The big NRL divide

[Mr Spock!]

Look at the teams struggling....

West Tigers have let superstars go while signing rubbish from other clubs. (Mbye....really....Even Mbye thinks he's shit.)

Cowboys the same....(who the hell gives out 10 year contracts?)

Dragons are sifting through the carcass of the wooden spooners...

Brisbane have put their faith in blokes who don't give a rats like Milford.

Manly have blown their money on a fullback who's perpetually injured.

Bulldogs....signing wingers while still playing 'stars' like Lachlan Lewis and whoever their halfback and hooker is.

 

[franklin2323]

I do like the the youth comp but it's going to need more than that.

Atleast they are looking to fix it.

Most of it seems short term issues like no 2nd tier footy but atleast no head in the sand

 

[Big Pete]

West Tigers have let superstars go while signing rubbish from other clubs. (Mbye....really....Even Mbye thinks he's shit.)

I'm glad you brought the Tigers up because they do represent an inequality in the game.

They didn't get rid of the young players, they tried to build a team around them but it became impossible when other clubs are coming along and throwing big coin at them. So Wests would go through the trouble of blooding them and developing them only for other clubs to enjoy the fruits of their labour.

In the end they received no reward for it and had to rely on scraps. It wasn't like they didn't chase quality players either, the free agents just chose to go to better clubs because being in a good team meant more than being in a struggling one.

Obviously Penrith are the other side of the coin and they're a credit to the competition but they're a real outlier. As well as they're travelling right now, they've had to throw a lot of money just to keep some of their young talent and in certain sections they're getting painted as the villains for holding onto one of their young prospects. While it appears they're doing a good job of managing it, if they continue to bleed players and don't get to enjoy a dynasty it would be a real shame.

 

[Mr Spock!]

I'm glad you brought the Tigers up because they do represent an inequality in the game.

They didn't get rid of the young players, they tried to build a team around them but it became impossible when other clubs are coming along and throwing big coin at them. So Wests would go through the trouble of blooding them and developing them only for other clubs to enjoy the fruits of their labour.

In the end they received no reward for it and had to rely on scraps. It wasn't like they didn't chase quality players either, the free agents just chose to go to better clubs because being in a good team meant more than being in a struggling one.

Obviously Penrith are the other side of the coin and they're a credit to the competition but they're a real outlier. As well as they're travelling right now, they've had to throw a lot of money just to keep some of their young talent and in certain sections they're getting painted as the villains for holding onto one of their young prospects. While it appears they're doing a good job of managing it, if they continue to bleed players and don't get to enjoy a dynasty it would be a real shame.

I find it difficult to believe you couldn't keep Tedesco, JAC, Papenhausen. Instead you still have Russell Packer.

Mate your signings for this year were even more underwhelming than usual.

Old man Tamou, busted Roberts, unwanted by the wooden spooners Ofahangaue, Joey 'Brainsnap' Leilua.

And people wonder why there's a divide.

 

[Big Pete]

I find it difficult to believe you couldn't keep Tedesco, JAC, Papenhausen. Instead you still have Russell Packer.

Mate your signings for this year were even more underwhelming than usual.

Old man Tamou, busted Roberts, unwanted by the wooden spooners Ofahangaue, Joey 'Brainsnap' Leilua.

And people wonder why there's a divide.

Well when things went south with Sheensy the Tigers decided their best course of action was to rebuild the team around Tedesco, Moses, Brooks and Woods. However the rebuilding process was turbulent, the club didn't experience a lot of success so in turn the coach would lose the playing group and they'd have to start again with a brand new vision. Then all the contracts basically came up around the same time, clubs started throwing crazy money and once one left it opened up the floodgates.

I know with Addo-Carr and Papenhuyzen, the Tigers wanted to keep them but Melbourne offered better deals and a better opportunity just by being a successful club. In that case, I'm fine with them losing Addo-Carr since he was a Souths junior they picked up via Cronulla. They gave him a start in first grade but it wasn't like they invested all that time, money and resources into his development. Meanwhile Papenhuyzen was somebody they helped bring through, he was an Australian Schoolboy and right as he's beginning to enter the NRL system Melbourne come knocking.

