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The Children Overboard issue develops

JK

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5,549
^ Pando said:
Willow said:
Answer the question Pando, do you think the Laurel Whittle story is a fabrication?

Hell yes. A fabrication of the worst order.

:lol: :lol:
Why the hell would she lie?

A socialist plant in the armed forces perhaps?? :lol: :lol:

Reading this who thread is cracking me up.

I love the return to 'how did the children get into the water'

Answer - when the boat sank! Which was not what the PM first claimed - he claimed they were thrown overboard with no sinking boat and that 'we don't want these sort of people in the country'. The PM lied about the children being thrown overboard - the lie is the key issue.

It is a very simple concept to grasp :?
 

JK

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5,549
Willow said:
^ Pando said:
Willow said:
To your credit, you've tried harder than Pando who hasn't offered anything to back up his claims.

What claims would they be?
You claim that children were thrown overboard.
You claim SIEV 4 was sabotaged
You claim the Chief of the Defence report isn't credible.
You claim that the Commander of the Adelaide's account isn't worthy because he is an officer.
You claim that ‘non-officer’ Laura Whittle's story is a complete fabrication.

We should remember that the whole notion that children were thrown overboard was designed to demonise the boat people. It conjured up images of children being tossed into the sea with no regard for their wellbeing, as opposed to them simply getting wet as they made their way to safety.

The government seized upon this with Minister Peter Reith showing pictures on national TV.
Prime Minister John Howard was also quick to demonise the boat people.

It later emerged that no children were thrown overboard and that Peter Reith's pictures were of a different event.

A breakdown in communication? The Department and the Navy getting their wires crossed? Perhaps.
The PM certainly blamed it on poor information he says he received early in the piece.

Once the dust had settled, there was no one left who believed that children were thrown overboard… and that it was a rescue situation with the Siev 4 sinking.

To continue saying that children were thrown overboard will put you at odds with even the PM himself.

The bone of contention is whether or not the PM knew the facts earlier than he has claimed.
Mr Scrafton claims that the PM did know the facts beforehand and has effectively charged Mr Howard with lying to the Australian people.

Good summary - could have used even more sources of information about the lies and cover-up but the detail is obviously overwelming to the Right.
 

JK

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5,549
millersnose said:
so indonesia is putting boat people in ovens then rex

They have no life at all in indonesia.

As pointed out before in Indonesia children sell plastic scavenged in garbage dumps to survive.

Indonesia are not signatories to this international treaty.

Bringing up Indonesia and ignoring the entire point of the thread - which I remind you is allegations of Howard lying - is not painting your ability to argue your point of view very well.

Make a sensible contribution about the issue Miller. I dare ya ;-)
 

Anonymous

Juniors
Messages
46
^ Pando said:
Willow said:
You claim that the Commander of the Adelaide's account isn't worthy because he is an officer..

Yep. Officers are brain dead, the whole lot of them. :lol:
Really?
I didn't know that members of the Australian armed forces are an ill-disciplined rabble.
 

millersnose

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65,223
JK said:
millersnose said:
so indonesia is putting boat people in ovens then rex

They have no life at all in indonesia.

As pointed out before in Indonesia children sell plastic scavenged in garbage dumps to survive.

Indonesia are not signatories to this international treaty.

Bringing up Indonesia and ignoring the entire point of the thread - which I remind you is allegations of Howard lying - is not painting your ability to argue your point of view very well.

Make a sensible contribution about the issue Miller. I dare ya ;-)


a legitimate rebuttal to rex's post

unless of course you compare the jews escaping nazi ovens to economic refugees
 

JK

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5,549
To use the term 'economic refugees' avoids the reason they left iraq/afghanistan in the first place.

And it also ignores the question of why would you forage in garbage in a non-existant queue when you can apply in a signatory nation.

All of which ignores Howards lies 8)
 

0neye

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5,524
I think the ALP are lying about when they new Johnny was being mislead or misinfromed. :clap: :clap: :clap:
 

millersnose

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65,223
JK said:
To use the term 'economic refugees' avoids the reason they left iraq/afghanistan in the first place.

but not the reason they left indonesia in the first place


And it also ignores the question of why would you forage in garbage in a non-existant queue when you can apply in a signatory nation.

All of which ignores Howards lies 8)

non existant queue?

lol

"The number of PV applications received has been falling in recent years. In 2001-02 the figure was 8,435 and in 2002-03, the figure was 4,900.


In 2001-02 there were 750 Permanent Protection Visas and 3196 Temporary Protection Visas granted following DIMIA or RRT decisions. In 2002-03, reflecting the decline in workload, there were 616 Permanent Protection Visas and 266 Temporary Protection Visas granted following DIMIA or RRT decisions."





and here is an interesting snippett for the lefties

"Australia is one of 142 signatory countries to the United Nations 1951 Convention and 1967 Protocol relating to the Status of Refugees.

The Convention does not oblige signatory countries to provide protection to people who do not fear persecution and have left their country of nationality or residence on the basis of war, famine, environmental collapse or in order to seek a better life for themselves or their family.
"

http://www.immi.gov.au/facts/61asylum.htm
 
Messages
15,203
"Australia is one of 142 signatory countries to the United Nations 1951 Convention and 1967 Protocol relating to the Status of Refugees.
142!!

