The Case for Adelaide.....

[Perth Red]

How can Titans only have $9.5mill us revenue when the nrl grant alone is $9.9mill us?

nrl won’t expand to these areas because it has no ambition. Vlandys is small minded and has no vision,
On a $500mill revenue it could easily have bankrolled Adelaide and perth for a decade if it had the desire to do so. The fact the game of rugby league professionally is still so geographically confined around the world to just a handful of places is testament to the games ongoing lack of ambition, management ability and strategic vision. But hey it’s strong in Brisbane and Sydney and along the m62 so all good.

 

[Perth Red]

Melbourne Storm are making a profit now, after 20 years of racking up a massive debt, to the tune of $126.5M, to get them where they are right now. You think Adelaide and Perth will enter the NRL and either survive on private investment, which is ridiculous. The Storm racked up $100M debt by 2012. If it wasn't for them being owned by a mega rich company like News Ltd, who had a 50% stake in the game, giving them the ability to protect Melbourne from having their licence revoked, then they would have folded years ago.

There is no News Ltd around to give these leg ups to Adelaide and Perth.

Why do you think Adelaide and Perth will not require the same assistance as the Storm?

you’ve been told a dozen times you can’t compare the storm 98-2018 and what Storm had that much spent on them because a) it was coming out of SL when player contracts were still ridiculous, b) their owners could afford to chuck silly money at them, c) they had small crowds in a sht ground d) clubs were getting tiny nrl grants. None of that applies to perth or Adelaide

you could say why on earth do the broncos spend $56mill a year when the Titans only spend $25mill a year. Clubs spend what they’ve got.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

How can Titans only have $9.5mill us revenue when the nrl grant alone is $9.9mill us?

nrl won’t expand to these areas because it has no ambition. Vlandys is small minded and has no vision,
On a $500mill revenue it could easily have bankrolled Adelaide and perth for a decade if it had the desire to do so. The fact the game of rugby league professionally is still so geographically confined around the world to just a handful of places is testament to the games ongoing lack of ambition, management ability and strategic vision. But hey it’s strong in Brisbane and Sydney and along the m62 so all good.

My guess is the company providing the data is only counting sales made by the Titans, not money given to them by the ARLC.

It's not as easy as putting RL teams in an area and hoping they will be accepted. RL has always been linked with the lower class due to its working class origins in Huddersfield, England and rebellion against the ruling classes.

Big corporations and the snobs who run are snobs and don't forget or forgive when a they're put in their place by people they think are beneath them. Look at how Rupert Murdoch responded when Dave Smith stood up to him. England's ruling class banned RL from being played in the military and schools until the 1990s.

France's Vichy regime of the 1930s banned the game from using the word "rugby", banned it from schools and seized all of its assets and gave them to the French RU.

The snobby GPS system in Australia has banned RL from being played at their schools.

A Sydney man was locked up in UAE foe using his money to promote RL after the local RU complained about him. South Africa refuses to recognise us as a sport.

The ruling elite in non-RL cities are going to be reluctant to saddle up with our sport for the same reason.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

you’ve been told a dozen times you can’t compare the storm 98-2018 and what Storm had that much spent on them because a) it was coming out of SL when player contracts were still ridiculous, b) their owners could afford to chuck silly money at them, c) they had small crowds in a sht ground d) clubs were getting tiny nrl grants. None of that applies to perth or Adelaide

you could say why on earth do the broncos spend $56mill a year when the Titans only spend $25mill a year. Clubs spend what they’ve got.

You've got it backwards regarding the salary cap.

Salary cap for 1999 was $3.25m.

It was lifted to $3.9m for 2007.

$4.1m in 2009 for top 25 players.

https://www.nrl.com/news/2010/04/22/nrl-salary-cap-explained/

Adelaide and Perth will most likely be playing in front of tiny crowds during their first few years. The only way they'll draw 15k or up is if they're always winning like the Storm. There's no way they'll be anything but strugglers on the field as their initial playing squads will be made up of discarded players from the other clubs looking for game time and players from the state leagues. Melbourne assembled a quality squad in 1998 from the demise of the Crushers, Reds and Mariners. Adelaide and Perth will not have this luxury.

