The annual finals system debate thread

[pcpp]

The AFL system or the old NRL system was no good for Rugby League becuase you finish 4th place and you have a decent chance of upsetting 1st and go straight to prelim final. No real incentive other than finishing top 4 and not much of an advantage for the 1st and 2nd placed teams.

In the AFL 4th beat 1st.

I'd say if 1st v 4th was on this week - Eels v Tigers would be a damn good game.

 

[Knight76]

THere is no perfect system. And no matter what system is put up or even adopted by the nrl there will be people who post this or that whinge about it. In my opinion the top5 is by far the fairest of them all. But that dosnt generate enough money for the NRL.

In the end it dosnt matter what system is used. The top teams will keep winning and win the grand final.

 

[Nonny1980]

Any decent finals system must eventually get down to the following formula with 3 weeks to go

a: 3 v 4 - loser eliminated
b: 1 v 2 - winner to GF

c: Winner of (a) v loser of (b)

d: Winner of (b) v winner of (c)

*************************************

This is in fact the old Final 4 system that was in place from the 1950's to the early 1970's.

The Final 5 was merely an extension of this format that rewarded the Minor Premier with a week off in the first round of finals.

The reason for this system's fairness is that it gives the top teams a guaranteed two chances to make the Grand Final.

I remember the first year of the McIntyre 8 system saw teams 1 and 2 - Cronulla and Parramatta win in the first week of the finals. They then went to Week 3 and both lost elimination Preliminary Finals. Great work all season, they lose one match and don't even get to the Grand Final.

The Grand Final is out on its own. If you win every match all year and lose the Grand Final then that's just bad luck. Winning the comp still means performing on the one day of the year. But to potentially win every match bar one and not even make the grand final is not bad luck - it is a criminal flaw in the finals system.

They only Top 8 system that takes this into account is the 5 week one being advocated. If we must have a Top 8 -something I believe we most certainly don't- but if we must have one then the 5 week Final 8 with its combination of the old ARL/current AFL format and the traditional top 4 system is the only way to go.

Cheers.

Couldn't agree more. Well said!

 

[Kris_man]

This system is a joke, for one simple reason: 1 invariably beats 8, 2 invariably beats 2, which means that games 3 v 6 and 4 v 5 are just about pointless. I can't predict the future, but let's face it, it's bloodly unlikely that Cronulla will beat the Saints or that Manly will beat Parra. This means that despite the Tigers sh*tting all over the Cowboys, they will both progress to the second week of the finals. Yeah, I know, the Tigers will get to play the 3rd lowest loser", but that's not nearly enuogh compensation.

All through last night's game, I couldn't get this out of my head. I saw the Tigers players and fans in ecstasy after their win, and couldn't help but think that it's probably going to be all for nothing. Both teams who played that night will more than likely be in the same position come the second week.

There are some counter-arguments to this: "Sometimes teams 7 or 8 do win (such as 2004), meaning that the results of 3 v 6 and 4 v 5 are not irrelevant". Ok sure, you might get the rare win by team 7 or 8, but when do they both win? Even in the rare case that one of them wins, the match 4 v 5 is still pointless.

My preferred finals system (but by no means a perfect one) is the Top 8 that the AFL currently uses. It has these advantages:

- Teams 1-4 can be assured that if they win first week of the finals, they will progress to the third week. McIntyre only assures teams 1 and 2 this opportunity.
- Games are more evenly matched, resulting in greater interest. I don't know about anyone else, but I only have a marginal interest in the Parra v Manly and Saints v Sharks games. They are mismatches. I think it's a waste of a final, which are supposed to be the best games of the year.
- Most importantly of all, each game matters. I don't know how the NRL or anyone else can overlook this simple point. When a higher placed team defeats a lower placed team, yet they both progress (as often happens in the McIntyre system), its a joke. In the AFL system, winning or losing a match always makes a big difference. It means progressing or not progressing. It means being eliminated or not being eliminated.

 

[Kris_man]

PS - I deliberately left out the Top 5 option, because I wanted to see what peoples' preferences were assuming that we're going with a top 8. Personally, I think the Top 5 is flawed (1. it has too many doubled matches, for example, to win the premiership in 1994 Canberra played Norths twice and Bulldogs twice; 2.The minor premiers have to endure two "byes" if they are to win their first final; and 3. The total number of games is just too low). And the NRL won't go back to a 5 team finals series anyway, I think we can be assured of that. But they might consider an alternative top 8.

 

[greenos]

I havn't looked at the AFl finals system past week one. Does anyone know the disadvantages of it?

 

[innsaneink]

Being directly involved for once, I am now seeingpeople points, and yes theyre very valid.
Its a crap unfiar system, particularly week 2.

