The Case for Adelaide.....

[Bring back John Fifita]

Adelaide Dragons.

Ohhhhh dear..

The internal conflict with this is strong within me...

 

[MugaB]

Ohhhhh dear..

The internal conflict with this is strong within me...

Adelaide Saints, white with a red V, playing in the city of churches

 

[Bring back John Fifita]

Adelaide Saints, white with a red V, playing in the city of churches

i know... I know...

it makes perfect sense... but...

 

[MugaB]

i know... I know...

it makes perfect sense... but...

I forgot add a tinge of gold for their halo

 

[Bring back John Fifita]

View attachment 44548
I forgot add a tinge of gold for their halo

Happy to admit I laughed aloud seeing that.

A perfect emblem for the Adelaide Saints..

 

[The Great Dane]

A strong Leagues Club, well away from Red Hill, such as south-eastern Brisbane, would have given the Crushers a steady income stream. They needed this as they didn't have support from the big end of town. News Ltd owned the Broncos and ran the only newspaper company in Brisbane, during a time when there was no alternative medium, such as the internet. Major companies knew this and as such, it limited the Crushers' market appeal.

Most of this is just horse shit, and honestly it's a waste of everybody's time going through it in detail, so I'm gonna cut the crap down.

I mean you are simply trying to deny reality when it comes to the Crushers. None of your examples are like for like either, for example trying to compare the NBL and A-league clubs to the NRL given their differences in financial circumstances is just ridiculous in this context. It's like saying McDonald's and the local burger chain are both fastfood franchises therefor they are the same and will have same outcomes, which simply isn't the case. A bunch more of your examples are just flat out wrong as well, the Seagulls for example.

It's been reported that the Dolphins would be stronger tham most NRL clubs if they were added tomorrow, due to them being asset rich and running one of the most successful Leagues Clubs in the country.

A strong leagues club doesn't equal a strong football club. Many a club with strong leagues clubs have struggled and/or folded over the years, the Seagulls for example.

Also just because you have $100mil (or whatever it is they are claiming in the media) in assets doesn't mean you are willing to risk them to support the football club. $100 also isn't as much it sounds like in real terms, but that is a whole other discussion.

There is no professional sports club in Moreton Bay, so they would easily dominate that market. It has over 400k people and growing rapidly.

The Dolphins don't represent all of Morton Bay.

No matter how many times you try to roll that turd in glitter it isn't going to change that fact, and the fact the people from other parts of Morton Bay have spent their whole lives playing against and hating the Dolphins.

The NRL doesn't need anymore small suburban or regional clubs either, in fact it's already got to many. So bragging about having over 400k isn't a selling point.

What evidence do you have that the Dolphins' catchment cannot sustain an NRL club?

Most Sydney clubs with similar catchments can't support their clubs without being subsidised by the NRL. If they and their leagues clubs can't do it then realistically the Dolphins can't either.

And again, the NRL doesn't need another small suburban club that couldn't make ends meet without being propped up by the NRL, it needs big metro clubs that add value and provide lots of opportunities for growth.

They don't need everyone to support them. They just need to get 20k-30k people to buy into their brand. When you factor in how many people have played within the Eastern Suburbs Tigers District for one of their subdistrict clubs since the 50s, there would be at least 100k people who've either played for one of their junior clubs or had sons, brothers, uncles and grandparents who have. Probably more. These people have an emotional connection to the club due to watching their family members represent them. RL and sport in general is tribal. People who can identify with a club because they spent many years of their lives playing for one of its teams or watched a relative do so is something that a neutral brand will never have.

You are delusional if you think you'll get that many people actively supporting a club per capita .

None of the clubs get that sort of turnout, not even Newcastle and per capita they probably have the best turnout.

What you'll actually do by tightly linking the team to a historic club and "it's" district is you'll alienate all the people from other districts, and bunch of people from within the district that aren't big fans of the most successful club within said district. In other words you'll piss off the thousands of people that would take the club from being a small club with sub 20k support, to a big club (by NRL standards) with 30ish thousand supporters.