It's one thing having a grant of $13m, but it doesn't mean they'll be able to sign up a squad that is in Melbourne's league. All the best players will be locked up in long term deals with the successful clubs and won't want to move nor will they be allowed to negotiate with Adelaide and Perth while under contract.

 

[Perth Red]

My guess is the company providing the data is only counting sales made by the Titans, not money given to them by the ARLC.

n.

not when you look at some of the other clubs supposed revenue, grants are income from a financial revenue point of view. If it is so, I see absolutely no reason perth or Adelaide couldn’t generate equal sales to the Titans given the very limited gate and membership sales of the Titans,

 

[Perth Red]

You've got it backwards regarding the salary cap.

Salary cap for 1999 was $3.25m.

It was lifted to $3.9m for 2007.

$4.1m in 2009 for top 25 players.

https://www.nrl.com/news/2010/04/22/nrl-salary-cap-explained/

Adelaide and Perth will most likely be playing in front of tiny crowds during their first few years. The only way they'll draw 15k or up is if they're always winning like the Storm. There's no way they'll be anything but strugglers on the field as their initial playing squads will be made up of discarded players from the other clubs looking for game time and players from the state leagues. Melbourne assembled a quality squad in 1998 from the demise of the Crushers, Reds and Mariners. Adelaide and Perth will not have this luxury.

It's one thing having a grant of $13m, but it doesn't mean they'll be able to sign up a squad that is in Melbourne's league. All the best players will be locked up in long term deals with the successful clubs and won't want to move nor will they be allowed to negotiate with Adelaide and Perth while under contract.

if they’ve got the financial clout and right people in right places there is absolutely no reason, with a three year lead time, either Adelaide or Perth couldn't assemble a competitive squad for their first period. I could have out an 8th place squad together for 2022 with everyone off contract or available this next two years and with what’s in uk. Perth is a beautiful place to live and many players back in the 90’s still talk fondly of their time at the reds and some stayed here or came back after retirement they loved the place so much.

Example of some of the players up for grabs or in uk you could entice over for start up 2022. Extend out to 2023 or 24 and there is a heap of players off contract

1. Adam Quinlan (ex Pirates jnr)
2. Josh Ado Carr
3. Kane Linnet
4. Konrad Hurrell
5. Tristan Sailor
6. Josh Reynolds
7. Benji Marshall
8. Alex Walmsley
9. Cameron Smith
10. Robbie Mulhern
11. Brad Takairanga
12. Ben Teo
13. Chris McQueen

there’s plenty of talent out there if an expansion club is supported to build a competitive first squad. Then throw in signing as many talented 18-20 years olds as possible and starting in nsw cup so when first team comes in there is a conveyor belt already happening.

given the amount of kiwi and English RL fans in perth Id be going hard to sign some high profile Nz and SL players to get fans on board.

 

[Perth Red]

My guess is the company providing the data is only counting sales made by the Titans, not money given to them by the ARLC.

It's not as easy as putting RL teams in an area and hoping they will be accepted. RL has always been linked with the lower class due to its working class origins in Huddersfield, England and rebellion against the ruling classes.

Big corporations and the snobs who run are snobs and don't forget or forgive when a they're put in their place by people they think are beneath them. Look at how Rupert Murdoch responded when Dave Smith stood up to him. England's ruling class banned RL from being played in the military and schools until the 1990s.

France's Vichy regime of the 1930s banned the game from using the word "rugby", banned it from schools and seized all of its assets and gave them to the French RU.

The snobby GPS system in Australia has banned RL from being played at their schools.

A Sydney man was locked up in UAE foe using his money to promote RL after the local RU complained about him. South Africa refuses to recognise us as a sport.

