Stalled and stagnant Sydney clubs

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

I think fans of

- Balmain
- Wests
- St George
- Illawarra
- Norths
- Souths

Would disagree with you

Those clubs were ill equipped to make the transition to full time professionalism. Their fanbases were too small and administration was poorly run. They were never going to generate the money needed to compete in a national competition where the costs of running a team were far greater than the old NSWRFL days.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Plus crushers
Gold Coast (chargers?)

the arl really should’ve waited another year. After the 97 grand final super league was dead. Then the arl wouldve retained 100 percent of the game and then only allowed back the clubs from super league it wanted.

and we wouldn’t have had Murdoch controlling the game for 20 years. The least the arl could’ve done was cancel the broncos license and admit two brl teams instead

You've got it all wrong. The ARL was broke after 1997 because they exhausted their reserves on court battles. Super League was the superior competition, drawing much bigger attendances and having exclusive control of the game's best players. News Ltd could afford to run another season of Super League as they had the money to recoup their losses. ARL couldn't afford another year of losses. Packer wasn't going to give them any more money and he stabbed them in the back to sign a deal with Super League. The ARL went begging to News Ltd for a reunification and gave them everything they wanted.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

And what year was the deal signed and for how long?

Think if when you bought your Pay-TV service

You do realise that the original Pay-TV proposal in the early 90s was put forward by the PMT consortium of Telstra - Murdoch and Packer

It was the ACCC in 1993 who forced Packer out of PMT

Now ask yourself who todays owns Foxtel - Telstra 50% Murdoch 25% and Packer 25%

Packer held exclusive pay TV rights to rugby league in 1995, 1996 and 1997. It's why Murdoch tried to launch Super League in 1996. ARL took News Ltd to court over it. A judge initially ruled in favour of ARL, preventing the 1996 Super League season from going forward, but it was overturned in time for the 1997 season. It cost the ARL at least $30m in court fees. The ARL weren't getting any money from Packer for the pay TV component of the broadcast rights that he aired on Sports Australia, which was a channel on Optus Vision. Arthurson and Quayle could only rely on gate receipts and advertising for revenue, but this dried up as the average crowd for ARL 1997 was about 9k. Super League was bringing in around 12k fans per game. On top of this, News Ltd made money by selling one Super League game each round to Kerry Packer. So Packer helped Murdoch win the war.

 

[Wb1234]

You've got it all wrong. The ARL was broke after 1997 because they exhausted their reserves on court battles. Super League was the superior competition, drawing much bigger attendances and having exclusive control of the game's best players. News Ltd could afford to run another season of Super League as they had the money to recoup their losses. ARL couldn't afford another year of losses. Packer wasn't going to give them any more money and he stabbed them in the back to sign a deal with Super League. The ARL went begging to News Ltd for a reunification and gave them everything they wanted.

Thanks for that I really needed a good laugh

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

They may disagree but most of those supporters would be wrong. Balmain and Wests were decrepit by that stage. So were Souths. St George weren’t negatively affected by their ‘merger’ with Illawarra. Norths were the ones who got shafted.

As soon as you brought in Brisbane and a few others and attempted a national competition, the future of a lot of Sydney/NSW clubs were always going to be in question - they just didn’t have the financial and corporate base to compete

The irony is the NSWRL were doing it to kill all the other RL competitions in Australia, similar to how Vince McMahon Jr bought up territory after territory to create a national wrestling company so he could put other promoters out of business in the 80s.

I'm convinced the NSWRL did it out of spite because the BRL produced the best players from the late 70s throughout the 80s until its demise in 1987, leading to Queensland dominating State of Origin and making NSWRL look pathetic.

