Stalled and stagnant Sydney clubs

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Great. Now tell me why afl has 11 Victorian teams & only two each from sa & wa and none from tasmania?!

Bigger, more prominent city will always win out despite whatever mental gymnastics you tell yourself

1. AwFuL has tried to relocate Hawthorn and North Melbourne to Tasmania.

2. West Coast Eagles are easily the biggest club in AwFuL and there is talk of a third Perth-based club.

3. AwFuL clubs aren't dependent on gaming machine revenue because they generate far more money from gate receipts and sponsorship.

4. We're talking about a hypothetical where BRL clubs are funded by gaming machine revenue from 1956 and NSWRL clubs are not.

The only one performing mental gymnastics is you by mentioning AwFuL and conflating its origins with NRL. The NSWRL/VFL comparison just doesn't work as the revenue stream for both were always different. VFL was in financial strife in the 80s, despite generating more revenue from gate receipts as their crowds and memberships were huge. Relocation and licence fees from adding interstate clubs was brought on by broke Melbourne clubs needing the money to survive. It bought Fitzroy a decade but they eventually met their fate. For the NSWRL it was the other way around. Expansion hurt them and made them redundant as their smaller gate receipts and tiny fanbases weren't enough to compete with the Broncos in the 90s.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

To be fair, they artificially prop up all the clubs except the Broncos and sometimes Souths.

A few of the others could probably be profitable/sustainable independently as well if they were forced to be, but they don't have to be because of the NRL's grant system.

If Foxtel and FTA go under then our game will no longer be able to support the current model. My guess is it would shrink the NRL to an 8 or 10 team league.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

All these non Sydney ppl know what's best for city.

How did the introduction of Manly Waringah, Parramatta, Canterbury Bankstown, St George, Cronulla and Penrith work out for Balmain, North Sydney, Western Suburbs, Eastern Suburbs, Newtown and South Sydney?

Eastern Suburbs were lucky to have Politis to keep the money flowing in. Without that they would have folded in the 90s as they had no room to grow. North Sydney had no money, no home and no room to grow because they were wedged in to the North Shore.

South Sydney were a rabble until Crowe came along. St George and Cronulla were stronger.

Western Suburbs were like Fitzroy.

Newtown was punted.

Balmain were also-rans by the time Super League came around.

The moral of the story is boxing clubs into a small area is a recipe for disaster. South Sydney have managed to develop a following in western Sydney since Crowe took control, but they're an exception to the norm. St George were weakened by Cronulla. Now Cronulla is in trouble as they're wedged in by the merged St George Illawarra entity. Canterbury was in a position or strength during the 80s, 90s and 00s, but have fallen away since the Wests Tigers entity boxed them into a small area.

My prediction is Roosters won't grow unless Manly gets punted. The fact they're targeting Central Coast and North Shore proves they need more than Sydney East.

South Sydney could be in trouble when Crowe pulls up stumps.

Tigers could be huge if Canterbury f**k off to Christchurch.

Canterbury are in strife.

Penrith will grow and dominate.

Parramatta is a growing city, so the Eels will be fine.

Cronulla and St George Illawarra are a concern.

 

[mongoose]

To be fair, they artificially prop up all the clubs except the Broncos and sometimes Souths.

A few of the others could probably be profitable/sustainable independently as well if they were forced to be, but they don't have to be because of the NRL's grant system.

To be fair the NRL forces clubs to play at unfriendly time slots for crowds so the clubs deserve the grant as its TV revenue they have generated.
You could argue the Broncos, Souths, Eels should get more money as they bring in bigger audience but it would destabilise the comp if certain clubs got bigger grants.

 

[Pippen94]

1. AwFuL has tried to relocate Hawthorn and North Melbourne to Tasmania.

2. West Coast Eagles are easily the biggest club in AwFuL and there is talk of a third Perth-based club.

3. AwFuL clubs aren't dependent on gaming machine revenue because they generate far more money from gate receipts and sponsorship.

4. We're talking about a hypothetical where BRL clubs are funded by gaming machine revenue from 1956 and NSWRL clubs are not.

