The Case for Adelaide.....

[The Great Dane]

Melbourne's highest ever season average in Melbourne is 16,104.

https://afltables.com/rl/crowds/mrs_vn.html

Cowboys list Toyota as their Principle Partner on their website, and clicking on its logo links to Toyota.com.au

https://www.cowboys.com.au/hospitality1/sponsors/

Toyota acknowledges their sponsorship of the Cowboys on their website.

North Queensland Cowboys & QRL Gold Stars
Since 2003, Toyota has been the Principal Partner of the mighty North Queensland Cowboys, riding the rollercoaster of emotion that this game never fails to deliver. Now in 2020, we are proud to partner with the Queensland Rugby League Gold Stars, who are the region’s first women’s team to enter the QRL competition.

https://www.toyota.com.au/partnerships​

So what!?

Go to the Raiders website and click on the McDonald's logo and it links to the McDonald's Australia website, doesn't change the fact that the Raiders are only sponsored by McDonald's ACT.

 

[Perth Red]

Cowboys Toyota deal is with the NQ Toyota dealers. Nothing wrong with that but don’t try and kid us that it is Toyota main company sponsoring them.
Aami has avg’d 15,16,16,16k for last 4 years making it the 3rd highest consistent avg crowd attendance of any regularly used stadium.

Newcastle are a bit of an anomaly for rl in that they are the second most attended club with a population of 620k ish. The other top two are big populations. The three worse supported clubs are populations of sub 250k. Big populations don’t always guarantee big crowds but they seemingly don’t hurt!

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Cowboys Toyota deal is with the NQ Toyota dealers. Nothing wrong with that but don’t try and kid us that it is Toyota main company sponsoring them.

Did a bit of Googling and found a press release from 2003. It says the sponsorship is community based, like the one Toyota had with the Adelaide Crows.

TOYOTA SPONSORS THE NORTH QUEENSLAND COWBOYS

Toyota Australia and its 14 North Queensland dealers have agreed to become the major commercial partner of the North Queensland Cowboys rugby league team.

The team will be known as the Toyota Cowboys.

The three-year agreement provides the North Queensland team with continuity and encouragement from one of the country’s and the region’s most enthusiastic sponsors.

Toyota’s North Queensland dealers will actively promote the team on a year round basis.

“The sponsorship is community based and is a means of giving support to our customers and to the region,“ Toyota’s northern division senior manager David Stone said.

“This association is an opportunity to give something back to the community in a very dynamic manner.

“The Toyota Cowboys are on the road to success.

“Their performance last year and their determination this year is cause for pride and optimism.”

Toyota already has experience in successful football sponsorship.

Its South Australian dealers were the inaugural supporters of the Adelaide Camry Crows - which went on to win two AFL grand finals.

“We understand that winning is not possible all the time,“ Mr Stone said.

“But it is the spirit of the club and how that positively affects the community which is our principal reason for offering support.

“We regard ourselves already as part of the North Queensland community and this is a way of demonstrating our commitment.”

Toyota’s current national sponsorships and associations include automotive exclusive arrangements with international golf legend Greg Norman and broadcaster John Laws.

It is the principal supporter of the Toyota Country Music Awards - the Golden Guitars - which foster the best talent in country music.

Toyota’s strong environmental stance has also led to it offer substantial support to Planet Ark and its National Tree Day.

The annual Toyota Fraser Island Fishing contest held on the World Heritage- listed Fraser Island has led to the company being congratulated for its management of the delicate site.

“Our sponsorships are all aimed at giving back to our customers and to the community,“ Mr Stone said.

“It is a global policy of Toyota that it must always seek to be a strong corporate citizen.”

https://toyota.pressroom.com.au/press_release_detail.asp?prID=820&clientID=2​

Aami has avg’d 15,16,16,16k for last 4 years making it the 3rd highest consistent avg crowd attendance of any regularly used stadium.

Newcastle are a bit of an anomaly for rl in that they are the second most attended club with a population of 620k ish. The other top two are big populations. The three worse supported clubs are populations of sub 250k. Big populations don’t always guarantee big crowds but they seemingly don’t hurt!

