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The Case for Adelaide.....

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14,822
On bids/consortiums etc..., I’m loathed to compare league and AFL but did any of the AFL teams currently in NSW n QLD originally have a consortium and/or bid for a team to the AFL?

My thought, without being an expert or in any way completely informed.. was that all 4 were instigated by the AFL (or VFL in case of the Swans). All 4 are part of a strategic expansion plan - especially the Giants and Suns. Into “Rugby league states”.

And irrespective of the perceived success of these teams.. it’s very apparent the organisation who put them there is committed to them for the long haul.

I honestly believe Adelaide (the Rams) would work, absolutely no doubt. Indeed a huge drawback is no-one is pushing that barrow to the NRL. But I think it’s the NRL who has to take the bull by the horns if it’s going to seriously get out of its “comfort zone” and make the NRL truly National.
There will be expatriates from RL territory in Adelaide to build a supporter base.
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,957
Out of interest, what do you think the criteria should be?
Need to have x amount of start up funds.

Need to have proven interest from sponsors and corporates by having x amount in sponsorship lined up.

Any new clubs need to be able to provably appeal to a market over 1 mil people if in Australia or over 150k if in NZ (i.e. no new suburban or regional clubs).

Need rectangular home ground/s with a seated capacity of at least (e.g.) 25k.

Their brand must be unique to pro-sports in the Australian market, must be neutral, cannot unreasonably clash with another NRL club or representative brands (i.e. no Kangaroos or Bull sharks brands), and must be submitted to the NRL for approval.

Need to commit to providing x amount of money and resources to local grassroots yearly, and to invest in development officers for the local area, etc, etc, other juniors stuff.

I could go on, but you get the general idea.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
69,548
GROD in regards to an Adelaide bid, their is no expansion plan, no call for bids and no desire by the current regime to properly expand the game so why would their be an Adelaide bid/consortium?

expansion is a great example of the difference in management quality between the two codes. Afl planned for expansion many years ago, set aside funds, restructured grants, put in a ticket tax and has controlled where, when, got give support and given the clubs a leg up to have some success on pitch. In contrast every chair that has come in for the last ten years has had a different expansion idea and we’ve ended up with nothing and zero progress towards it. Grant didn’t want expansion, Beattie wanted expansion and was going about it right way by looking at options, Vlandys just decided Brisbane2 regardless of if best long term option.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
69,548
Need to have x amount of start up funds.

Need to have proven interest from sponsors and corporates by having x amount in sponsorship lined up.

Any new clubs need to be able to provably appeal to a market over 1 mil people if in Australia or over 150k if in NZ (i.e. no new suburban or regional clubs).

Need rectangular home ground/s with a seated capacity of at least (e.g.) 25k.

Their brand must be unique to pro-sports in the Australian market, must be neutral, cannot unreasonably clash with another NRL club or representative brands (i.e. no Kangaroos or Bull sharks brands), and must be submitted to the NRL for approval.

Need to commit to providing x amount of money and resources to local grassroots yearly, and to invest in development officers for the local area, etc, etc, other juniors stuff.

I could go on, but you get the general idea.

biggest problem we have is that as a business an nrl club is a very poor roi, that means your only going to get a rich fan or a a LC wanting to own one. Until we either cap club spending or help them become decent profit making businesses getting a consortium to front up $30mill or so for a new license isn’t going to happen.
 
Messages
8,480
GROD in regards to an Adelaide bid, their is no expansion plan, no call for bids and no desire by the current regime to properly expand the game so why would their be an Adelaide bid/consortium?

expansion is a great example of the difference in management quality between the two codes. Afl planned for expansion many years ago, set aside funds, restructured grants, put in a ticket tax and has controlled where, when, got give support and given the clubs a leg up to have some success on pitch. In contrast every chair that has come in for the last ten years has had a different expansion idea and we’ve ended up with nothing and zero progress towards it. Grant didn’t want expansion, Beattie wanted expansion and was going about it right way by looking at options, Vlandys just decided Brisbane2 regardless of if best long term option.

