The 2014/15 Off Season Thread

[Poupou Escobar]

You'll note between you and I, you are the only one to use the word "invaders".

Who cares what it's called? Invasion/colonisation/immigration. That's the way of the world.

As for those Australians descended from English invaders of 200 or so years ago, 'convict' means the same thing as 'slave'. Should they be seeking reparations because they were forcibly displaced from their land? I'm sure they had a spiritual connection.

If you look hard enough everyone has some injustice in their ancestral history. But most of us are encouraged to move on. That's not just the best medicine, it's the only medicine.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

I don't know, who sets policy? You?

FMD that's lame.

What's lame is you ignoring most of that post. As for who sets the policy, elected politicians do in response to the will of the electorate. If the majority of people don't want it then it doesn't happen. The PM doesn't have carte blanche to make up his own rules. From the day he (or she) becomes a politician he/she is desperately trying to appease the majority of the electorate. They are our servants, stooges and scapegoats, nothing more.

 

[Haynzy]

If you think Aboriginal people have been/are treated fairly then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Just get over it guys and move on. :sarcasm:

 

[Bandwagon]

What's lame is you ignoring most of that post. As for who sets the policy, elected politicians do in response to the will of the electorate. If the majority of people don't want it then it doesn't happen. The PM doesn't have carte blanche to make up his own rules. From the day he (or she) becomes a politician he/she is desperately trying to appease the majority of the electorate. They are our servants, stooges and scapegoats, nothing more.

Who sets the agenda, and who plays who?

 

[Bandwagon]

As for me ignoring most of your post Pou, how 'bout you go back to the original post I made to which you seemed to take umbrage.

You felt it appears, acceptable to concentrate on the word European, yet conveniently ignored the crux of the post to argue semantics.


Go figure.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

If you think Aboriginal people have been/are treated fairly then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

They certainly weren't, any more than the convicts were treated fairly. But now we are all equal under the law which is the best we should expect in a democracy.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

As for me ignoring most of your post Pou, how 'bout you go back to the original post I made to which you seemed to take umbrage.

You felt it appears, acceptable to concentrate on the word European, yet conveniently ignored the crux of the post to argue semantics.


Go figure.

My point was that there are large numbers of Australians descended from neither the original owners of the land nor from the original invaders. All of these 'newer' Australians are getting on with their lives with varying levels of success, making a mockery of the way we put the invasion up on a pedestal as some kind of pivotal event controlling all of our lives. The world has moved on and some of us need to stop staring at our shoes obsessing over the past.

 

[Haynzy]

Nah, after the original time spent in the penal colony, the convicts were treated more than fairly.
As for the Aboriginal people...not so much.
We may be equal under the law according to our laws but that's about it.
Aboriginal people certainly aren't treated equally for the most part and their experience is rarely one of equality.

 

[Haynzy]

My point was that there are large numbers of Australians descended from neither the original owners of the land nor from the original invaders. All of these 'newer' Australians are getting on with their lives with varying levels of success, making a mockery of the way we put the invasion up on a pedestal as some kind of pivotal event controlling all of our lives. The world has moved on and some of us need to stop staring at our shoes obsessing over the past.

Easy for you to say.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Nah, after the original time spent in the penal colony, the convicts were treated more than fairly.
As for the Aboriginal people...not so much.
We may be equal under the law according to our laws but that's about it.
Aboriginal people certainly aren't treated equally for the most part and their experience is rarely one of equality.

Well my experience isn't one of equality either. I get treated better than some people and worse than others.

 

[Bandwagon]

My point was that there are large numbers of Australians descended from neither the original owners of the land nor from the original invaders. All of these 'newer' Australians are getting on with their lives with varying levels of success, making a mockery of the way we put the invasion up on a pedestal as some kind of pivotal event controlling all of our lives. The world has moved on and some of us need to stop staring at our shoes obsessing over the past.

None of which addresses what I said, I feel no guilt for a past over which I have had no control.

Nor do I expect it from anyone else.