The NSWRL and Sydney media were against the Origin concept and tried to stop it from being held in 1980. They labelled it "stupid" and mocked Queenslanders for wanting it. The dickheads even said it wouldn't work and would die after a couple of years! They saw the old interstate series as a dick measuring contest to prove Sydney and NSW were superior to Brisbane and Queensland. When Queensland began dominating NSW with a squad of players that were mostly based in the BRL with a handful playing in the NSWRL Premiership it made the NSWRL look second rate. It must have sucked knowing that the clubs from the BRL didn't have pokie machine revenue to pay their players or to build new facilities to compete with the NSWRL clubs, yet their players were still better. It would be like Australia losing a cricket match against semi-professionals from Holland or Afghanistan.

NSWRL went on the offensive and raided the shit out of the BRL in the early 80s and pressured the QRL into fielding a team in the NSWRL Premiership. Quayle wanted a Brisbane team in the cockroach competition for the 1987 season, but the QRL said "no" . Quayle labelled Queenslanders as backwards for not wanting to play with cockroaches. In 1987 the QRL changed its mind and applied for a licence because the BRL clubs found themselves in severe financial trouble, caused by them trying to hold onto their players in the face of relentless talent raids by NSWRL clubs who were bankrolled by pokie machine revenue. The problems caused by this eventually killed off Pastoral Brothers Leprechauns (1998), Fortitude Valley Diehards (1995) and Western Suburbs Panthers (2003). Wynnum Manly Seagulls and Redcliffe Dolphins came close to folding in the late 80s. Ipswich Jets almost folded in the mid-90s. Logan City Scorpions were admitted to A grade in 1988 after finishing runners up in C grade in 1987, but the turmoil from this period -- plus a hefty 15 year lease they were forced into signing with the Logan City Council in 1988 to play out of Meakin Park, despite wanting to be based at Cronulla Park -- prevented them from ever reaching their potential and the club died in 2002. Southern Suburbs Magpies have lived mouth to mouth ever since the 1980s. Arthurson and Quayle gave the licence to the Broncos to spite the QRL. It backfired on the two old dickheads when the Broncos became a juggernaut and got in bed with News Ltd during the 90s. Serves the silly old bastards right. Don't ever feel sorry for the Sydney clubs who fell over during the 90s. They got exactly what they deserved for their role in killing the BRL. They were selfish and malicious when they had the power during the 80s, but wanted everyone to take pity on them when the pressure of full time professionalism became too much for some of them.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Thanks for that I really needed a good laugh

Are you really this dumb or are you just a shit troll?

Here's the actual crowd averages for Super League 97 and ARL 97.

ARL 97	9,915 Rugby League Tables / Attendances 1997 Rugby League Tables - NRL Stats & Tables afltables.com
Super League 97	12,347 Rugby League Tables / Attendances 1997 (Super League) Rugby League Tables - NRL Stats & Tables afltables.com

If you do not think Super League had the better players then explain why the 1995 and 1997 State of Origin squads were so weak compared to the ones from 1994 and 1996?

I'll give you a hint. Super League contracted players were prohibited from competing in the 1995 and 1997 series. Allan Langer. Kevin Walters. Steve Walters. Wendell Sailor. Michael Hancock. Laurie Daley. Ricky Stewart. Darren Smith. Ian Roberts. Anthony Mundine. Mark Geyer. And a tonne more who were Origin regulars for Queensland and NSW.

The 1995 World Cup saw the ARL field a weakened team without Super League contracted players. Australia actually lost their opening match against England and struggled to beat them in the final.

If you didn't know that Kerry Packer purchased the rights to air one Super League match each week on Ch9 then you're not much of a fan. If you didn't know Packer got the broadcast rights to the NSWRL Premiership for a bargain when Ch10 fell over in the early 90s, and also got the pay TV rights for nothing at the same time then go read up on history before filling this thread with any more shit.

News Ltd got everything they wanted at the end of 97. Broadcast rights went to Foxtel for a bargain and News Ltd acquired a 50% stake in the game to control it until their exit in 2012. Melbourne Storm were created at the behest of News Ltd in 1998 to boost subscriptions in Melbourne as Optus Vision had AwFuL tied away on C7Sport until 2002.