I take your point about bad signings, but that was after their plan to rebuild backfired. All their star players left the club and the player market was bare. None of the top tier players wanted to go to them, it wasn't like they could just go and sign an Angus Crichton or Latrell Mitchell since they didn't want to go to a struggling club. So they have a coach like Cleary who is brought into deliver instant results and get some pride back into the jersey, he brings in all these players he's worked with in the past on these huge deals and then walks out on them mid-contract because he gets this opportunity to work with his superstar son at a team who showed a ton of potential in 2018.

So they bring in Madge and he has his own vision but has to accept the cards he's been dealt. You're quick to point on some of their bad signings but they've brought in some quality prospects as well in Daine Laurie, Adam Doueihi, Luciano Leilua, Stefano Utoikamanu etc. They've got some good young prospects coming through the grades as well or returning from injury but it's a slow process because of how much talent was raided.

I'm not absolving them of any responsibility or poor decisions along the way. However they tried to play to their strengths and rebuild around a bunch of players they brought through only for the top clubs to come along, throw these big contracts at them and Wests get nothing to show for it.

 

[anjado]

I'm glad you brought the Tigers up because they do represent an inequality in the game.

They didn't get rid of the young players, they tried to build a team around them but it became impossible when other clubs are coming along and throwing big coin at them. So Wests would go through the trouble of blooding them and developing them only for other clubs to enjoy the fruits of their labour.

In the end they received no reward for it and had to rely on scraps. It wasn't like they didn't chase quality players either, the free agents just chose to go to better clubs because being in a good team meant more than being in a struggling one.

Obviously Penrith are the other side of the coin and they're a credit to the competition but they're a real outlier. As well as they're travelling right now, they've had to throw a lot of money just to keep some of their young talent and in certain sections they're getting painted as the villains for holding onto one of their young prospects. While it appears they're doing a good job of managing it, if they continue to bleed players and don't get to enjoy a dynasty it would be a real shame.

The problem is we have two clubs in the NRL which don't have a junior base, Melbourne is understandable due to them expanding to an area with no history of the game. The other team is far less understandable and make no sense as a standalone venture and really add nothing to the competition but it's never brought up and they are endlessly praised in the media despite the fact that if they were forced to merge years ago the game would be a hell of a lot stronger now.

Teams should be compensated for the junior players they bring through with larger salary cap exemptions it will allow teams to bring through players and keep a team together. When they look to expand the game they should look at areas which could be self sustainable one day via junior development.

 

[AnonymousLurker]

I'm glad you brought the Tigers up because they do represent an inequality in the game.

They didn't get rid of the young players, they tried to build a team around them but it became impossible when other clubs are coming along and throwing big coin at them. So Wests would go through the trouble of blooding them and developing them only for other clubs to enjoy the fruits of their labour.

In the end they received no reward for it and had to rely on scraps. It wasn't like they didn't chase quality players either, the free agents just chose to go to better clubs because being in a good team meant more than being in a struggling one.

Obviously Penrith are the other side of the coin and they're a credit to the competition but they're a real outlier. As well as they're travelling right now, they've had to throw a lot of money just to keep some of their young talent and in certain sections they're getting painted as the villains for holding onto one of their young prospects. While it appears they're doing a good job of managing it, if they continue to bleed players and don't get to enjoy a dynasty it would be a real shame.

I think main reason you lost those players was more with the state of the club rather than $$ and I think going forward the tigers have addressed all these issues and patience is now required for infield results .

The club has been a mess for about a decade
- constant infighting with magpies and tigers side
- dud coaches being hired and sacked
- players seemingly having power to get rid of coaches beginning with sheens
- the Farah debacle with Taylor which I think affected playing group loyalty to club (Farah convinced teddy not to go to raiders and then got treated like crap)
- retention identification
- having the four players you want to build the club around off contract at same time
-Cleary and his recruitment choices

I really feel your front office like many struggling clubs was the cause and now that ownership/control of the club is now stable and has a plan with madge i can see them becoming a force in a couple of years

 

[Pete Cash]

i know things are bad at the broncos but big pete leaving them for the tigers is a sad state of affairs

 

[Smug Panther]

I think main reason you lost those players was more with the state of the club rather than $$ and I think going forward the tigers have addressed all these issues and patience is now required for infield results .