I'd be very interested to get the whole list
Cant find it on the web though, anyone got any more info?
 

millersnose

Post Whore
Messages
65,223
selective reporting

here is text from the official senate report on the incidents

Page 4
ENCLOSURE 1HMAS ADELAIDEHMAS ADELAIDE was involved in SIEV 04 in vicinity of Christmas Island 7-10 Oct 01.No child, repeat no child was actually ever dropped or thrown overboard. A small child was threatened only, repeat threatened only, to be dropped or thrown overboard. Summary details are:a. 7 Oct 01b. Child held over the sidec. SIEV 04d. Timings are from ships log.0502(G) - having been boarded, it was reported that some SUNC’s were threatening tojump overboard from SIEV 04.0508(G) - one SUNC jumped overboard and was recovered by ADELAIDE RHIB.(SITREP eight – HMAS ADELAIDE 062200z OCT 01 refers).0543 (G) - 0609(G) 13 SUNC’s then jumped overboard in several waves shortly aftersunrise 7 Oct 01 (SITREP nine – HMAS ADELAIDE 062300z OCT 01 refers). Mostwore lifejackets though some discarded these. All were recovered by ADELAIDERHIB and all were returned to SIEV 04. One of the overboards was a young male,possibly a teenager, though opinion (not fact) on his actual age varied from 13-15 to 18- 22. All were males.Approx 0600(G) - During these man-overboard incidents a man took a child agedapprox five (5) years and dressed her in a lifejacket. He then took her to the SIEVsSTBD side (aft coach house/superstructure) and held her up and outboard over theguardrail. The RHIB was instructed to intervene. A verbal exchange with the RHIBcrew, other SUNC’s and the man took place, and the child was then taken back inboardby the man, subsequently assisted by the boarding party. It was assessed at the time thatthe man’s intent was to throw the child overboard as the RHIB was initially not in placeand secondly, the height from the coach house was too great to safely pass the child intothe boat. The Boarding Party regained control of the situation and the child was takenbelow deck.Approx 0739(G) - there was one more adult male overboard (total now 15) - he wassubsequently recovered by the RHIB (ADELAIDE SITREP - Eleven 070030Z OCT 01refers).e. ADELAIDE 101136z OCT 01 and 110455z OCT 01 refer in detail to the sequence ofmanoverboard events. 15 sworn eyewitness statements (passed by secure Email toCJTF 639 and MCAUST on 11 Oct 01) from the ship’s company (as viewed from theship, the RHIB and the SIEV) and a COs sworn statement (HMAS ADELAIDEADA/I3M 110330z OCT 01 refers) were provided. Throughout ADELAIDE had a fullview of the SIEVs port side and aft from less than approximately 200 yards and theRHIB and boarding party had a close view of the STBD side. At no stage, repeat no
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stage was a child recovered from the water. At no stage did the SUNC’s subsequentlyreport a missing child. After the subsequent rescue of the 223 SUNC’s from the wateron 10 Oct, the SUNC’s confirmed no one, repeat no one was missing. There was noloss of life ever reported by the SUNC’s.f.EOTS video footage and some digital stills exist as reported and passed SEPCOR.EOTS video shows a small child being held over ships side by an adult male. Digitalstills are inconclusive but show people preparing to jump and subsequently no longer inview, heads bobbing in the water in the distance, and subsequently males/youthsrecovered into the RHIB. All video and a CD of the 412 stills are held at MHQ.
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Page 6
ENCLOSURE 2HMAS ARUNTAThreats of Children being thrown overboard as follows.Incident Onea. 290511Z8Oct 01b. During disturbance in which two male adult PIIs jumped overboard, one male PIIthreatened to throw child overboardc. SIEV 07d. SIEV 07 to be escorted by ARUNTA from ASHMORE Island to IndonesianTerritorial Waters. During the passage, several incidents occurred including attemptsto set fire to vessel and attempts by PIIs to set fire to themselves, including dousingthemselves with diesel fuel.e. Statements from members of the boarding party taken and held onboard ARUNTA.f. A video of this incident (not related to the incident of 24 Oct 01 in Ashmore Lagoon)is held by MCAUST.Incident Twoa. 310231Z0-310235Z4 Oct 01b. 1 x Male SUNC threatened to throw young infant overboard. Restrained by ArmyTSE personnel onboard SIEV.c. SIEV 09 - SINAE BONTANG III.d. ARUNTA, in company with BUNBURY and GLADSTONE, intercepted SIEV 09 inthe vicinity of Ashmore Islands during the period 31 Oct – 4 Nov 01. SIEV 09 was a30-35 metre wooden vessel of small ferry like appearance. Engine was damaged byPII/Crew prior BUNBURY BP insertion. ARUNTA boarding party and TSE insertedand conducted handover from BUNBURY. Attempts to rectify defect and re-startengines repeatedly caused tension amongst PIIs and led to a series of incidents wherePII were restrained, adult PIIs jumped overboard and threatened to throw childrenoverboard .e. Statements from members of the Boarding Party and Boarding Officer taken and heldonboard ARUNTA.f. Unable to confirm Digital Imagery or Videos