The ruling elite in non-RL cities are going to be reluctant to saddle up with our sport for the same reason.

thatbis just a self fulfilling prophecy and excuse that keeps the game shackled and limits its growth. Or are you saying there is no working class people in every city in the world? Lol.

how do you explain the 10k that used to play the game in perth, the sold out nib crowds, the sold out stadium for the test match, the 39k for a double header, the 60k for origin? RL is its own worst enemy, once again shown by the Leigh decision, it has no faith in its product and no ambition. You are the epitome of everything that is holding the game back from fulfilling what it could be.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

not when you look at some of the other clubs supposed revenue, grants are income from a financial revenue point of view. If it is so, I see absolutely no reason perth or Adelaide couldn’t generate equal sales to the Titans given the very limited gate and membership sales of the Titans,

Adelaide might be able to generate $9.5m (USD) a year, but how will that grow the game in South Australia?

A team run like the Titans will be the whipping boys of the competition. How is a team that'll struggle to win 6 games a year going to entice rusted on fumbleball fans in smallish Adelaide to regularly attend NRL matches?

If we want Adelaide to be successful off the field then it will need to produce the results on it.

Adelaide would need to be based on the Melbourne Storm model to have any hope, in my opinion. What are the odds of that happening? My guess is zero as there's no News Ltd to bail them out and make them a powerhouse and, they won't have the bones of three 3 dead clubs to build a classy roster that will make them competitive from day one.

The Storm wouldn't average 15k in Melbourne if they were perennial strugglers on the field. They would be shunned. They've carved a niche in that market by being the best team in the league over the last 22 years. The superiority/inferiority complex that Victorians have, especially with regard to their secondary status to Sydney, gives them a reason to watch the Storm as they're beating Sydney at its own game. There's no way they would loyally support a team that was getting flogged year after year from their inception.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

if they’ve got the financial clout and right people in right places there is absolutely no reason, with a three year lead time, either Adelaide or Perth couldn't assemble a competitive squad for their first period. I could have out an 8th place squad together for 2022 with everyone off contract or available this next two years and with what’s in uk. Perth is a beautiful place to live and many players back in the 90’s still talk fondly of their time at the reds and some stayed here or came back after retirement they loved the place so much.

Example of some of the players up for grabs or in uk you could entice over for start up 2022. Extend out to 2023 or 24 and there is a heap of players off contract

1. Adam Quinlan (ex Pirates jnr)
2. Josh Ado Carr
3. Kane Linnet
4. Konrad Hurrell
5. Tristan Sailor
6. Josh Reynolds
7. Benji Marshall
8. Alex Walmsley
9. Cameron Smith
10. Robbie Mulhern
11. Brad Takairanga
12. Ben Teo
13. Chris McQueen

there’s plenty of talent out there if an expansion club is supported to build a competitive first squad. Then throw in signing as many talented 18-20 years olds as possible and starting in nsw cup so when first team comes in there is a conveyor belt already happening.

given the amount of kiwi and English RL fans in perth Id be going hard to sign some high profile Nz and SL players to get fans on board.

That's a lot of "if's" that need to happen for it to be successful. There's little chance of it happening.

If the ARLC was set up differently then what you've suggested could become a reality. But it's not, so we have to be work with what we have, which is a board that's run by the clubs and state bodies.

Neither Adelaide or Perth have the right people in charge, at the moment, to provide the financial clout and brains to assemble a competitive team in the NRL. Peter Cumins is heading the Pirates bid and he was on the board of the Western Reds that failed. The Reds had a decent squad, but it couldn't crack the top 8. The squad you've put together is mostly made up of players who are over the hill or not good enough to get a spot with a top 8 team. Addo-Carr's speed is great in a winning side, but he alone won't make a team successful. Cam Smith is a legend but he's too old and has probably played his last game.

The only way it could happen is if the ARLC put the right people in charge and gave them concessions that came at the expense of every other club. That's never going to happen. The 16 clubs, QRL and NSWRL have a say on these matters and they'll never support it.

Brisbane 2 will soak up many of those 18-20 year olds, which means less scraps for teams in non-RL cities.