Great point. There’s an inconsistent “message” from the NRL on expansion and as such, indeed - why would Adelaide, Perth, or any other “pioneer region” look to invest money in bidding to an organisation that changes its mind like we change prime ministers..

With Vlandys as chairman i think we’ve got someone who’ll be in the chair for a long time, or at least as long as he wants it. So with this would come the consistency in leadership and direction. However where would that lead expansion?

Not suggesting I completely know. But I don’t think that Adelaide, Perth, or any others are completely off the table. And once a 17th side comes into Brisbane - the cause for an 18th team - which brings an extra match to the round for increased broadcast revenue - will have an extremely strong focus.

Or in other words, Brisbane Mk2 will actually help the cause for expansion into pioneer areas. Repeating myself on previous posts I’ve made here but that’s my firm belief. It still may be many years off.. especially given the carnage of COVID etc .. but that 18th team will happen. Just a matter of where.
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,957
biggest problem we have is that as a business an nrl club is a very poor roi, that means your only going to get a rich fan or a a LC wanting to own one. Until we either cap club spending or help them become decent profit making businesses getting a consortium to front up $30mill or so for a new license isn’t going to happen.
The A-league managed it, and if they can manage it with their comp being an utter joke then surely the NRL can find people willing to invest tens of millions for a license.
 
Messages
14,822
Any new clubs need to be able to provably appeal to a market over 1 mil people if in Australia or over 150k if in NZ (i.e. no new suburban or regional clubs).​

Does "provably appeal to a market over 1 mil people if in Australia" mean its catchment must have 1 million people who may or may not support them or, does it need to prove it has 1 million fans from it?

Would a team in Adelaide or Perth be able to prove it appeals to over 1 million people from its market?

Can any team say it has 1 million fans within its catchment?

A team might represent a market that has 4 million people living in it, but there many only be 15k-30k people there who give a shit about it.

The Broncos are in a market half the size of Melbourne, but the Broncos would have 10 times as many active supporters from its catchment watching on TV.

London Broncos are in one of the largest markets in the world and struggled to get 2k fans through the gate.
 
Messages
14,822
Great point. There’s an inconsistent “message” from the NRL on expansion and as such, indeed - why would Adelaide, Perth, or any other “pioneer region” look to invest money in bidding to an organisation that changes its mind like we change prime ministers..

With Vlandys as chairman i think we’ve got someone who’ll be in the chair for a long time, or at least as long as he wants it. So with this would come the consistency in leadership and direction. However where would that lead expansion?

Not suggesting I completely know. But I don’t think that Adelaide, Perth, or any others are completely off the table. And once a 17th side comes into Brisbane - the cause for an 18th team - which brings an extra match to the round for increased broadcast revenue - will have an extremely strong focus.

Or in other words, Brisbane Mk2 will actually help the cause for expansion into pioneer areas. Repeating myself on previous posts I’ve made here but that’s my firm belief. It still may be many years off.. especially given the carnage of COVID etc .. but that 18th team will happen. Just a matter of where.
Didn't V'landys say there will be no expansion into "rusted on AFL states", hence the reason @Perth Reds hates his guts?
 
Messages
8,480
Didn't V'landys say there will be no expansion into "rusted on AFL states", hence the reason @Perth Reds hates his guts?

Don’t know the exact quote but more like “why waste money in rusted on AFL states” etc... wasting money is the key element. He never said the NRL will never expand into Perth etc.

Investing (not wasting) money strategically in these states is a different story.

There’s been lots of people in the media pushing the Perth barrow, which is great, but no one has definitively put together a strategic and value-add business case to the NRL to back it up. So all the chat without the “substance” could have led to this quote. Remembering he’s only been in the chair for last season.