The only one performing mental gymnastics is you by mentioning AwFuL and conflating its origins with NRL. The NSWRL/VFL comparison just doesn't work as the revenue stream for both were always different. VFL was in financial strife in the 80s, despite generating more revenue from gate receipts as their crowds and memberships were huge. Relocation and licence fees from adding interstate clubs was brought on by broke Melbourne clubs needing the money to survive. It bought Fitzroy a decade but they eventually met their fate. For the NSWRL it was the other way around. Expansion hurt them and made them redundant as their smaller gate receipts and tiny fanbases weren't enough to compete with the Broncos in the 90s.

Fantasy. Newcastle & Wollongong were the 2nd & 3rd biggest comp's in the sport with cashed up clubs like wests with pokies. Didn't stop Sydney premiership expanding to those places. Sydney was always going to run game.

 

[Pippen94]

How did the introduction of Manly Waringah, Parramatta, Canterbury Bankstown, St George, Cronulla and Penrith work out for Balmain, North Sydney, Western Suburbs, Eastern Suburbs, Newtown and South Sydney?

Eastern Suburbs were lucky to have Politis to keep the money flowing in. Without that they would have folded in the 90s as they had no room to grow. North Sydney had no money, no home and no room to grow because they were wedged in to the North Shore.

South Sydney were a rabble until Crowe came along. St George and Cronulla were stronger.

Western Suburbs were like Fitzroy.

Newtown was punted.

Balmain were also-rans by the time Super League came around.

The moral of the story is boxing clubs into a small area is a recipe for disaster. South Sydney have managed to develop a following in western Sydney since Crowe took control, but they're an exception to the norm. St George were weakened by Cronulla. Now Cronulla is in trouble as they're wedged in by the merged St George Illawarra entity. Canterbury was in a position or strength during the 80s, 90s and 00s, but have fallen away since the Wests Tigers entity boxed them into a small area.

My prediction is Roosters won't grow unless Manly gets punted. The fact they're targeting Central Coast and North Shore proves they need more than Sydney East.

South Sydney could be in trouble when Crowe pulls up stumps.

Tigers could be huge if Canterbury f**k off to Christchurch.

Canterbury are in strife.

Penrith will grow and dominate.

Parramatta is a growing city, so the Eels will be fine.

Cronulla and St George Illawarra are a concern.

Don't have time for detailed response but you have no idea about history.

Nobody thought sport would go nation in 1926, 1931,1947... Sport was just part time for players till 1990's.

Inner city was slum area & working population moved to suburbs in great numbers.

Places like Penrith & Campbell town were seen as outside of Sydney. Sprawl hadn't happened.

Afl system works for them, but most fans agree that teams having own stadium & area & character is preferable. We should aim for EPL not afl.

 

[Iamback]

All these non Sydney ppl know what's best for city.

Yes now you are getting it

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Fantasy. Newcastle & Wollongong were the 2nd & 3rd biggest comp's in the sport with cashed up clubs like wests with pokies. Didn't stop Sydney premiership expanding to those places. Sydney was always going to run game.

Brisbane competition was the second strongest league in the world until 1988. The calibre or player who competed in the BRL was far greater than the regional cockroach competitions. John Barber said the same thing and he was from regional NSW.

Do you remember John Barber?

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Don't have time for detailed response but you have no idea about history.

Nobody thought sport would go nation in 1926, 1931,1947... Sport was just part time for players till 1990's.

Inner city was slum area & working population moved to suburbs in great numbers.

Places like Penrith & Campbell town were seen as outside of Sydney. Sprawl hadn't happened.

Afl system works for them, but most fans agree that teams having own stadium & area & character is preferable. We should aim for EPL not afl.

Everything you said sums up why we shouldn't be using the footprint of the semi-professional NSWRFL from 1967 to form the blueprint of the professional NRL in 2022.

EPL is a promotion and relegation competition. If we emulate that then we will lose quite a few Sydney clubs. Easts Tigers and Wynnum Manly Seagulls would move into the NRL in a promotion and relegation system. Burleigh Bears would probably replace Gold Coast Titans.

The big AwFuL clubs from Melbourne draw over 50k per game. Not 15k like the Sydney clubs you're defending.

