profile of an Athlete from his parents. But this not why he is the best player in the game. He is the best because he has had a world class coaches teaching him since he could hold a football. In Rugby league this is an anomaly and so in our sport he was always going to be created to be the greatest player ever (he will be if he can sort his health out). In the Olympic world he would be the norm, a gifted child sent to train under National level coaches as a child, in that world Nathan Cleary would not need two parents who are Rugby code stars to reach his zenith.

A Korero I post on Rubgy league forums and have done for years, in the hope that Parents of halfbacks or stand offs in this country read goes like this:

If your kid is a half, get them kicking long. Above all else, above every other type of training, teach them that field kicking long is a license to print money. Apply the ten thousand hours method in the same way Basketballers grow up with a goal and backboard hanging over the garage.

If you can, expose them to kicking coaches, buddy them up with adults who have a big boot down town and focus on it more than any other skill at half they have. New Zealand has a dearth of halves in any generation at best we have three or four options for the entire country. And of those players, only one in a generation has a long field kick, and almost without fail, that guy, reaches the NRL and plays for the Kiwis, because having a long kick separates you from everyone else in this country as a half.

You can see this playing out right now in the NRL and at our own club. We played an old guy with injuries because he has a long kick. The Broncos do the same and their long kicking old dog is rated one of their most important players. Just imagine if someone had of convinced Te Maire Martins family to get him kicking long in training like Tiger Woods practicing driving off the tee. If Martin was kicking forty twenties he would be on a million dollar salary.
 
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SpaceMonkey

Immortal
Messages
40,338
I was actually musing today about long kicking. Biomechanically there should probably be more forwards or centres with big boots on them- given that the amount of force imparted on the ball is a function of leg speed and weight, and someone with a long, heavy leg is going to be able to kick further if they have sufficient leg speed. But as you touch upon a specific skill like kicking requires a LOT of practice and largely it’s going to be halves that do that, especially in league where outside backs don’t tend to kick.
 

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