The NRL firstly (and rightly in my view) needs to bulletproof itself in NSW and QLD as the premier football code, against the invasion it’s facing. By cementing these foundations left rocky by previous administrations, it will generate additional revenue to then consider potential expansion elsewhere.

So - that quote can be read in many different ways but in time, if the business case is strong, Vlandys would be the first one to take his sport into the states held by that of a sport he loathes.
 
Messages
14,822
Adelaide and Perth's best argument for inclusion is TV ratings for big event games. SOO, Tests and GF ratings have improved in Melbourne since the Storm were introduced. It would be fair to expect Adelaide and Perth to get a boost if the Pirates and Rams were introduced.
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,957
Any new clubs need to be able to provably appeal to a market over 1 mil people if in Australia or over 150k if in NZ (i.e. no new suburban or regional clubs).​

Does "provably appeal to a market over 1 mil people if in Australia" mean its catchment must have 1 million people who may or may not support them or, does it need to prove it has 1 million fans from it?

Would a team in Adelaide or Perth be able to prove it appeals to over 1 million people from its market?

Can any team say it has 1 million fans within its catchment?

A team might represent a market that has 4 million people living in it, but there many only be 15k-30k people there who give a shit about it.

The Broncos are in a market half the size of Melbourne, but the Broncos would have 10 times as many active supporters from its catchment watching on TV.

London Broncos are in one of the largest markets in the world and struggled to get 2k fans through the gate.
It's clear what I meant and I refuse to play a semantics games with you.
 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,957
Adelaide and Perth's best argument for inclusion is TV ratings for big event games. SOO, Tests and GF ratings have improved in Melbourne since the Storm were introduced. It would be fair to expect Adelaide and Perth to get a boost if the Pirates and Rams were introduced.
LOL.

While it may be true, 'they'll get bigger ratings for four games a year' is not the best argument for their inclusion. In fact it'd be a terrible argument to lead with.
 
Messages
14,822
Perth Nines a precursor to Perth team? No chance, says V'landys

By Andrew Webster
February 13, 2020 — 3.24pm

The cliched line about ARL Commission chairman Peter V’landys is that he’d rather have a fight than a feed.

He’s likely to have the former before the latter at the Perth Nines on Friday night when he walks into the VIP area, where he will bump into representatives of the Western Australian Rugby League, who he says won't be getting an NRL team in the near future.

Awks.

“We want to dominate the market in Queensland,” V’landys told News Corp late last year. “Forget wasting millions in rusted-on AFL states. We must undertake a full analysis [of growth markets] but Perth does not have a huge league audience. Then there’s the concern around flying NRL players five hours when we already hear criticism of player workloads and how taxing the season is on the stars of the game.”

Those remarks infuriated the good rugby league folk of Perth, especially Perth businessman Peter Cumins, who was on the board of the Western Reds during Super League and also behind the push for the West Coast Pirates.

“The way he dismissed the WA market and his reasons are pathetic,” Cumins said late last year. “Not going to waste money trying to break into a rusted-on AFL state? One of the most successful clubs is the Melbourne Storm and you can’t get more rusted-on than Victoria.

Perth's Optus Stadium won't be hosting a Western Australian NRL team any time soon.

“I was gutted. Parents, volunteers are gutted. What pissed me off even more was we had to read about it in the press.”

V’landys didn’t want to comment further when contacted by this column, but he wasn’t moving away from his inflammatory comments about a Perth franchise not featuring in the next broadcast deal, which starts in 2023.

Would a team in Perth succeed?

The city last year successfully hosted State of Origin II. The crowd of 59,721 was the ground record at Optus Stadium until it was eclipsed by a Bledisloe Cup match months later.

But more than a few influential people at the NRL fear the rebirth of the Nines could be a flop.

A crowd of 12,000 is expected for Friday’s match at HCF Park (which has a capacity of 20,000), with about 15,000 anticipated for Saturday.