Melbourne's average in its home city is barely above the league's total average of 15,030 in 2019. That's with a team that has an all-tine winning rate of 66%, meaning for every 3 matches it has played they've won 2. Their team has been littered with stars for the last 15 years. Their highest average, 16,104 in 2019, was when they won 20 games and only lost 4, with a winning percentage of 83%. The previous year they drew 16,036 with a winning percentage of 66%, which was slightly above its 2017 average of 16,034 and a winning rate of 83%. It's great they're drawing above average, but with the team it has they are just treading water. The test will be to see if they retain that support when they have a dry spell like every other club.

https://afltables.com/rl/teams/melbourne/melbourne_ss.html

https://afltables.com/rl/crowds/mrs_vn.html

Swans drew 25,847 in 1986 and 21,987 in 1987, which was when they made the finals, but dropped down when they became also rans. In 86 and 87 their home attendances were the 4th best in the league. In 1988 their average attendances at SCG were the 2nd worst in the league, despite winning more games than they lost (12-10). In 89 they were also the 2nd worst, despite winning 50% of their games. In 1990, when they only won 5 games, their attendance average dropped down to 9,275.

https://afltables.com/afl/crowds/1986.html

https://afltables.com/afl/crowds/1987.html

https://afltables.com/afl/crowds/1988.html

https://afltables.com/afl/crowds/1989.html

https://afltables.com/afl/crowds/1990.html

https://afltables.com/afl/crowds/swans.html

https://afltables.com/afl/teams/swans/season.html

 

[mongoose]

The Storm played for nothing in 2010 and still got 14,670.

Cowboys won the comp in 2015 but their average was 16, 230... which is nothing special really

anyone can cherry pick details

 

[The Great Dane]

Newcastle are a bit of an anomaly for rl in that they are the second most attended club with a population of 620k ish. The other top two are big populations.

Not to diminish Newcastle or NQ’s achievements, but neither club has any competition, and it’s easy to be the biggest game in town when you are the only game in town.

So yeah, once you think about it it’s not as anomalous as it seems.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

The Storm played for nothing in 2010 and still got 14,670.

Cowboys won the comp in 2015 but their average was 16, 230... which is nothing special really

anyone can cherry pick details

Storm won quite a few games in 2010. They flogged many teams by a massive score.

Willows was based in the southern outskirts of Townsville. Not in the centre of the city like MRS.

Cowboys have struggled on field throughout the bulk of our existence. In our first year we won 2 games and had twice as many people attend our home games than Melbourne did in their debut season with a very good team.

Melbourne's best ever home average has been eclipsed 14 times by the Cowboys.

https://afltables.com/rl/crowds/north_qld.html

 

[titoelcolombiano]

Need to have x amount of start up funds.

Need to have proven interest from sponsors and corporates by having x amount in sponsorship lined up.

Any new clubs need to be able to provably appeal to a market over 1 mil people if in Australia or over 150k if in NZ (i.e. no new suburban or regional clubs).

Need rectangular home ground/s with a seated capacity of at least (e.g.) 25k.

Their brand must be unique to pro-sports in the Australian market, must be neutral, cannot unreasonably clash with another NRL club or representative brands (i.e. no Kangaroos or Bull sharks brands), and must be submitted to the NRL for approval.

Need to commit to providing x amount of money and resources to local grassroots yearly, and to invest in development officers for the local area, etc, etc, other juniors stuff.

I could go on, but you get the general idea.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts - sounds about right to me.

I guess your thoughts about Redcliffe is that there are question marks about their ability to provably appeal to a market over 1 mil? They tick all the other boxes there if you consider Suncorp their home stadium.

It would probably be difficult for most bids to prove they can appeal to a market of over 1 million people. The market could be there but to prove you can appeal to them is the tricky part in my mind.