Chargers were punted at the behest of News Ltd demanding that the Broncos be the sole team from SEQ for the next decade. Chargers made a profit in 1998 and shouldn't have been culled, but were because News Ltd didn't want them. News Ltd didn't want to cover the travel and accommodation expenses of the Reds, so they were given the boot. News Ltd didn't have much of a stake in the Perth media, but did have one in Melbourne.

 

[Wb1234]

Are you really this dumb or are you just a shit troll?

Here's the actual crowd averages for Super League 97 and ARL 97.

ARL 97	9,915 Rugby League Tables / Attendances 1997 Rugby League Tables - NRL Stats & Tables afltables.com
Super League 97	12,347 Rugby League Tables / Attendances 1997 (Super League) Rugby League Tables - NRL Stats & Tables afltables.com

If you do not think Super League had the better players then explain why the 1995 and 1997 State of Origin squads were so weak compared to the ones from 1994 and 1996?

I'll give you a hint. Super League contracted players were prohibited from competing in the 1995 and 1997 series. Allan Langer. Kevin Walters. Steve Walters. Wendell Sailor. Michael Hancock. Laurie Daley. Ricky Stewart. Darren Smith. Ian Roberts. Anthony Mundine. Mark Geyer. And a tonne more who were Origin regulars for Queensland and NSW.

The 1995 World Cup saw the ARL field a weakened team without Super League contracted players. Australia actually lost their opening match against England and struggled to beat them in the final.

If you didn't know that Kerry Packer purchased the rights to air one Super League match each week on Ch9 then you're not much of a fan. If you didn't know Packer got the broadcast rights to the NSWRL Premiership for a bargain when Ch10 fell over in the early 90s, and also got the pay TV rights for nothing at the same time then go read up on history before filling this thread with any more shit.

News Ltd got everything they wanted at the end of 97. Broadcast rights went to Foxtel for a bargain and News Ltd acquired a 50% stake in the game to control it until their exit in 2012. Melbourne Storm were created at the behest of News Ltd in 1998 to boost subscriptions in Melbourne as Optus Vision had AwFuL tied away on C7Sport until 2002.

Chargers were punted at the behest of News Ltd demanding that the Broncos be the sole team from SEQ for the next decade. Chargers made a profit in 1998 and shouldn't have been culled, but were because News Ltd didn't want them. News Ltd didn't want to cover the travel and accommodation expenses of the Reds, so they were given the boot. News Ltd didn't have much of a stake in the Perth media, but did have one in Melbourne.

Yeh bro that’s why the winners of the super league competition has an asterix after it

any wonder why rugby league is growing again ?

because the arl took over control of the game and we have a strong leader from nsw just like Quayle and arko

 

[Perth Red]

Ou

I think fans of

- Balmain
- Wests
- St George
- Illawarra
- Norths
- Souths

Would disagree with you

out of that group its only norths fans who suffered what reds, rams and crushers fans did, the rest still had a club they could go watch.

 

[Wb1234]

Ou

out of that group its only norths fans who suffered what reds, rams and crushers fans did, the rest still had a club they could go watch.

Lmao you literally said you wouldn’t follow hull kr if they merged with fc

the merged clubs alienated much of their existing fan base

there are still issues today 25 years later

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Yeh bro that’s why the winners of the super league competition has an asterix after it

any wonder why rugby league is growing again ?

because the arl took over control of the game and we have a strong leader from nsw just like Quayle and arko

This bloke is Stallion on steroids.

 

[Perth Red]

Lmao you literally said you wouldn’t follow hull kr if they merged with fc

the merged clubs alienated much of their existing fan base

there are still issues today 25 years later

Nope I said I wouldnt support hfc if hkr disappeared. Big difference! I’d hate if they merged but if it was only way both clubs could survive I guess it would eventually grow on me.

 

[SouthsCountry]

Those clubs were ill equipped to make the transition to full time professionalism. Their fanbases were too small and administration was poorly run. They were never going to generate the money needed to compete in a national competition where the costs of running a team were far greater than the old NSWRFL days.

We're all applauding your intelligence Mr Entrepreneur!!!