I'll use Redcliffe as an example, because whether it's intentional or not the Easts are actually going the right way about it by trying to distance the NRL bid's brand from the Tigers brand, but how many e.g. Norths Devils fans do you think are going to turn out to support the e.g. Morton Bay/North Brisbane Dolphins? Not to many right!

Well if the Dolphins are to be successful then they need some of those Devils fans, and some fans from as many of the other local clubs as possible, to jump onboard and support their NRL team, otherwise it'll be a suburban club that fails to meet it's potential and fails to meet the potential of expansion clubs which will set the sport back years just like the Titans failing to meet their potential did.

Now if that team was called, e.g., the North Brisbane Browns how many of those Devils fans would be inclined to at least check the team out? Probably way more right, because they have no reason to hate the Browns and they have every reason to hate the Dolphins.

There have probably been just as many, if not more, neutral branded pro sports clubs go bankrupt in Australia over the last 40 years.

Sure, but 99% of cases where a club with a neutral brand has folded their brand hasn't been a major contributing factor in their failure.

However when a team that's been promoted fails often their brand alienating a large portion of their potential market has been a major contributing factor in their failure.

Remember when I said to compare the Dolphins to other clubs that have attempted the same thing? Well take the Canberra Vikings for example; they are literally a carbon copy of what the Dolphins are attempting to do but on a smaller scale. Here's how that has turned out for them 3 times now, and guess what, all those guys that hate the Vikings guts, they played in the same district as them...

 

[Perth Red]

Yep.
Indeed there would need to be financial investment & concessions for an expansion team by the ARLC. But those numbers for the Storm were of a different era, where broadcast deals were minute compared to today - and under management of an era still steaming from the Super League war. With a PVL in-charge, and a clear strategy - such investment & concessions would be nothing like the Storm moneypit.

Competitive from day 1 doesn't infer they can win the comp. But getting a competitive team on the park wouldnt be as big an issue as some might say.

As for where are the player pools to fish in..... there will be a number of them such as

Pacific Islands.
PNG
England
New Zealand


I'm more looking ahead.... thinking that a reborn Rams team wouldn't happen for another 10 years or so. So by this time, with International Rugby League being fostered further (post-covid), systems/structures/strategies in place to identify and develop talent - particularly in the Pacific & PNG - the quality of players will be there in volumes. There could even be investment in Perth juniors to provide pathways to the NRL, linking them to Adelaide potentially as a feeder club... which ultimately could lead to a stronger case for the Reds to come back after that..

The playing talent isn't around at the moment for 18 teams IMO. However with PVL leading the ship, guys like Gus Gould dedicated to looking at pathway development internationally over an extensive period of time... player volume and quality wont be an issue. We are a way off investing in this until the financial disasters of Covid are overcome... but fast forwarding to 2030, I think we could get there.

Until Adelaide gets that you beaut stadium it has no advantages over perth other than a 2hr shorter flight, and I’m not sure that’s a great priority for choosing a strategic growth investment

as it stands perth has it over Adelaide in every criteria you want to think of.
Jnrs
Grassroots
Fanbase
Investors
City Corporate strength
Population
Stadium
Govt support

 

[Perth Red]

$200mill to run a perth club? Have we become the epl?
Lol is that a year, a decade, a century, what?

$13mill grant +$5mill sponsorship + $3mill fan revenue + $1mill owner investor +$3mill nrl investment. Sorted. Clubs shouldn’t need more than $25mill a year to r7n an nrl club with a $10mill salary cap and a $4mill football cap. Wtf do you spend the other $11mill plus on? If nrl is t willing to invest in growing the the game then let’s stop talking about it and be happy with the comp we have. As Titans have shown any new club can get into trouble, heartland or expansion area.

any new club is going to need to be able to generate around that to be sustainable

 

[Vee]

Agreed.

Biased as I might be, it's the reason I started this thread - Adelaide should be a legitimate option for expansion and it needs to be in the discussions. If only there was more talk in the media about it.