 

[Perth Red]

Be interesting to see what Beatties review of expansion review came up with. The WA money men were interviewed for the first time lol. I know Cummins has said he wants co-ownership and is willing to be long term main sponsor with an annual 7 figure deal for cash convertors on jersey. Puddy has said he is willing to invest significantly. Wonder how much is enough to give the NRl a level of security? Tinkler was supposed to have put up $20mill security but didnt do the Knights much good.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts - sounds about right to me.

I guess your thoughts about Redcliffe is that there are question marks about their ability to provably appeal to a market over 1 mil? They tick all the other boxes there if you consider Suncorp their home stadium.

It would probably be difficult for most bids to prove they can appeal to a market of over 1 million people. The market could be there but to prove you can appeal to them is the tricky part in my mind.

It's impossible for any consortium to guarantee that its going to win over a market that has 1 million people.

Placing a neutral brand in a place like Brisbane and trying to appeal to everyone will fail, as they'll be starting with a supporter base of zero and competing against a behemoth at Red Hill that has already filled that niche. The only way Brisbane 2 can succeed is by tapping into an existing brand that has its own fanbase, albeit a small one and is far enough away from the Broncos' HQ to give it a point of difference. Dolphins, Firehawks and Jets can fill that role.

Crushers were doomed to fail as they based themselves at Grange, which is only minutes away from Red Hill.

 

[The Great Dane]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts - sounds about right to me.

I guess your thoughts about Redcliffe is that there are question marks about their ability to provably appeal to a market over 1 mil? They tick all the other boxes there if you consider Suncorp their home stadium.

It would probably be difficult for most bids to prove they can appeal to a market of over 1 million people. The market could be there but to prove you can appeal to them is the tricky part in my mind.

Redcliffe actually fail at least three (for all we know they could fail some of the others as well); they are a suburban club that couldn't provably appeal to a market over 1 mil as they currently exist, they plan to use at least two home stadiums that wouldn't meet the minimum standards, and their brand isn't neutral.

If they wanted to be considered they'd have to change all those things, which would be pretty easy for them to do. Simply create a new brand for the NRL side, scrap any plans to play at Dolphin stadium or Sunshine Coast Stadium, then dot all the I's and cross all the T's on the business side, and hey presto they'd be right in the running.

Also when I say 'prove' I mean within reason, not literally show that you have over a million people willing to support the club. That's pretty easy to do as well, commission some market research by an independent body and then show the finding. The NRL could, and should, commission another independent body to do the same and compare the results, otherwise the results could easily be influenced by bias and intentionally vague and leading questions.

 

[The Great Dane]

It's impossible for any consortium to guarantee that its going to win over a market that has 1 million people.

Placing a neutral brand in a place like Brisbane and trying to appeal to everyone will fail, as they'll be starting with a supporter base of zero and competing against a behemoth at Red Hill that has already filled that niche. The only way Brisbane 2 can succeed is by tapping into an existing brand that has its own fanbase, albeit a small one and is far enough away from the Broncos' HQ to give it a point of difference. Dolphins, Firehawks and Jets can fill that role.

Crushers were doomed to fail as they based themselves at Grange, which is only minutes away from Red Hill.

An existing brand with a tiny fan base that is hated by a large portion of the rest of the club's potential market... What a great way to make absolutely certain that the club is an utter failure.

The Crushers failure had little to nothing to do with their brand or where their HQ and training ground was based, it was because they were a financial basket case and bad timing.
In other words the Crushers concept was a good one, they just didn't have the resources to pull it off and got very unlucky with SL truly kicking off right as they launched.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

An existing brand with a tiny fan base that is hated by a large portion of the rest of the club's potential market... What a great way to make absolutely certain that the club is an utter failure.

The Crushers failure had little to nothing to do with their brand or where their HQ and training ground was based, it was because they were a financial basket case and bad timing.
In other words the Crushers concept was a good one, they just didn't have the resources to pull it off and got very unlucky with SL truly kicking off right as they launched.

The fact the Crushers Leagues Club was based at Grange, just a few minutes away from Red Hill, most certainly would have cost them paying customers. People are creatures of habit and tribal. When they've spent years going to one social club and established friendships with the local tribe, they're not about to give that up for some new tribe that is starting from scratch down the road. Especially during the mid 90s when the Broncos were at their peak.