 

[Pippen94]

The irony is the NSWRL were doing it to kill all the other RL competitions in Australia, similar to how Vince McMahon Jr bought up territory after territory to create a national wrestling company so he could put other promoters out of business in the 80s.

I'm convinced the NSWRL did it out of spite because the BRL produced the best players from the late 70s throughout the 80s until its demise in 1987, leading to Queensland dominating State of Origin and making NSWRL look pathetic.

The NSWRL and Sydney media were against the Origin concept and tried to stop it from being held in 1980. They labelled it "stupid" and mocked Queenslanders for wanting it. The dickheads even said it wouldn't work and would die after a couple of years! They saw the old interstate series as a dick measuring contest to prove Sydney and NSW were superior to Brisbane and Queensland. When Queensland began dominating NSW with a squad of players that were mostly based in the BRL with a handful playing in the NSWRL Premiership it made the NSWRL look second rate. It must have sucked knowing that the clubs from the BRL didn't have pokie machine revenue to pay their players or to build new facilities to compete with the NSWRL clubs, yet their players were still better. It would be like Australia losing a cricket match against semi-professionals from Holland or Afghanistan.

NSWRL went on the offensive and raided the shit out of the BRL in the early 80s and pressured the QRL into fielding a team in the NSWRL Premiership. Quayle wanted a Brisbane team in the cockroach competition for the 1987 season, but the QRL said "no" . Quayle labelled Queenslanders as backwards for not wanting to play with cockroaches. In 1987 the QRL changed its mind and applied for a licence because the BRL clubs found themselves in severe financial trouble, caused by them trying to hold onto their players in the face of relentless talent raids by NSWRL clubs who were bankrolled by pokie machine revenue. The problems caused by this eventually killed off Pastoral Brothers Leprechauns (1998), Fortitude Valley Diehards (1995) and Western Suburbs Panthers (2003). Wynnum Manly Seagulls and Redcliffe Dolphins came close to folding in the late 80s. Ipswich Jets almost folded in the mid-90s. Logan City Scorpions were admitted to A grade in 1988 after finishing runners up in C grade in 1987, but the turmoil from this period -- plus a hefty 15 year lease they were forced into signing with the Logan City Council in 1988 to play out of Meakin Park, despite wanting to be based at Cronulla Park -- prevented them from ever reaching their potential and the club died in 2002. Southern Suburbs Magpies have lived mouth to mouth ever since the 1980s. Arthurson and Quayle gave the licence to the Broncos to spite the QRL. It backfired on the two old dickheads when the Broncos became a juggernaut and got in bed with News Ltd during the 90s. Serves the silly old bastards right. Don't ever feel sorry for the Sydney clubs who fell over during the 90s. They got exactly what they deserved for their role in killing the BRL. They were selfish and malicious when they had the power during the 80s, but wanted everyone to take pity on them when the pressure of full time professionalism became too much for some of them.

McMahon was always going to win because north east was by far the most profitable territory. Likewise Sydney premiership was always going to expand to include Brisbane, Newcastle & Wollongong which each had their own thriving competitions.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

McMahon was always going to win because north east was by far the most profitable territory. Likewise Sydney premiership was always going to expand to include Brisbane, Newcastle & Wollongong which each had their own thriving competitions.

Vince Sr had an agreement with all over promoters to not take over their territories. Vince Jr broke the agreement in the early 80s.

Vince Jr came close to going out of business in the 90s and was looking to offload the WWF to Jerry Jarrett when he faced prison time over the steroids scandal.

The only reason WCW went bust is because Ted Turner lost control of TNT and the new owners hated wrestling. The decision to sell the company was made a year in advance, according to Larry Zbysko.

The NSWRL wouldn't have been in a position to expand if gaming machine laws weren't introduced in 1956 by the NSW government, especially if they were available in Queensland.