Maybe if an Adelaide bid existed.

 

[Bring back John Fifita]

Until Adelaide gets that you beaut stadium it has no advantages over perth other than a 2hr shorter flight, and I’m not sure that’s a great priority for choosing a strategic growth investment

as it stands perth has it over Adelaide in every criteria you want to think of.
Jnrs
Grassroots
Fanbase
Investors
City Corporate strength
Population
Stadium
Govt support

+3hrs when flying west from Sydney..And in the Case of teams like the Cowboys and Warriors add on a few more hours just for fun.

Its actually quicker to fly from Sydney to Port Moresby than it is to Perth. ...

Hello over there!!

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Most of this is just horse shit, and honestly it's a waste of everybody's time going through it in detail, so I'm gonna cut the crap down.

I mean you are simply trying to deny reality when it comes to the Crushers. None of your examples are like for like either, for example trying to compare the NBL and A-league clubs to the NRL given their differences in financial circumstances is just ridiculous in this context. It's like saying McDonald's and the local burger chain are both fastfood franchises therefor they are the same and will have same outcomes, which simply isn't the case. A bunch more of your examples are just flat out wrong as well, the Seagulls for example.

A strong leagues club doesn't equal a strong football club. Many a club with strong leagues clubs have struggled and/or folded over the years, the Seagulls for example.

Also just because you have $100mil (or whatever it is they are claiming in the media) in assets doesn't mean you are willing to risk them to support the football club. $100 also isn't as much it sounds like in real terms, but that is a whole other discussion.

The Dolphins don't represent all of Morton Bay.

No matter how many times you try to roll that turd in glitter it isn't going to change that fact, and the fact the people from other parts of Morton Bay have spent their whole lives playing against and hating the Dolphins.

The NRL doesn't need anymore small suburban or regional clubs either, in fact it's already got to many. So bragging about having over 400k isn't a selling point.


Most Sydney clubs with similar catchments can't support their clubs without being subsidised by the NRL. If they and their leagues clubs can't do it then realistically the Dolphins can't either.

And again, the NRL doesn't need another small suburban club that couldn't make ends meet without being propped up by the NRL, it needs big metro clubs that add value and provide lots of opportunities for growth.

You are delusional if you think you'll get that many people actively supporting a club per capita .

None of the clubs get that sort of turnout, not even Newcastle and per capita they probably have the best turnout.

What you'll actually do by tightly linking the team to a historic club and "it's" district is you'll alienate all the people from other districts, and bunch of people from within the district that aren't big fans of the most successful club within said district. In other words you'll piss off the thousands of people that would take the club from being a small club with sub 20k support, to a big club (by NRL standards) with 30ish thousand supporters.

I'll use Redcliffe as an example, because whether it's intentional or not the Easts are actually going the right way about it by trying to distance the NRL bid's brand from the Tigers brand, but how many e.g. Norths Devils fans do you think are going to turn out to support the e.g. Morton Bay/North Brisbane Dolphins? Not to many right!

Well if the Dolphins are to be successful then they need some of those Devils fans, and some fans from as many of the other local clubs as possible, to jump onboard and support their NRL team, otherwise it'll be a suburban club that fails to meet it's potential and fails to meet the potential of expansion clubs which will set the sport back years just like the Titans failing to meet their potential did.

Now if that team was called, e.g., the North Brisbane Browns how many of those Devils fans would be inclined to at least check the team out? Probably way more right, because they have no reason to hate the Browns and they have every reason to hate the Dolphins.

Sure, but 99% of cases where a club with a neutral brand has folded their brand hasn't been a major contributing factor in their failure.

However when a team that's been promoted fails often their brand alienating a large portion of their potential market has been a major contributing factor in their failure.

Remember when I said to compare the Dolphins to other clubs that have attempted the same thing? Well take the Canberra Vikings for example; they are literally a carbon copy of what the Dolphins are attempting to do but on a smaller scale. Here's how that has turned out for them 3 times now, and guess what, all those guys that hate the Vikings guts, they played in the same district as them...