I know that the population sprawl back in the day wasn't as great. My point is the reason for adding those teams were sound at the time, but circumstances have made them redundant and counter-intuitive today. The NSWRL needed to revise their model when they decided to expand. The Bradley Report recommended rationalisation of Sydney and Arthurson and Quayle were for it. It didn't say we should have nine teams in Sydney that can barely afford to line the shithouses at Leichhardt with arsewipe.

 

[Pippen94]

Brisbane competition was the second strongest league in the world until 1988. The calibre or player who competed in the BRL was far greater than the regional cockroach competitions. John Barber said the same thing and he was from regional NSW.

Do you remember John Barber?

Haha. Clubs like Newcastle West were super cashed up & couldn't stop Sydney premiership. Blows up ur fantasy

 

[Wb1234]

Nope I said I wouldnt support hfc if hkr disappeared. Big difference! I’d hate if they merged but if it was only way both clubs could survive I guess it would eventually grow on me.McMahon was always going to win because north east was by far the most profitable territory. Likewise Sydney premiership was always going to expand to include Brisbane, Newcastle & Wollongong which each had their own thriving competitions.

tell me you read all of that ? Lol

I think I mentioned something similar in another thread. It would have been better in hindsight to follow the AFL’s model for their Melbourne clubs. If we looked at say 8-9 Sydney sides and looked at the centre with the ability to expand outwards you could have had North Sydney, St George, Roosters, Souths, Parramatta, Canterbury, Balmain, Newtown, Western Suburbs

Based on that you could have really structured stadium plan where they play out of two main stadiums

North Sydney, Roosters, Souths, St George, Newtown, Balmain play out of SFS

Canterbury, Parramatta, Western Suburbs play out of a Western Sydney stadium

You could also imagine St George drifting out to Wollongong by playing a few games there and North Sydney encompassing Central Coast

Anyway it is what it is now.

one of the major reasons rugby league broke away from union in Sydney is clubs and players wanted to play games in their area as opposed to centrally

when vlandys talks about tribalism that’s what he means. Penrith are the perfect example. They are proud to respect that area. Most of the team live there and played in the juniors

I would hate rugby league to try to copy afl. Modern suburban grounds are a far superior solution for the Sydney clubs

 

[Wb1234]

Everything you said sums up why we shouldn't be using the footprint of the semi-professional NSWRFL from 1967 to form the blueprint of the professional NRL in 2022.

EPL is a promotion and relegation competition. If we emulate that then we will lose quite a few Sydney clubs. Easts Tigers and Wynnum Manly Seagulls would move into the NRL in a promotion and relegation system. Burleigh Bears would probably replace Gold Coast Titans.

The big AwFuL clubs from Melbourne draw over 50k per game. Not 15k like the Sydney clubs you're defending.

I know that the population sprawl back in the day wasn't as great. My point is the reason for adding those teams were sound at the time, but circumstances have made them redundant and counter-intuitive today. The NSWRL needed to revise their model when they decided to expand. The Bradley Report recommended rationalisation of Sydney and Arthurson and Quayle were for it. It didn't say we should have nine teams in Sydney that can barely afford to line the shithouses at Leichhardt with arsewipe.

Bro they tried super league it failed miserably. Stop peddling nonsense

 

[Wb1234]

Yeah let’s all play in small dilapidated stadiums in outer suburbs that nobody other than the home supporters can get to.

It’s called playing at modern stadiums with proper facilities. You know like every other sport does.

Ok how many premier league clubs play on grounds that aren’t in their historical area ?

how many nfl teams play in grounds not in their home area ?

 

[The Great Dane]

To be fair the NRL forces clubs to play at unfriendly time slots for crowds so the clubs deserve the grant as its TV revenue they have generated.

The problem is that the NRL can't afford to give the clubs grants the size they get. While the club's get $13mil each the grassroots is woefully underfunded, in fact most other facets of the sport are woefully underfunded.

All that giving the club's grants that cover the salary cap, and then some, has done is incentivise mediocrity amongst them at the expense of the sport's ability to invest in future growth. The grant is at least a third too large, and though it will never happen, lowering it and reinvesting that money into other areas of the sport would completely change it's future prospects.

You could argue the Broncos, Souths, Eels should get more money as they bring in bigger audience but it would destabilise the comp if certain clubs got bigger grants.

Nobody was suggesting that bigger clubs should get a larger grant.