The 3 BRL clubs closest to Broncos LC all went bust and no longer field teams in the Queensland Cup. Valleys never played in the Queensland Cup, Brothers lasted until 1998 and Wests until 2003. Easts, Wynnum, Redcliffe and to a lesser extent, Norths, are thriving because there's geographic separation between them and Broncos LC. Souths are hidden away in a shit location that's hard to access with little parking.

Redcliffe and Easts have the two strongest bids in the country because they have strong Leagues Clubs and are an icon within their communities. Everyone who has played juniors for their subdistrict clubs will likely adopt them as their main team or second team. People from the districts they represent will view them as their tribe.

Give me the choice of Firehawks, who represent the district I grew up in, or some corporate blow in like the Bombers, and I will jump right in and adopt the Firehawks as my team and willfully sit in the rain on a cold wintery day and watch them win or lose, as I can connect with them on an emotional level. I have no emotional connection with Bombers or Broncos as they don't represent southern Brisbane.

Put the Dolphins and Firehawks in at the same time and RL in Brisbane will have 60,000 to 70,000 people watching NRL games at Lang Park each fortnight.

 

[MugaB]

Not to derail the thread, but i reckon Adelaide should be the next locale as the 18th team, rather than Perth, dont get me wrong WA is a great idea, but so far away, if we lock up club no.17 in QLD, we'll pretty much cover all the heartlands then we can slowly spread west to the cities we haven't got any presence, first place is Adelaide, then Perth, then go north to either NT/PNG or NZ2 within the next 30 years, the population is only getting bigger in both SA & WA, makes sense to start in SA before leaping to WA

 

[mongoose]

Not to derail the thread, but i reckon Adelaide should be the next locale as the 18th team, rather than Perth, dont get me wrong WA is a great idea, but so far away, if we lock up club no.17 in QLD, we'll pretty much cover all the heartlands then we can slowly spread west to the cities we haven't got any presence, first place is Adelaide, then Perth, then go north to either NT/PNG or NZ2 within the next 30 years, the population is only getting bigger in both SA & WA, makes sense to start in SA before leaping to WA

Would be interesting to see if that new Adelaide rectangular stadium alters the NRL's expansion views. Could be an ace up their sleeve if Adelaide are really keen and want to get the jump on Perth....

 

[The Great Dane]

The fact the Crushers Leagues Club was based at Grange, just a few minutes away from Red Hill, most certainly would have cost them paying customers. People are creatures of habit and tribal. When they've spent years going to one social club and established friendships with the local tribe, they're not about to give that up for some new tribe that is starting from scratch down the road. Especially during the mid 90s when the Broncos were at their peak.

We know what sent the Crusher broke, it was the fact they were broke to begin with lol.

Now you can speculate on whether this or that may or may not have effected their downfall to some degree, but the main contributing factors were undeniably their bad finances and the SL war kicking off right as they entered the league.

Redcliffe and Easts have the two strongest bids in the country because they have strong Leagues Clubs and are an icon within their communities. Everyone who has played juniors for their subdistrict clubs will likely adopt them as their main team or second team. People from the districts they represent will view them as their tribe.

Having a "strong" leagues club doesn't mean that you have a strong business plan. Many clubs have had strong leagues clubs and have still failed.

Being 'an icon within your community' doesn't mean much when your community isn't big enough to independently support a club and all the other communities hold a strong disdain for you.

You are delusional if you think that everybody, or even most people, in same juniors district will support the local NRL team. That doesn't happen anywhere and it won't happen in Brisbane either.

Give me the choice of Firehawks, who represent the district I grew up in, or some corporate blow in like the Bombers, and I will jump right in and adopt the Firehawks as my team and willfully sit in the rain on a cold wintery day and watch them win or lose, as I can connect with them on an emotional level. I have no emotional connection with Bombers or Broncos as they don't represent southern Brisbane.

Good for you, now stop projecting your attitude onto everybody else and look into what has happened when other clubs and sports have attempted the same model you are promoting!