 

[Kris_man]

I havn't looked at the AFl finals system past week one. Does anyone know the disadvantages of it?

Yep. The main disadvantage is that in terms of opportunity to progress, there's no difference between finishing 1st or 4th. In terms of possibility of elimination, there's no difference between finishing 5th or 8th.

In the Mcintyre system, in theory at least, finishing one place higher always has a slight advantage. My argument is that in practice, those advantages are useless (eg, finishing 3rd is theoretically better than finishing 6th, but in practice it rarely is).

I'd say that that would have been the main reason for the NRL switching to the McIntyre system, however I really think that the advantages of the AFL system far outweigh its disadvantages, and more importantly, it has less disavantages than the mcintyre system.

 

[League Freak™]

Have we ever had a boiring playoff series under the system we use now?


NO.



If its nor broken....dont fix it.

 

[aussies1st]

I haven't seen the AFL system so I voted the McIntyre.

 

[Albinomonkey]

I think the AFL system may have repeated games weeks 1 & 3 in some situations. Despite being a Dragons supporter and seeing my team knocked out from 5th by 1 point last year, I honestly think McIntyre is the best system I've seen for a top 8. Warren Ryan's one is too complicated, especially with his rule of margins determining who is eleminated/gets the bye.

 

[Meanie]

In the Mcintyre system, in theory at least, finishing one place higher always has a slight advantage. My argument is that in practice, those advantages are useless (eg, finishing 3rd is theoretically better than finishing 6th, but in practice it rarely is).

.

Rarely? How often does no 7 seed upset no 2? It's happen 4 times thus far, with team 3 getting a week off 3 of those times.

Plus, to date, the McIntyre system hasn't produced an unfair outcome.

 

[Tommy Smith]

The current system has major flaws.

Ultimately, last nights match will have meant nothing. Only momentum will have come out of it because it may turn out that the Cowboys have the better match up next week.

I remember in 2000 when the 4th placed Raiders beat the 5th placed Panthers. And what was the Raiders reward? A match up with the 2nd placed Roosters at the SFS whereas the Panthers played the 7th placed Eels.

Yeah, great system.

 

[Meanie]

The current system has major flaws.

Ultimately, last nights match will have meant nothing. Only momentum will have come out of it because it may turn out that the Cowboys have the better match up next week.

I remember in 2000 when the 4th placed Raiders beat the 5th placed Panthers. And what was the Raiders reward? A match up with the 2nd placed Roosters at the SFS whereas the Panthers played the 7th placed Eels.

Yeah, great system.

That's why you finish in the top 2. The Raiders could've just as easily gotten a week off had results gone their way, like the 4th placed Panthers did last year.

 

[TinghaExpress]

The McIntyre System is a disgrace. St.George lost by 1 pt in the semi-final last yr against penrith and were knocked out. The cowboys last nite lost by 44 points and will most likely be there next week which is rubbish. The cowwboys dont deserve another chance. The AFL system should be adopted

 

[El Diablo]

Why do people call it the AFL system when we used it first?

 

[knights04]

1989 and 1999 are the last couple of times at least one of the top 2 teams of the regular season didn't play in the Grand Final. I think top 5 needs to come back as the top 8 I feel is just for entertainment value and knocks off deserving teams who win in the 1st/2nd weeks then get knocked out by a team who has had the week off in the 3rd. The top 5 at least only knocks one team a week until the GF. The AFL system should be intruduced and gives a guarantee of two eliminations in the bottom 4 and a real test for the top teams who will otherwise fly to the 3rd week.

 

[Razor]

Neither

A - 1v2
B - 3v4
C - 5v6

Loser C out

Week 2

D - Loser A v Winner B
E - Loser B v Winner C

Loser E out

Week 3

F - Winner A v Winner D
G - Winner E v Loser D

Loser G out

Week 4

H - Loser F v Winner G

Week 5

GF - Winner F v Winner H

Teams 1 and 2 need to win 2 matches to make the Grand Final, and can have 2 losses along the way (if they win the first week, they can only have 1 loss to stay in)

Teams 3 and 4 need to win 3 matches to make the Grand Final, and can have 1 loss along the way (impossible for them to lose just 1 match and not make the Grand Final)

Teams 5 and 6 need to win 4 matches to make the Grand Final, and can't lose a match.

Paths you can take to the Grand Final

1 or 2

WW
WLW
LWW
LWLW
LLWW

3 or 4

WWW
WWLW
WLWW
LWWW

5 or 6

WWWW

 

[aussies1st]

Someone needs to come up with a good idea and send it into the NRL. We may need to start a petition which should hopefully get the system changed.

 

[Albinomonkey]

1 vs 2 in the first week? No thanks, save it for the big game.