The Super League could be a good breeding ground for Adelaide and Perth, I will give you that. There are plenty of quality forwards running around in the ESL that are up to NRL standard. There are some decent outside backs over there with potential, but none have succeeded in Australia over the last 25 years because no club has given them enough time to adjust to the game. The English halfback at Canberra has shown what there's talent in England that can make the game better. Maybe Adelaide and Perth could give outside backs from England the chance they need to be successful.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

thatbis just a self fulfilling prophecy and excuse that keeps the game shackled and limits its growth. Or are you saying there is no working class people in every city in the world? Lol.

how do you explain the 10k that used to play the game in perth, the sold out nib crowds, the sold out stadium for the test match, the 39k for a double header, the 60k for origin? RL is its own worst enemy, once again shown by the Leigh decision, it has no faith in its product and no ambition. You are the epitome of everything that is holding the game back from fulfilling what it could be.

There are working class people there, but they're already emotionally invested in sports like fumbleball, soccer, basketball and whatever else is played in those parts of the world. Getting them to give up those games and adopt ours will require money, time and a top 4 team stays competitive for 20 years. We don't have a Twiggy Forrest or a large network of influential businessmen in AwFuL cities willing to sink $20m-$30m per annum into an NRL team.

Any investment will need to come from the ARLC. Can you see the ARLC ever going to those lengths to grow the game in Adelaide and Perth? I'll be surprised if they give us Brisbane 2.

Perth has done well at supporting major one-off RL events. Will that translate into strong support for an NRL team playing 12 games a year?

One-off events are a novelty. Regularly attending NRL games 12 times a year, year after after, is something that only the very committed will do.

 

[Bring back John Fifita]

Adelaide Rams time...

What better way to stay dry on those wet winter days at the footy than to don a classic Rams poncho..

 

[mongoose]

That's a lot of "if's" that need to happen for it to be successful. There's little chance of it happening.

If the ARLC was set up differently then what you've suggested could become a reality. But it's not, so we have to be work with what we have, which is a board that's run by the clubs and state bodies.

Neither Adelaide or Perth have the right people in charge, at the moment, to provide the financial clout and brains to assemble a competitive team in the NRL. Peter Cumins is heading the Pirates bid and he was on the board of the Western Reds that failed. The Reds had a decent squad, but it couldn't crack the top 8. The squad you've put together is mostly made up of players who are over the hill or not good enough to get a spot with a top 8 team. Addo-Carr's speed is great in a winning side, but he alone won't make a team successful. Cam Smith is a legend but he's too old and has probably played his last game.

The only way it could happen is if the ARLC put the right people in charge and gave them concessions that came at the expense of every other club. That's never going to happen. The 16 clubs, QRL and NSWRL have a say on these matters and they'll never support it.

Brisbane 2 will soak up many of those 18-20 year olds, which means less scraps for teams in non-RL cities.

The Super League could be a good breeding ground for Adelaide and Perth, I will give you that. There are plenty of quality forwards running around in the ESL that are up to NRL standard. There are some decent outside backs over there with potential, but none have succeeded in Australia over the last 25 years because no club has given them enough time to adjust to the game. The English halfback at Canberra has shown what there's talent in England that can make the game better. Maybe Adelaide and Perth could give outside backs from England the chance they need to be successful.

Seriously, 3-4 paragraphs to reply to every 1 of his.... you're going to give yourself an aneurysm.

Maybe Perth and Adelaide teams will fail but there is no way they will put another 2 or 3 teams in Brisbane in the foreseeable future. You're dreaming if you think the Broncos and News will allow a 3rd Brisbane team so an 18th team will most likely be Perth, Adelaide or NZ.

 

[MugaB]

Seriously, 3-4 paragraphs to reply to every 1 of his.... you're going to give yourself an aneurysm.

Maybe Perth and Adelaide teams will fail but there is no way they will put another 2 or 3 teams in Brisbane in the foreseeable future. You're dreaming if you think the Broncos and News will allow a 3rd Brisbane team so an 18th team will most likely be Perth, Adelaide or NZ.

I reckon it might be NZ2 or Cc

 

[Perth Red]

There are working class people there, but they're already emotionally invested in sports like fumbleball, soccer, basketball and whatever else is played in those parts of the world. Getting them to give up those games and adopt ours will require money, time and a top 4 team stays competitive for 20 years. We don't have a Twiggy Forrest or a large network of influential businessmen in AwFuL cities willing to sink $20m-$30m per annum into an NRL team.