However plenty of sports have variable grant schemes that work to great effect. In those schemes the bigger clubs generally get less because they need less, but it's something that the NRL should explore but never will because of the backlash.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Haha. Clubs like Newcastle West were super cashed up & couldn't stop Sydney premiership. Blows up ur fantasy

How many State and Australian representatives came from the Newcastle Rugby League?

 

[Pippen94]

How many State and Australian representatives came from the Newcastle Rugby League?

Irrelevant. Big money clubs with pokies couldn't stop Sydney premiership expanding. Brl being building block of NRL is pure fantasy.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Bro they tried super league it failed miserably. Stop peddling nonsense

ARL was a failure indeed between 1995 and 1997. Most Origin and Australian representatives signed with Super League as it offered twice as many money. Crowds for Super League were more than 2k larger than ARL in 1997, which shows what the public thought of the Sydney clubs.

News Ltd got everything they wanted in 1998 and more. They gained a 50% stake in the game and effectively sold the broadcast rights to themselves which is what they wanted and needed to make Foxtel relevant in Queensland and New South Wales.

ARL powerhouses Manly and Newcastle became whipping boys in 1998 for the Super League Premiers. Manly ceased to exist in the NRL a couple of years later. Broncos went on to win the 1998 Premiership in a one sided affair against fellow Super League club Canterbury Bankstown.

News Ltd's Melbourne Storm won in 1999 and Broncos did it again in 2000.

ARL clubs such as Wests, Balmain, North Sydney, South Sydney, Illawarra, St George, South Queensland, Gold Coast were punted. Yep. A clear cut victory for the ARL...

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Irrelevant. Big money clubs with pokies couldn't stop Sydney premiership expanding. Brl being building block of NRL is pure fantasy.

Newcastle was a regional city with limited commercial opportunities, hence the low money from sponsorship. Lower population meant lower crowds than NSWRL and BRL, so less money from gate receipts. Brisbane has been the largest commercial sector between Sydney and Singapore for over a hundred years.

Why do you think the Broncos have been the largest and most profitable rugby league club in the world since their creation, even though they didn't have pokies to fall back on for their first few years, whereas Newcastle were on life support and collected three wooden spoons in a row a few years ago?

The fact the Broncos were bigger and more profitable than the Knights in 1988, despite Newcastle having pokies whereas Brisbane did not gain access to them until the mid 1990s, proves your claim is delusional bullshit.

 

[Wb1234]

ARL was a failure indeed between 1995 and 1997. Most Origin and Australian representatives signed with Super League as it offered twice as many money. Crowds for Super League were more than 2k larger than ARL in 1997, which shows what the public thought of the Sydney clubs.

News Ltd got everything they wanted in 1998 and more. They gained a 50% stake in the game and effectively sold the broadcast rights to themselves which is what they wanted and needed to make Foxtel relevant in Queensland and New South Wales.

ARL powerhouses Manly and Newcastle became whipping boys in 1998 for the Super League Premiers. Manly ceased to be exist in the NRL a couple of years later. Broncos went on to win the 1998 Premiership in a one sided affair against fellow Super League club Canterbury Bankstown.

News Ltd's Melbourne Storm won in 1999 and Broncos did it again in 2000.

ARL clubs such as Wests, Balmain, North Sydney, South Sydney, Illawarra, St George, South Queensland, Gold Coast were punted. Yep. A clear cut victory for the ARL...

Buddy the body running the game now is the ARL

 

[Pippen94]

Newcastle was a regional city with limited commercial opportunities, hence the low money from sponsorship. Lower population meant lower crowds than NSWRL and BRL, so less money from gate receipts. Brisbane has been the largest commercial sector between Sydney and Singapore for over a hundred years.

Why do you think the Broncos have been the largest and most profitable rugby league club in the world since their creation, even though they didn't have pokies to fall back on for their first few years, whereas Newcastle were on life support and collected three wooden spoons in a row a few years ago?

The fact the Broncos were bigger and more profitable than the Knights in 1988, despite Newcastle having pokies whereas Brisbane did not gain access to them until the mid 1990s, proves your claim is delusional bullshit.

Checkmate. What ur saying is Brisbane is bigger than Newcastle. Guess which city is even more bigger than Brisbane?!