At the very least, the tournament is likely to run at a financial loss, with some privately questioning why it wasn’t played in Brisbane or even at the new stadium in Townsville. It is unclear how much the Western Australian government paid for the hosting rights.

The reason why the NRL Nines were outrageously successful in its initial years at Auckland’s Eden Park was that the promoter, Duco Events, did an outstanding job selling the event.

One half of Duco was Dean Lonergan, the Kiwi boxing promoter and former Canberra Raider who manages Jeff Horn and could sell ice to Iceland.

He sold the Nines like a world title fight, ignoring the NRL’s wishes to sign up players as ambassadors while also linking local clubs to NRL powerhouses to ensure the local community was heavily invested.

The music died for the Auckland Nines for a few reasons, but mostly because the Warriors didn’t take the tournament seriously — as well as failing year on year to reach the NRL finals.

After a two-year hiatus, the NRL has taken control and rebirthed the Nines in the west.

I’m yet to catch Nines fever, I must say, although it would be preferable to coronavirus.

Former stars coming out of retirement feels like a gimmick. The fact some clubs are sending lightweight squads makes the tournament feel like an exhibition trot, not something to be taken remotely seriously let alone a pre-cursor to the season ahead. In the first few years, clubs were required to select five of their top 10-contracted players. Now it’s only one from the top six.

How the good people of Perth respond will be interesting, although it is unlikely to convince V’landys to change his mind on snubbing Perth as a potential NRL franchise.

The NRL has a secret team feverishly gathering data on what the game’s “footprint” should look like in years to come.

Its findings are supposed to be handed down later this year, but can the game really justify pouring $10 million a year for the next decade or more into an AFL-obsessed city like Perth?

Hosting Origins and the Nines are one thing — sustaining and propping up an NRL franchise that could take years to take off is another.

The counterargument that the Melbourne Storm have soared since its inception in 1998 doesn’t hold up.

The counterargument to that counterargument is that the Storm dynasty was built by one of the greatest coaches of all-time (Craig Bellamy), greatest players of all-time (Cameron Smith), greatest fullbacks of all-time (Billy Slater), greatest halfbacks of all-time (Cooper Cronk). It also cost News Corp truckloads of cash before it eventually bailed out.

There are already fears about what happens to Melbourne when Bellamy and Smith eventually leave the building, no matter what is left in place.

We're told the broadcasters aren't overly keen on a Perth team, too, because of the extra production costs.

And V’landys has already shown his hand when it comes to expansion, claiming he wants a 17-team competition with a second team in Brisbane, something that should have happened 20 years ago.

Perth can fight for a team all it wants — but it’s a fight the chairman will win.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/pe...-no-chance-says-v-landys-20200213-p540c0.html
 
Messages
14,822
While it may be true, 'they'll get bigger ratings for four games a year' is not the best argument for their inclusion. In fact it'd be a terrible argument to lead with.​

There is no other argument they can come up with. As it's been pointed out before, teams in Adelaide and Perth will cost millions to prop up and regular season games will be confined to 9GEM because they will not draw a decent rating on the main channel.

Crowds won't be great, if the Force, Glory, and Adelaide FC are anything to go by.

Perth might produce a few more players than present, but Adelaide won't.

No one in Adelaide or Perth has the financial resources and desire to support an NRL team the way News Ltd did with Storm.
 
Messages
14,822
It's clear what I meant and I refuse to play a semantics games with you.​

There are teams in markets that have a population of less than 1 million pulling strong sponsorship deals, crowds and TV ratings across the country.

The Cowboys have arguably the largest and most prestigious sponsor of them all, Toyota, and have been with them since 2003. I hear lots of stuff on here about how our game doesn't attract big name sponsors like AwFuL because it's not national enough. Toyota are with AwFuL, Cricket Australia and the Cowboys. NQ as a whole has less than 500k people. Townsville has less than 200k. The Cowboys are the 3rd most watched club in the country.