I'm always told we need to have teams in Adelaide and Perth because even the niche sports have one. Whenever I point out it costs far more to run an NRL club than an AIHL, NBL or A-LEAGUE club, making it extremely difficult for an NRL club in a non-RL city to raise the capital needed to survive, I am met with the sound of crickets. Now that I dare to use the NBL ans A-LEAGUE as an example to show how many neutrally branded clubs have folded, you say it's a furphy to compare the sports. WTF?

I know the Crushers situation quite well thank you. They were opposed by the Broncos from day 1. I recall seeing John Ribot on The Brisbane Footy Show talking them down in 1995. The local media did not give them much coverage, especially the News Ltd print media which had a 100% monopoly on that medium. The Pay TV rights for the ARL were tied up with Optus Vision, and bugger all people had that.

This happened during an era when people subscribed to the print media in large numbers. The paper boy delivered The Courier-Mail, wrapped in plastic, each morning in 1995. Almost every household I knew of subscribed to it.

The club did have the game's first $1M sponsor, but the lack of coverage made the club invisible, so bugger all people chipped in to bail them out when the shit hit the fan. The fact they were a neutrally branded club worked against them too, as no one had an emotional attachment to them, because they had no history and were losers on the field. Why would anyone waste money on a failing business, with zero history, when it was being squeezed out of the market by News Ltd?

One club that was squeezed out by News Ltd did manage to fight their way back. Souths. They won because their long history resonated with all RL fans. Supporters from all clubs marched in protest. None of them did that for the neutral branded clubs that were cut. Long term fans of Souths were willing to take News Ltd and the NRL to court because they were emotionally attached to the club. Reds, Rams, Chargers, Crushers, and Mariners got cut and few people cared, because they had little history.

You've got the Seagulls situation all wrong. They had a strong Leagues Club until the Queensland Labor Gov, under Wayne Goss, made pokies legal at gaming venues. Before that date, all the oldies who lived north of the Tweed would catch the bus to Seagulls Leagues, just over the border, to play the pokies. When they could play them on the Gold Coast they stopped making the trip to Seagulls, which bankrupted it as Tweed Heads is tiny. I remember seeing Heather Foord report this on the Ch9 News back in the day. That's why the Gold Coast Seagulls folded and became the Gladiators / Chargers.

You've given me just one example of a local club failing. The Canberra Vikings RU team. One lousy team from a niche sport in a regional city isn't proof that clubs in large metro areas like Brisbane can only succeed if they're neutrally branded. Canberra and Brisbane are two very different places. You're contradicting yourself too, as you've said in the past that no one under the age of 35 remembers the BRL and claimed it has few supporters, yet now you're saying the majority of people will hate the Dolphins with a passion.

How can people hate a team they've never heard of?

Brisbane 2 will take time to grow a fanbase. Regardless of whether it is neutrally branded or a BRL club. Brisbane 2 needs to differentiate itself from the Broncos, who themselves are a neutrally branded club that tries to appeal to all of SE Queensland. Geographical representation is the best differentiator to get people onside and create a true rivalry. Add a long and proud history and you've got a winner.

I'm a Wynnum fan but I'll support the Firehawks if they're introduced. Petty rivalries at BRL level won't mean shit to me if the Firehawks are flying the flag for southern Brisbane. There will be people who won't, but some will. Add all the kids who don't have any link to a BRL club, but live in Tigers territory, and you've got a fanbase.

You and I will never agree, so let's agree to disagree.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

$200mill to run a perth club? Have we become the epl?
Lol is that a year, a decade, a century, what?