The club has been a mess for about a decade
- constant infighting with magpies and tigers side
- dud coaches being hired and sacked
- players seemingly having power to get rid of coaches beginning with sheens
- the Farah debacle with Taylor which I think affected playing group loyalty to club (Farah convinced teddy not to go to raiders and then got treated like crap)
- retention identification
- having the four players you want to build the club around off contract at same time
-Cleary and his recruitment choices

I really feel your front office like many struggling clubs was the cause and now that ownership/control of the club is now stable and has a plan with madge i can see them becoming a force in a couple of years

Pascoe's recruitment choices *

 

[The_Frog]

I'm not absolving them of any responsibility or poor decisions along the way. However they tried to play to their strengths and rebuild around a bunch of players they brought through only for the top clubs to come along, throw these big contracts at them and Wests get nothing to show for it.

This sort of thing used to happen at Panthers a decade ago as well. While most who left didn't kick on, Wade Graham and Michael Jennings certainly did. If Panthers could sort out their issues and build an environment where developed players as well as imported ones wanted to stay, Wests can too. The trouble is there is only one Phil Gould, and he is now committed to the Warriors. There seems no-one else capable of setting up pathways like he has done at the Roosters and Penrith. Wests still seem to be thinking short term, whereas they need to think five to ten years ahead.

 

[mxlegend99]

Ivan had nothing to do with Tigers signing the likes of Doeuhi, Roberts, BJ Leilua etc. As bad as his recruitment was. It's really not much different than before he arrived or after hr left.

Tigers are just a club that cant really attract the genuine NRL superstars and either need to sign blokes hoping they become them, or pay overs to get solid first graders who can quickly become shit and f**k the cap.

The real slap in the face for Tigers is when they do get guys with superstar potential on reasonable deals, those merkins want out to get bigger money at a more successful club. That's what makes success difficult for them.

Hopefully Daine Laurie is not another Aloiai or Matterson. He's good enough and on a low enough contract they can get some success building around him. Just need to stop buying solid guys on huge money when they can probably develop similar quality for far less.

 

[MugaB]

Pascoe's recruitment choices *

I don't think he chooses these suspect signings, but he does sign off on them

 

[Dogs Of War]

that’s the biggie for me, clubs will whinge about the cost but they have of the $3mill grant not being spent on first grade salaries.

NRL
Nrl Reserve grade
Nrl Under 20’s
NRLW

Nrl Premiership comp for ambitious places that can’t get in nrl

state based comps (U18’s U16’s linked to nrl clubs in those states)

of course nswrl and qrl would never allow it though

Well the AFL's state based comps work well. I don't think you need that national level below NRL. At best an under 23's would suffice. Give the talent coming through a stage, but really state based comps actually improve participation and provide local engagement in the community. If a few NRL players have to play at that level to get fitness back, all the better.

Not to mention the costs of flying another 34 players around the country. Best we put that money into other areas of the game.

 

[MugaB]

Well the AFL's state based comps work well. I don't think you need that national level below NRL. At best an under 23's would suffice. Give the talent coming through a stage, but really state based comps actually improve participation and provide local engagement in the community. If a few NRL players have to play at that level to get fitness back, all the better.

Not to mention the costs of flying another 34 players around the country. Best we put that money into other areas of the game.

Why not put into practice the conference system for the under20s/NYC only, that way only have to fly around only half the comps teams, everyone seems to think that having a conference system of sydney based teams in one, and all the interstate team in the other should be the way to go for the NRL, but thats wrong and unfair on clubs who have to travel every fortnight regardless, and the Sydney teams won't as much..
I say do that but only for the NYC, that way, and the NYC sydney teams can play each other without needing to fly anywhere, which can keep costs down, and the ARLC can fly the interstate NYC teams everywhere else, it can work if certain shedules are aligned, and make the NYC competition shorter that way there is less flying around if there is less rounds.

 

[Captain Apollo]

Why not put into practice the conference system for the under20s/NYC only, that way only have to fly around only half the comps teams, everyone seems to think that having a conference system of sydney based teams in one, and all the interstate team in the other should be the way to go for the NRL, but thats wrong and unfair on clubs who have to travel every fortnight regardless, and the Sydney teams won't as much..
I say do that but only for the NYC, that way, and the NYC sydney teams can play each other without needing to fly anywhere, which can keep costs down, and the ARLC can fly the interstate NYC teams everywhere else

The problem though, especially in the short term due to the state of the economy, is cost. Where does the extra money come from to fund the extra transportation and accommodation costs even if it only 50% of the clubs flying around? Its not like the NRL nor the clubs have a big surplus of revenue to draw on.