I'll give you a hint, it doesn't work how you think it will work and you are in the minority of people whom would support club.

Put the Dolphins and Firehawks in at the same time and RL in Brisbane will have 60,000 to 70,000 people watching NRL games at Lang Park each fortnight.

You're probably right on this one.

If you added the Dolphins and Firehawks alongside the Broncos eventually you would end up with about 60ish thousand active supporters in Brisbane, however they wouldn't be split evenly between clubs so you'd end up with the Broncos being the big club in town with roughly 30k supporters, and the other two being small suburban clubs with roughly 15k each that struggle to support themselves.

Meanwhile if you added a single club with wide appeal, i.e. created the City to the Broncos United, then eventually you'd end up with roughly the same 60k active supporters, but the split would be more even and you'd have two strong clubs instead of one strong club and two weak ones that can't compete and are liable to go broke at the drop of a hat. In other words you'd be a whole lot better off.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Not to derail the thread, but i reckon Adelaide should be the next locale as the 18th team, rather than Perth, dont get me wrong WA is a great idea, but so far away, if we lock up club no.17 in QLD, we'll pretty much cover all the heartlands then we can slowly spread west to the cities we haven't got any presence, first place is Adelaide, then Perth, then go north to either NT/PNG or NZ2 within the next 30 years, the population is only getting bigger in both SA & WA, makes sense to start in SA before leaping to WA

@Perth Red will be seething when he reads this.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

We know what sent the Crusher broke, it was the fact they were broke to begin with lol.

Now you can speculate on whether this or that may or may not have effected their downfall to some degree, but the main contributing factors were undeniably their bad finances and the SL war kicking off right as they entered the league.

A strong Leagues Club, well away from Red Hill, such as south-eastern Brisbane, would have given the Crushers a steady income stream. They needed this as they didn't have support from the big end of town. News Ltd owned the Broncos and ran the only newspaper company in Brisbane, during a time when there was no alternative medium, such as the internet. Major companies knew this and as such, it limited the Crushers' market appeal.

Broncos had the city covered, as they were based in the north-west but played in the south-east.

Having a "strong" leagues club doesn't mean that you have a strong business plan. Many clubs have had strong leagues clubs and have still failed.

It's been reported that the Dolphins would be stronger tham most NRL clubs if they were added tomorrow, due to them being asset rich and running one of the most successful Leagues Clubs in the country.

There is no professional sports club in Moreton Bay, so they would easily dominate that market. It has over 400k people and growing rapidly.

Being 'an icon within your community' doesn't mean much when your community isn't big enough to independently support a club and all the other communities hold a strong disdain for you.

What evidence do you have that the Dolphins' catchment cannot sustain an NRL club?

I'll say it again, it's been reported that the Dolphins would be one of the richest and strongest clubs in the NRL if they were admitted tomorrow.

You are delusional if you think that everybody, or even most people, in same juniors district will support the local NRL team. That doesn't happen anywhere and it won't happen in Brisbane either.

They don't need everyone to support them. They just need to get 20k-30k people to buy into their brand. When you factor in how many people have played within the Eastern Suburbs Tigers District for one of their subdistrict clubs since the 50s, there would be at least 100k people who've either played for one of their junior clubs or had sons, brothers, uncles and grandparents who have. Probably more. These people have an emotional connection to the club due to watching their family members represent them. RL and sport in general is tribal. People who can identify with a club because they spent many years of their lives playing for one of its teams or watched a relative do so is something that a neutral brand will never have.

Good for you, now stop projecting your attitude onto everybody else and look into what has happened when other clubs and sports have attempted the same model you are promoting!

I'll give you a hint, it doesn't work how you think it will work and you are in the minority of people whom would support club.

There have probably been just as many, if not more, neutral branded pro sports clubs go bankrupt in Australia over the last 40 years. The NBL has seen many neutral branded clubs enter the fray and fold as quickly as the SQ Crushers.

List of neutral branded NBL clubs that are now defunct.