$13mill grant +$5mill sponsorship + $3mill fan revenue + $1mill owner investor +$3mill nrl investment. Sorted. Clubs shouldn’t need more than $25mill a year to r7n an nrl club with a $10mill salary cap and a $4mill football cap. Wtf do you spend the other $11mill plus on? If nrl is t willing to invest in growing the the game then let’s stop talking about it and be happy with the comp we have. As Titans have shown any new club can get into trouble, heartland or expansion area.

any new club is going to need to be able to generate around that to be sustainable

You're being obtuse. Perth is going to need far more than Brisbane 2, or any other club in RL heartland, because a) it'll have no Leagues Club with pokies to deliver a revenue stream, as it's illegal in WA, b) tyranny of distance will make travel very expensive for its NRL team and fringe players who are sent to play in the Queensland/NSW Cup, c) it'll need to build the facilities that all NRL clubs rely on to keep their players' fitness levels in line with other clubs. That requires land to be leased or bought, permits to construct large buildings and staff to operate them. Between 98-12 it cost News Ltd over $100M to do this at the Storm, and another $26.5M over the next 6 seasons. So $126.5M over 20 years. In today's money that's probably $200M.

A Perth team isn't going to rake in a long line of sponsors because RL is a niche sport in Perth and linked with the lower class. The local companies in bed with RU won't give it the time of day.

Dolphins and Easts have been building this infrastructure over the last 10-15 years. Easts are almost complete and Dolphins are ready to go.

 

[Perth Red]

+3hrs when flying west from Sydney..And in the Case of teams like the Cowboys and Warriors add on a few more hours just for fun.

Its actually quicker to fly from Sydney to Port Moresby than it is to Perth. ...

Hello over there!!

depends which way your going. Perth to Sydney I do regularly in a snip under 4 hours. Coming back is usually around 4hrs 45min. Wind dependant.

 

[MugaB]

depends which way your going. Perth to Sydney I do regularly in a snip under 4 hours. Coming back is usually around 4hrs 45min. Wind dependant.

You mean to Melbourne? When youre watching ALF at marvel stadium

 

[Perth Red]

You're being obtuse. Perth is going to need far more than Brisbane 2, or any other club in RL heartland, because a) it'll have no Leagues Club with pokies to deliver a revenue stream, as it's illegal in WA, b) tyranny of distance will make travel very expensive for its NRL team and fringe players who are sent to play in the Queensland/NSW Cup, c) it'll need to build the facilities that all NRL clubs rely on to keep their players' fitness levels in line with other clubs. That requires land to be leased or bought, permits to construct large buildings and staff to operate them. Between 98-12 it cost News Ltd over $100M to do this at the Storm, and another $26.5M over the next 6 seasons. So $126.5M over 20 years. In today's money that's probably $200M.

A Perth team isn't going to rake in a long line of sponsors because RL is a niche sport in Perth and linked with the lower class. The local companies in bed with RU won't give it the time of day.

Dolphins and Easts have been building this infrastructure over the last 10-15 years. Easts are almost complete and Dolphins are ready to go.

Pirates in 2023 would be in no way be comparable to the situation Storm faced in 98. Totally different times. Like I said news ltd could afford to chuck money at storm and did just like Crowe did to take Souths from a basket case broke club no one went to watch to where they are now, or Parra LC does in tipping in $5mill a year to eels. You spend what you’ve got.

Be honest, if an nrl investment of an extra $26mill ended up with perth or Adelaide being as succesful as the storm would you consider it a good return?

you’re other comment about no one cared about reds, rams etc going is bs. We went from 10kmregistered players in WA to less than 500 in space of a few years because people walked away from the game disgusted at the decision. Took us till 2010 to right the ship after that decision.

 

[MugaB]

Pirates in 2023 would be in no way be comparable to the situation Storm faced in 98. Totally different times. Like I said news ltd could afford to chuck money at storm and did just like Crowe did to take Souths from a basket case broke club no one went to watch to where they are now, or Parra LC does in tipping in $5mill a year to eels. You spend what you’ve got.

you’re other comment about no one cared about reds, rams etc going is bs. We went from 10kmregistered players in WA to less than 500 in space of a few years because people walked away from the game disgusted at the decision.