Once the NSWRL expanded outside of Sydney it made a mockery of their decision to add Manly Warringah, Cronulla Sutherland, Parramatta Eels, Canterbury Bankstown and Penrith Panthers over the previous 50 years. These clubs limited the growth potential of traditional clubs such as North Sydney, South Sydney, Eastern Suburbs, Western Suburbs, Balmain, St George and Newtown by boxing them into small catchments with changing demographics. The conversion to professionalism was always going to hurt the inner city clubs that had no room to expand. We lost North Sydney, Western Suburbs, Balmain, South Sydney and St George. The merged entities are now jeopardising Canterbury Bankstown and Cronulla Sutherland by having them surrounded and unable to expand. Something will have to give as there's just not enough room for all of these clubs with changing demographics.

 

[siv]

Vince Sr had an agreement with all over promoters to not take over their territories. Vince Jr broke the agreement in the early 80s.

Vince Jr came close to going out of business in the 90s and was looking to offload the WWF to Jerry Jarrett when he faced prison time over the steroids scandal.

The only reason WCW went bust is because Ted Turner lost control of TNT and the new owners hated wrestling. The decision to sell the company was made a year in advance, according to Larry Zbysko.

The NSWRL wouldn't have been in a position to expand if gaming machine laws weren't introduced in 1956 by the NSW government, especially if they were available in Queensland.

Once the NSWRL expanded outside of Sydney it made a mockery of their decision to add Manly Warringah, Cronulla Sutherland, Parramatta Eels, Canterbury Bankstown and Penrith Panthers over the previous 50 years. These clubs limited the growth potential of traditional clubs such as North Sydney, South Sydney, Eastern Suburbs, Western Suburbs, Balmain, St George and Newtown by boxing them into small catchments with changing demographics. The conversion to professionalism was always going to hurt the inner city clubs that had no room to expand. We lost North Sydney, Western Suburbs, Balmain, South Sydney and St George. The merged entities are now jeopardising Canterbury Bankstown and Cronulla Sutherland by having them surrounded and unable to expand. Something will have to give as there's just not enough room for all of these clubs with changing demographics.

The plan was Illawarra and Newcastle only in 1982

 

[flippikat]

Once the NSWRL expanded outside of Sydney it made a mockery of their decision to add Manly Warringah, Cronulla Sutherland, Parramatta Eels, Canterbury Bankstown and Penrith Panthers over the previous 50 years. These clubs limited the growth potential of traditional clubs such as North Sydney, South Sydney, Eastern Suburbs, Western Suburbs, Balmain, St George and Newtown by boxing them into small catchments with changing demographics. The conversion to professionalism was always going to hurt the inner city clubs that had no room to expand. We lost North Sydney, Western Suburbs, Balmain, South Sydney and St George. The merged entities are now jeopardising Canterbury Bankstown and Cronulla Sutherland by having them surrounded and unable to expand. Something will have to give as there's just not enough room for all of these clubs with changing demographics.

Really good point there about how the oldest Sydney clubs were "hemmed in" by later Sydney expansion clubs - especially the 4 that arrived post-WW2.

Good point too that the Sharks & Bulldogs are at a huge risk from being enclaves surrounded by others with little scope for growth - and that's before we get to the void of the North Shore.

The RL map of Sydney is a mess, and is in serious need of restructuring.

 

[Colk]

Vince Sr had an agreement with all over promoters to not take over their territories. Vince Jr broke the agreement in the early 80s.

Vince Jr came close to going out of business in the 90s and was looking to offload the WWF to Jerry Jarrett when he faced prison time over the steroids scandal.

The only reason WCW went bust is because Ted Turner lost control of TNT and the new owners hated wrestling. The decision to sell the company was made a year in advance, according to Larry Zbysko.

The NSWRL wouldn't have been in a position to expand if gaming machine laws weren't introduced in 1956 by the NSW government, especially if they were available in Queensland.