I do however acknowledge white rule hasn't been all that kind to indigenous folks, and shifting the blame onto them for that is some what ridiculous.

Further, to claim that equal treatment under the law some how eradicates years of disadvantage and easily translates to equality shows a complete lack of any real understanding of the concept of equality.

 

[Haynzy]

Well my experience isn't one of equality either. I get treated better than some people and worse than others.

Check out the scarecrow.

 

[Barry O'Speedwagon]

Vale, Sir Terry Pratchett, by the way. A good bloke and an occasionally amusing author.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Further, to claim that equal treatment under the law some how eradicates years of disadvantage and easily translates to equality shows a complete lack of any real understanding of the concept of equality.

You're still missing the point. Equality under the law is the only contribution the state can make toward enforcing equality. After that, how 'equal' we are to each other is up to individuals. For example, I'm sure the indigenous members of our NRL squad wouldn't want to swap their lives for yours or mine or even with most (all?) white NRL players. At the other end of the social spectrum, I'm not sure an aboriginal in prison would want to swap his life for a white prisoner in the same gaol. However there's a good chance he wishes he had what Greg Inglis has. There's your inequality right there. Nobody is equal, so what right does the state have wasting resources trying to enforce it?

 

[Gronk]

You're still missing the point. Equality under the law is the only contribution the state can make toward enforcing equality. After that, how 'equal' we are to each other is up to individuals. For example, I'm sure the indigenous members of our NRL squad wouldn't want to swap their lives for yours or mine or even with most (all?) white NRL players. At the other end of the social spectrum, I'm not sure an aboriginal in prison would want to swap his life for a white prisoner in the same gaol. However there's a good chance he wishes he had what Greg Inglis has. There's your inequality right there. Nobody is equal, so what right does the state have wasting resources trying to enforce it?

Yes and they are failing. Aboriginal heath is third world. Mortality rates in infants is 3 times higher than the national average. Indigenous people are twice as likely to be admitted to hospital than non-indigenous. Deaths from chronic disease are three to five times more
common.

Around half of the diseases are caused by infections. Respiratory infections are 10 times more common in the indigenous population. According to the South Australian Cancer Registry, the death rate among the indigenous population is higher because the cancers are typically diagnosed at a later stage.

Leprosy. Yes Leprosy. There are still cases reported in communities.

Mental health: The suicide rate is 3 times higher than the national average.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

You see these things as symptoms of being indigenous. Have you considered they are just symptoms of being poor?

 

[Bandwagon]

You're still missing the point. Equality under the law is the only contribution the state can make toward enforcing equality. After that, how 'equal' we are to each other is up to individuals. For example, I'm sure the indigenous members of our NRL squad wouldn't want to swap their lives for yours or mine or even with most (all?) white NRL players. At the other end of the social spectrum, I'm not sure an aboriginal in prison would want to swap his life for a white prisoner in the same gaol. However there's a good chance he wishes he had what Greg Inglis has. There's your inequality right there. Nobody is equal, so what right does the state have wasting resources trying to enforce it?

Rubbish.

"Law" is continually made to reduce true inequality by treating different people under different circumstances differently.

Which is basically the measure of socially progressive policy. Whilst in theory the law applies to all equally, in practice it does not, because it recognises the advantaged and the disadvantaged.

 

[Gronk]

You see these things as symptoms of being indigenous. Have you considered they are just symptoms of being poor?

Yes they are living in poverty. Way below non-indigenous. Equitable ?

 

[Haynzy]

But poverty is a lifestyle choice!

Harden up merkins.

 

[Twizzle]

It's part of everyone's culture and heritage. That's pretty much the definition of heritage. The question is why is one person's heritage more important than others.

Who said it was ?

No one is trying to take away our culture and heritage, but the indigenous people are slowly losing everything.

My biggest concern with this is that they lose their identity and we move them to where it suits us and force our culture upon them which is happening now.

It will get to the stage where we have no indigenous people to pass on their culture and heritage onto the next generation.