Any investment will need to come from the ARLC. Can you see the ARLC ever going to those lengths to grow the game in Adelaide and Perth? I'll be surprised if they give us Brisbane 2.

Perth has done well at supporting major one-off RL events. Will that translate into strong support for an NRL team playing 12 games a year?

One-off events are a novelty. Regularly attending NRL games 12 times a year, year after after, is something that only the very committed will do.

like I said if Titans are generating $25mill a year then there is no reason perth or Adelaide cant do same or better. Why do you think it will cost $55mill a year to run a perth nrl club when 75% of the current clubs are operating on revenues sub $30million?

will they turn up every game? yes if it’s good entertainment, good value and an enjoyable way to spend a few hours on a weekend. There is no argument there are at least 30-50k dedicated or interested RL fans in perth. The trick will be for the Pirates, with the support of the nrl, to engage them.

like I said you are the epitome of the negativity that shackles our game and drives our lack of faith in our product and lack of belief that it can grow in new markets.

Look at how massive the nrl has become around the world, I was in uk in the 80’s when American football was largely unknown and first shown in highlights on a Sunday night for an hour on a secondary channel, by the 90’s with virtually no expense spent it had become very popular and was filling wembley stadium, had national grassroots comps across Europe and had an ill fated professional world league that was drawing 50k plus crowds. There’s an est 2million nfl fans now in uk and sky sports has signed a massive tv deal with them for a dedicated channel as well the nfl having a fta deal with ch5 and with digital streaming. All that in 35years
At some point it will likely have a London franchise.

Build it and they will come! We have an amazing on field product, we just need some amazing off field people to grow it!

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Maybe Perth and Adelaide teams will fail but there is no way they will put another 2 or 3 teams in Brisbane in the foreseeable future. You're dreaming if you think the Broncos and News will allow a 3rd Brisbane team so an 18th team will most likely be Perth, Adelaide or NZ.

I've read articles in the paper saying the broadcasters don't want 18 teams.

My guess is we'll have 17 teams until one strikes up financial problems, then it'll be cut to bring it back to 16.

Manly will in dire straights when Penn pulls up stumps.

MANLY-WARRINGAH SEA EAGLES LIMITED has 157 total employees across all of its locations and generates $16.00 million in sales (USD).

Key Principal
SCOTT RICHARD PENN

Incorporated
1987

Website
www.seaeagles.com.au

https://www.dnb.com/business-direct...limited.b55c7a4b6dfbd8b13924b79924415755.html

Do you honestly think News Ltd and Ch9 want teams in Adelaide and Perth?

News Ltd cut the Reds and Rams when they were 50% stakeholders in the game.

Ch9 doesn't want teams in those cities, but all reports show they want another one in Brisbane. With Foxtel signed up until 2027 and Ch9 only to 2023 that gives the ARLC and Ch9 more clout when it comes to adding Brisbane 2.

I wouldn't be surprised if Titans were relocated to Brisbane to become the 3rd team.

 

[Travitoh]

There are working class people there, but they're already emotionally invested in sports like fumbleball, soccer, basketball and whatever else is played in those parts of the world. Getting them to give up those games and adopt ours will require money, time and a top 4 team stays competitive for 20 years. We don't have a Twiggy Forrest or a large network of influential businessmen in AwFuL cities willing to sink $20m-$30m per annum into an NRL team.

Any investment will need to come from the ARLC. Can you see the ARLC ever going to those lengths to grow the game in Adelaide and Perth? I'll be surprised if they give us Brisbane 2.

Perth has done well at supporting major one-off RL events. Will that translate into strong support for an NRL team playing 12 games a year?

One-off events are a novelty. Regularly attending NRL games 12 times a year, year after after, is something that only the very committed will do.

Coming from Adelaide, i can tell you that there is plenty of interest in rugby league from AFL fans. It is possible to follow multiple sports.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Coming from Adelaide, i can tell you that there is plenty of interest in rugby league from AFL fans. It is possible to follow multiple sports.