Bankstown Bruins/West Sydney Westars
Canberra Cannons
City of Sydney Astronauts/Sydney Supersonics
Gold Coast Blaze
Gold Coast Cougars/Rollers
Devonport Warriors
Hobart Devils
Hunter Pirates
Launceston Casino City
Melbourne Tigers (changed their name, pissing off many supporters)
Newcastle Falcons
Singapore Slingers (withdrew from NBL due to travelling expenses, just like the Western Reds)
South Dragons
South East Melbourne Magic
St Kilda Saints/Westside Saints/Southern Melbourne Saints
Townsville Suns/Crocodiles
Victoria Titans/Giants
West Sydney Razorbacks


Only a few defunct NBL clubs played in a lower division before entering the national competition.

Coburg Giants/North Melbourne Giants
Frankston Bears
Geelong Cats/Geelong Supercats
Glenelg Tigers
Nunawading Spectres/Eastside Spectres
West Adelaide Bearcats
West Torrens Eagles/Forestville Eagles

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defunct_National_Basketball_League_(Australia)_teams

Defunct Neutral Brands = 19
Defunct Suburban Brands Admitted From Lower Division = 7

The Brisbane Roar soccer club isn't a neutral brand. It is an extention of the Brisbane Lions FC that was created by Dutch migrants in Richlands. They were awarded the A-League licence ahead of the Strikers. Their crowds are far greater than anything the Strikers ever drew.

GC United FC originally played in 1959 and disbanded in 1979. It was revived in 2008 by the A-League and kicked out after a falling out between Clive Palmer and the A-League.

North Queensland Fury FC were created from scratch. They failed.

NZ Knights were a re-branded Football Kingz and were a neutral brand created in 1999 to compete in the NSL. They only lasted 3 seasons.

In the top flight of Australian RL I have seen 5 neutral branded clubs go bust since 1988.

Adelaide Rams
Gold Coast-Tweed Giants / Gold Coast Seagulls / Gold Coast Gladiators / Gold Coast Chargers
Hunter Mariners
Illawarra Steelers
South Queensland Crushers
Western Reds / Perth Reds

Only the North Sydney Bears have been discarded from the top flight. Clubs like Balmain, Wests Magpies and St George live on in the form of mergers, with the Dragons basically taking over the Illawarra Steelers. Souths were kicked out but are alive and well after being readmitted.

 

[Perth Red]

Would be interesting to see if that new Adelaide rectangular stadium alters the NRL's expansion views. Could be an ace up their sleeve if Adelaide are really keen and want to get the jump on Perth....

Depends if you want to go where the game is much stronger at grass roots and Jnr development, has a bigger population. greater chance of corporate support and multi millionaires ready to get on board, or not? Reality is NRL under Vlandys has no interest in Perth or Adelaide, stadiums or no stadiums.

 

[MugaB]

Depends if you want to go where the game is much stronger at grass roots and Jnr development, has a bigger population. greater chance of corporate support and multi millionaires ready to get on board, or not? Reality is NRL under Vlandys has no interest in Perth or Adelaide, stadiums or no stadiums.

Says Perth Red,..
V'landy's said no point wasting money, on rusted on AFL states, you can still bid and not waste money and still get a licence, and still play.. V'landy's probably would never have accepted a Melbourne team if we never had the Storm, but having a successful team deep in AFL centric city must make him wet most days, im sure that they have a GOLDEN EAGLE type plan to invade both Adelaide and Perth, but not until brisbane2 starts making money, im not sure we can afford to justify expansion out west without QLD being strong, at the moment its pretty piss weak, only the Titans are gaining any momentum, cowboys are stagnant, and bronx are backwards ass spooners, maroons however we gifted a series, those ref calls at the buzzer were atrocious, still blues should have done better.
And i reckon NRL are doing bucketloads better at the moment with Abdo and Vdog than the past 2 decades of garbage admin.

 

[Perth Red]

Its shame we don't have any decent journos who have asked him by now to clarify his statement so we know what he meant. On the surface he said what he said which is pretty clear he doesn't see the game expanding into Adelaide or Perth.