Newcastle has a population of around 500k and they draw some of the best crowds in the competition, even when they collected their 3rd wooden spoon in a row.

Can anyone on here say that the Storm would average 15k over 3 seasons finishing stone motherless last?
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
69,548
Cowboys sponsor is a local dealership, not the Toyota car company.
Newcastle have a great supporter base but went bust and wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for a wealthy LC taking them over after the nrl had to rescue them.
Who knows with melbourne, I’m sure their 19k avg will drop as does every club that hits bottom. Difference is how many clubs have hit 19k when going good?
Whilst a big population doesn’t always translate into big fan base it certainly doesn’t hurt. One day I hope the warriors can actually capitalise on their big population opportunity to be the third big city club.
Even in Sydney you can’t just divide the cities population equally by 9. Reality is some clubs have a much bigger population reach than others. The three clubs with the smallest population catchments, Cronulla, manly and St’s are unsurprisingly the worse supported despite all having had some successful times.
 
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The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,957
It's clear what I meant and I refuse to play a semantics games with you.​

There are teams in markets that have a population of less than 1 million pulling strong sponsorship deals, crowds and TV ratings across the country.

The Cowboys have arguably the largest and most prestigious sponsor of them all, Toyota, and have been with them since 2003. I hear lots of stuff on here about how our game doesn't attract big name sponsors like AwFuL because it's not national enough. Toyota are with AwFuL, Cricket Australia and the Cowboys. NQ as a whole has less than 500k people. Townsville has less than 200k. The Cowboys are the 3rd most watched club in the country.

Newcastle has a population of around 500k and they draw some of the best crowds in the competition, even when they collected their 3rd wooden spoon in a row.

Can anyone on here say that the Storm would average 15k over 3 seasons finishing stone motherless last?
You need to get you're facts straight; the only regional club to have a sponsorship from a major international company was the Raiders (Huawei) and that was because of geo politics not good business, and all of them, even the Cowboys and Raiders, have been financially unstable at times.

I have nothing against regional clubs, they add flavour and lovable underdogs, but the NRL already has more than enough of them when a quarter of the competition are regional clubs and more than half the others are from one city. If the NRL is going to progress and continue to grow it needs to focus on large metropolitan clubs for the foreseeable future.

I'm not playing these childish games with you anymore, if you want to talk to me then unblock me and come talk to me.
 
Messages
14,822
Cowboys sponsor is a local dealership, not the Toyota car company.
Newcastle have a great supporter base but went bust and wouldn’t be here if it wasn’t for a wealthy LC taking them over after the nrl had to rescue them.
Who knows with melbourne, I’m sure their 19k avg will drop as does every club that hits bottom. Difference is how many clubs have hit 19k when going good?
Whilst a big population doesn’t always translate into big fan base it certainly doesn’t hurt. One day I hope the warriors can actually capitalise on their big population opportunity to be the third big city club.
Even in Sydney you can’t just divide the cities population equally by 9. Reality is some clubs have a much bigger population reach than others. The three clubs with the smallest population catchments, Cronulla, manly and St’s are unsurprisingly the worse supported despite all having had some successful times.
Melbourne's highest ever season average in Melbourne is 16,104.

https://afltables.com/rl/crowds/mrs_vn.html

Cowboys list Toyota as their Principle Partner on their website, and clicking on its logo links to Toyota.com.au

https://www.cowboys.com.au/hospitality1/sponsors/

Toyota acknowledges their sponsorship of the Cowboys on their website.

North Queensland Cowboys & QRL Gold Stars
Since 2003, Toyota has been the Principal Partner of the mighty North Queensland Cowboys, riding the rollercoaster of emotion that this game never fails to deliver. Now in 2020, we are proud to partner with the Queensland Rugby League Gold Stars, who are the region’s first women’s team to enter the QRL competition.

https://www.toyota.com.au/partnerships
 
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