Yeah thats right, i didn't see anyone walk the streets for the reds back then.
In all seriousness i wish they kept all the SL teams, and only just moved Hunter to Melbourne, maybe hung onto the Crushers, that's more than 25 years that could have grown in those areas

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Pirates in 2023 would be in no way be comparable to the situation Storm faced in 98. Totally different times. Like I said news ltd could afford to chuck money at storm and did just like Crowe did to take Souths from a basket case broke club no one went to watch to where they are now, or Parra LC does in tipping in $5mill a year to eels. You spend what you’ve got.

Be honest, if an nrl investment of an extra $26mill ended up with perth or Adelaide being as succesful as the storm would you consider it a good return?

you’re other comment about no one cared about reds, rams etc going is bs. We went from 10kmregistered players in WA to less than 500 in space of a few years because people walked away from the game disgusted at the decision. Took us till 2010 to right the ship after that decision.

You don't know it, but you're backing up my point. 10k down to 500 is a loss of 9,500 players. A 95% reduction. They obviously weren't long time followers of the sport if they abandoned it in such large numbers. That's the sort of "fan" the ARLC will attract in Perth. Fickle fence sitters who'll get on the bandwagon when the times are good, but will abandon ship the moment a wrench is thrown in the works. That means any club in Perth will need to be finishing in the top 4 every year to remain relevant. That will require the sort of investment that was made with the Storm to accrue the best talent scouts spread all over Australia, NZ, PNG and Fiji and, development officers, coaches, fitness and conditioning staff, etc. So it'll cost a lot more than $26M.

People on the Gold Coast and in Brisbane kept playing and watching RL when the Chargers and Crushers were booted. That's the difference between SEQ and Perth. Brisbane and Gold Coast are RL cities. Perth isn't.

AwFuL is twice as big in Perth now than in 1995. RU is there now and has been for some time. RL will be fighting for the scraps in the 2020s against 2 AwFuL juggernauts, an RU team heavily financed by Twiggy, cricket and popular clubs from niche sports like basketball, netball, and soccer.

 

[mongoose]

People on the Gold Coast and in Brisbane kept playing and watching RL when the Chargers and Crushers were booted. That's the difference between SEQ and Perth. Brisbane and Gold Coast are RL cities. Perth isn't.
.

Expansion is about growing the game in new areas though, that is something you just have not been able to fathom. Of course it's difficult and requires time and money.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Expansion is about growing the game in new areas though, that is something you just have not been able to fathom. Of course it's difficult and requires time and money.

RU went about expanding around the country for the sake of it and almost went broke. They're now lightyears behind where they were with just 3 teams.

What you fail to fathom is it's not as simple as throwing money behind a team in alien territory over many decades. You refuse to acknowledge that the ARLC was set up to give the 16 NRL clubs, NSWRL and QRL the power to have a say on matters like this.

Do you honestly think they're all going to vote to fund a Perth team to the tune of $125M-$200M over 20 years?

What's in it for them?

The circumstances that led to the Storm's creation and eventual success were unique and will not present themselves for Adelaide and Perth. That's a fact you refuse to acknowledge. There's also a question mark over how well the Storm will fare off the field when the results on it start to dry up. The NRL would be crazy to put a team in Perth before that question has been answered, because, if Storm fall into a heap after Bellamy and Smith leave, on and off the field to the point they need bailing out, then the ARLC will have two albatrosses around their neck.

You haven't stated where the $200M is going to come from.

When you're shown official statements from PVL and comments from other commissioners that point blank say Perth is not getting a team you perform all sorts of mental gymnastics to convince yourself that they're getting a team by 2030.

 

[mongoose]

The NRL is already giving ALL clubs 13 million a year, you know what that adds up to over 20 years? $260 million! for each 16 clubs!

Perth expansion has been on the radar for over a decade, just because V'landys and some random commissioner makes some throwaway remark doesn't mean anything is set in stone. You've just latched on to these comments because they suit your argument.

This idea you have that NRL clubs must be backed by Leagues clubs is old fashioned. Which clubs do you think were and probably still are the most at risk of folding during Covid? The ones who rely the most on Leagues clubs money! Governments are constantly trying to reform and rein in pokie use in NSW and QLD.