Once the NSWRL expanded outside of Sydney it made a mockery of their decision to add Manly Warringah, Cronulla Sutherland, Parramatta Eels, Canterbury Bankstown and Penrith Panthers over the previous 50 years. These clubs limited the growth potential of traditional clubs such as North Sydney, South Sydney, Eastern Suburbs, Western Suburbs, Balmain, St George and Newtown by boxing them into small catchments with changing demographics. The conversion to professionalism was always going to hurt the inner city clubs that had no room to expand. We lost North Sydney, Western Suburbs, Balmain, South Sydney and St George. The merged entities are now jeopardising Canterbury Bankstown and Cronulla Sutherland by having them surrounded and unable to expand. Something will have to give as there's just not enough room for all of these clubs with changing demographics.

I think I mentioned something similar in another thread. It would have been better in hindsight to follow the AFL’s model for their Melbourne clubs. If we looked at say 8-9 Sydney sides and looked at the centre with the ability to expand outwards you could have had North Sydney, St George, Roosters, Souths, Parramatta, Canterbury, Balmain, Newtown, Western Suburbs

Based on that you could have really structured stadium plan where they play out of two main stadiums

North Sydney, Roosters, Souths, St George, Newtown, Balmain play out of SFS

Canterbury, Parramatta, Western Suburbs play out of a Western Sydney stadium

You could also imagine St George drifting out to Wollongong by playing a few games there and North Sydney encompassing Central Coast

Anyway it is what it is now.

 

[Pippen94]

Vince Sr had an agreement with all over promoters to not take over their territories. Vince Jr broke the agreement in the early 80s.

Vince Jr came close to going out of business in the 90s and was looking to offload the WWF to Jerry Jarrett when he faced prison time over the steroids scandal.

The only reason WCW went bust is because Ted Turner lost control of TNT and the new owners hated wrestling. The decision to sell the company was made a year in advance, according to Larry Zbysko.

The NSWRL wouldn't have been in a position to expand if gaming machine laws weren't introduced in 1956 by the NSW government, especially if they were available in Queensland.

Once the NSWRL expanded outside of Sydney it made a mockery of their decision to add Manly Warringah, Cronulla Sutherland, Parramatta Eels, Canterbury Bankstown and Penrith Panthers over the previous 50 years. These clubs limited the growth potential of traditional clubs such as North Sydney, South Sydney, Eastern Suburbs, Western Suburbs, Balmain, St George and Newtown by boxing them into small catchments with changing demographics. The conversion to professionalism was always going to hurt the inner city clubs that had no room to expand. We lost North Sydney, Western Suburbs, Balmain, South Sydney and St George. The merged entities are now jeopardising Canterbury Bankstown and Cronulla Sutherland by having them surrounded and unable to expand. Something will have to give as there's just not enough room for all of these clubs with changing demographics.

Cable TV killed the territories. One company was always going to go national & alas it was the biggest. WCW would never had existed if ted turner hadn't bought out the failing jcp.

Wollongong was slated for 1967 entry into comp but crl voted it down. They could see the storm coming. Sydney was always going to consume regional nsw then Queensland. Just too big - nothing to do with spite.

Other comments about Sydney competition lack insight into competition, growth & history of Sydney.

 

[Pippen94]

I think I mentioned something similar in another thread. It would have been better in hindsight to follow the AFL’s model for their Melbourne clubs. If we looked at say 8-9 Sydney sides and looked at the centre with the ability to expand outwards you could have had North Sydney, St George, Roosters, Souths, Parramatta, Canterbury, Balmain, Newtown, Western Suburbs

Based on that you could have really structured stadium plan where they play out of two main stadiums

North Sydney, Roosters, Souths, St George, Newtown, Balmain play out of SFS

Canterbury, Parramatta, Western Suburbs play out of a Western Sydney stadium

You could also imagine St George drifting out to Wollongong by playing a few games there and North Sydney encompassing Central Coast

Anyway it is what it is now.

Why?! All teams playing out of the same oval is boring as f**k. Only an idiot would want that.

 

[Colk]

Why?! All teams playing out of the same oval is boring as f**k. Only an idiot would want that.

Yeah let’s all play in small dilapidated stadiums in outer suburbs that nobody other than the home supporters can get to.

It’s called playing at modern stadiums with proper facilities. You know like every other sport does.