 

[Captain Apollo]

- having the four players you want to build the club around off contract at same time

That is the result of poor planning by the Tigers management. I mean if you look at many other clubs, how often do they have that many of its key players all come off contract at the same time? Rarely ever.

It does go back to the old Jack Gibson adage that "winning starts in the front office" and the problem is apparent when you look at the teams currently struggling. They either have, or are just starting to get over, problems in their administration.

 

[MugaB]

The problem though, especially in the short term due to the state of the economy, is cost. Where does the extra money come from to fund the extra transportation and accommodation costs even if it only 50% of the clubs flying around? Its not like the NRL nor the clubs have a big surplus of revenue to draw on.

Well it has to be funded and run by the ARLC at a fixed cost per year might have to have all 16 clubs receive a percentage less in the grant to pay for it, hence why i meant only for the interstate teams to get flown around for the bulk of that specific conference. Its almost like a emerging player tax, regardless of the team being in sydney or not, its a good way to ensure that their are youngers players coming thru every clubs development programs, instead what it is now with just a few clubs pumping out the production line, and the rest just poaching of them

 

[MugaB]

Can build the conference for the 7 interstate teams to play each other twice, that's 7 clubs over 12 rounds, which can be spread out over the normal 25 NRL rounds, and get them all travelling with the 1st grade side,can even add 2 possible expansion clubs to it to see its potential and expand to 16 rounds to match the 9 Sydney based teams who'll play each other 16 times within their own comp.

Or keep it 8 vs 8 in each comp, and having Stgeorge as the interstate side, keeping it an even 14 rounds each. Then a NYCSuperbowl. The NYC could also be televised separately for another rival FTA channel, basically this would be the NRLs version of the "U.S college football"

 

[Bazal]

I'm glad you brought the Tigers up because they do represent an inequality in the game.

They didn't get rid of the young players, they tried to build a team around them but it became impossible when other clubs are coming along and throwing big coin at them. So Wests would go through the trouble of blooding them and developing them only for other clubs to enjoy the fruits of their labour.

In the end they received no reward for it and had to rely on scraps. It wasn't like they didn't chase quality players either, the free agents just chose to go to better clubs because being in a good team meant more than being in a struggling one.

Obviously Penrith are the other side of the coin and they're a credit to the competition but they're a real outlier. As well as they're travelling right now, they've had to throw a lot of money just to keep some of their young talent and in certain sections they're getting painted as the villains for holding onto one of their young prospects. While it appears they're doing a good job of managing it, if they continue to bleed players and don't get to enjoy a dynasty it would be a real shame.

Sure but they also signed Packer and Matulino for around 600k ish, and allegedly Josh Reynolds for 800k or more. And Mbye for similar.

How many of those juniors do we reckon they could have kept with that money?

Look at Parra, a former (and let's be honest, probably future) basket case. When we stopped paying overs for Watmoughs and Haynes, and started nabbing Guthersons and Nathan Browns and Shaun Lanes for relatively cheap, we were able to build a side and plenty of those players have developed into guns. It took time but we rebuilt a side that is probably one rung below the genuine premiership threats within a few years.

That's also allowed us to keep "juniors" better than we did previously, although we will always lose them.

At some point the Tigers and other clubs need to stop paying big money for quick fixes and actually build a side. As if JAC and Cotric on the wings is going to make up for the Dogs abysmal spine?

 

[Smug Panther]

Sure but they also signed Packer and Matulino for around 600k ish, and allegedly Josh Reynolds for 800k or more. And Mbye for similar.

How many of those juniors do we reckon they could have kept with that money?

Look at Parra, a former (and let's be honest, probably future) basket case. When we stopped paying overs for Watmoughs and Haynes, and started nabbing Guthersons and Nathan Browns and Shaun Lanes for relatively cheap, we were able to build a side and plenty of those players have developed into guns. It took time but we rebuilt a side that is probably one rung below the genuine premiership threats within a few years.

That's also allowed us to keep "juniors" better than we did previously, although we will always lose them.

At some point the Tigers and other clubs need to stop paying big money for quick fixes and actually build a side. As if JAC and Cotric on the wings is going to make up for the Dogs abysmal spine?

I believe Burton is our most talented junior since Luke Lewis or even Freddy. He will be a star but he'll need some forwards and a hooker