Then I hope we get an opportunity to expand into Adelaide and Perth at some point. It will do the game a world of good in the long term if it's done right, albeit it a costly exercise. We cannot ignore the very real possibility of it being a massive disaster if it isn't handled correctly.

V'landys' stance on Adelaide and Perth is strong and clear. He is a very good businessman. If he says it'll be a waste of money then who am I to disagree with him?

What are your thoughts on making the Queensland Cup a national second tier competition with teams from PNG, New Caledonia, Adelaide and Perth?

It could team up with the CRL to have teams from Cental Coast and Illawarra. Invite the Newtown Jets and North Sydney Bears to play in it.

 

[Travitoh]

Then I hope we get an opportunity to expand into Adelaide and Perth at some point. It will do the game a world of good in the long term if it's done right, albeit it a costly exercise. We cannot ignore the very real possibility of it being a massive disaster if it isn't handled correctly.

V'landys' stance on Adelaide and Perth is strong and clear. He is a very good businessman. If he says it'll be a waste of money then who am I to disagree with him?

What are your thoughts on making the Queensland Cup a national second tier competition with teams from PNG, New Caledonia, Adelaide and Perth?

It could team up with the CRL to have teams from Cental Coast and Illawarra. Invite the Newtown Jets and North Sydney Bears to play in it.

With promotion/relegation?
Being entered into a closed second teir competition with no further plans would only damage the games reputation here. It would give the impression that we're considered second class citizens by the NRL.
A temporary stay to begin building a squad before joining NRL I'm unsure about. If they manage to get some local talent playing those games it could create interest before the big league.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

like I said if Titans are generating $25mill a year then there is no reason perth or Adelaide cant do same or better. Why do you think it will cost $55mill a year to run a perth nrl club when 75% of the current clubs are operating on revenues sub $30million?

will they turn up every game? yes if it’s good entertainment, good value and an enjoyable way to spend a few hours on a weekend. There is no argument there are at least 30-50k dedicated or interested RL fans in perth. The trick will be for the Pirates, with the support of the nrl, to engage them.

like I said you are the epitome of the negativity that shackles our game and drives our lack of faith in our product and lack of belief that it can grow in new markets.

Look at how massive the nrl has become around the world, I was in uk in the 80’s when American football was largely unknown and first shown in highlights on a Sunday night for an hour on a secondary channel, by the 90’s with virtually no expense spent it had become very popular and was filling wembley stadium, had national grassroots comps across Europe and had an ill fated professional world league that was drawing 50k plus crowds. There’s an est 2million nfl fans now in uk and sky sports has signed a massive tv deal with them for a dedicated channel as well the nfl having a fta deal with ch5 and with digital streaming. All that in 35years
At some point it will likely have a London franchise.

Build it and they will come! We have an amazing on field product, we just need some amazing off field people to grow it!

Are the Titans making $25m?

I cannot find any evidence of it.

TITANS RUGBY LEAGUE PTY LTD has 93 employees at this location and generates $9.50 million in sales (USD). There are 2 companies in the TITANS RUGBY LEAGUE PTY LTD corporate family.

Key Principal
ANTHONY WILLIAM HICKEY

Incorporated
2015

Website
www.titans.com.au

https://www.dnb.com/business-direct...8637f0bca62b4c0f077e5e.html#related-companies​

That's $11,516,850 AuD.
I might be negative, but that's because I don't see any evidence of the game putting teams in Adelaide and Perth. Do you?

V'landys said on a few occasions that there won't be any expansion into "rusted-on AFL states" and referred to it as a waste of money.

Why should I get excited about expansion into these states when it was made clear by V'landys that it's not happening?

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

With promotion/relegation?
Being entered into a closed second teir competition with no further plans would only damage the games reputation here. It would give the impression that we're considered second class citizens by the NRL.
A temporary stay to begin building a squad before joining NRL I'm unsure about. If they manage to get some local talent playing those games it could create interest before the big league.

I would be excited and proud to see them in Queensland's competition and would enjoy watching them play in Brisbane, but I see your point. It would be funny and ironic if it happened, especially if Melbourne fielded a team in it as it would make it more national than the NRL.