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Incident Threea. 311217Z5 Oct 01b. One PII attempted to throw a child overboard, as another PII attempted to strangle achild. PIIs restrained children safe.c. SIEV 09 - SINAR BONTANG IIId. ARUNTA, in company with BUNBURY and GLADSTONE, intercepted SIEV 09 inthe vicinity of Ashmore Islands during the period 31 Oct – 4 Nov 01. SIEV 09 was a30-35 metre wooden vessel of small ferry like appearance. Engine was damaged byPII/Crew prior BUNBURY BP insertion. ARUNTA boarding party and TSE insertedand conducted handover from BUNBURY. Attempts to rectify defect and re-startengines repeatedly caused tension amongst PIIs and led to a series of incidents wherePII were restrained, adult PIIs jumped overboard and threatened to throw childrenoverboard.e. Statements from members of the boarding party and boarding officer taken and heldonboard ARUNTAf. Unable to confirm digital imagery or videos heldIncident Foura. 010851Z5 – 0108552Z Nov 01b. During a disturbance onboard, 5 male PIIs jumped overboard whilst 1 x female PIIthreatened to throw young infant overboard. Restrained by Army TSE Personnelonboard SIEVc. SIEV 09 – SINAR BONTANG IIId. ARUNTA, in company with BUNBURY and GLADSTONE, intercepted SIEV 09 inthe vicinity of Ashmore Islands during the period 31 Oct – 4 Nov 01. SIEV 09 was a30-35 metre wooden vessel of small ferry like appearance. Engine was damaged byPII/Crew prior BUNBURY BP insertion. ARUNTA boarding party and TSE insertedand conducted handover from BUNBURY. Attempts to rectify defect and re-startengines repeatedly caused tension amongst PIIs and led to a series of incidents wherePII were restrained, adult PIIs jumped overboard and threatened to throw childrenoverboard.e. Statements from members of the boarding party and boarding officer taken and heldonboard ARUNTAf. Unable to confirm digital imagery or videos
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Incident Fivea. 020739Z1 Nov 01b. PII threatened to throw children overboard if not permitted to cook own food.c. SIEV 09 – SINAR BONTANG IIId. ARUNTA, in company with BUNBURY and GLADSTONE, intercepted SIEV 09 inthe vicinity of Ashmore Islands during the period 31 Oct – 4 Nov 01. SIEV 09 was a30-35 metre wooden vessel of small ferry like appearance. Engine was damaged byPII/Crew prior BUNBURY BP insertion. ARUNTA boarding party and TSE insertedand conducted handover from BUNBURY. Attempts to rectify defect and re-startengines repeatedly caused tension amongst PIIs and led to a series of incidents wherePII were restrained, adult PIIs jumped overboard and threatened to throw childrenoverboard .e. Statements from members of the boarding party and boarding officer taken and heldonboard ARUNTAf. Unable to confirm digital imagery or videos.Note:Regret inability to confirm status of imagery or video as all key ARUNTAPersonnel AOD undertaking PWT. Will forward follow up signal ASAP.
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ENCLOSURE 3HMAS WARRAMUNGADuring boarding operations in vicinity of Ashmore Island (AI) of SIEV 03 the boardingofficer, LCDR Gregg, witnessed one young child (approx age 2-3 years) being heldoutboard by a female PII.Details as follows:a. 12 Sep 01 at 1824(I/K)b.Threatened b. SIEV 03 (KM SUMBER BAHAGIA)c. Following is extract of statement by LCDR Gregg – Quote after conducting a visualsearch of both starboard and port sides of the vessel for any dangers I proceeded torequest permission from the master to board KM SUMBER BAHAGIA in both Englishand Bahasa. Permission was received from the master at 1820 but the boarding area wasdominated by male PII's. Negotiations between male PIIs and I were conducted tomove them forward of the cargo hold on the weather deck. The majority complied withthe request and embarkation of BP commenced at 1831. One female PII was seen holding a child over the side and threatening to throw the child over the side. Onembarkation of the first element of the BP the remaining male PIIs in the embarkationarea were physically moved forward with the other male PIIs. The second BP elementembarked at 1823. At 1837, I detained the vessel KM BUMBER BAHAGIA inposition 1232.7S-12306.5E, approximately 9nm inside the Australian contiguous zone,approximately 15nm South of Ashmore Island. The Master acknowledged the vesselwas being detained in Bahasa. The Department of Immigration and MulticulturalAffairs ‘notice to master and crew’ written in English and Bahasa was signed at 1920Unquote.e.Statement by LCDR Gregg was taken and passed onto AFP Rep in Darwin as part ofSIEV 03 evidence pack.g. Video or digital imagery was not taken.
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ENCLOSURE 4HMAS LEEUWINa.162000Z DEC 01b. SIEV 12c.Threatenedd.BP boarded SIEV 12 and SUNCs were initially calm. BP attempted to start SIEVengines without success. At this stage there was a sense of tension, then a report ofsmoke forward was reported. A group of young SUNCs were yelling and then moresmoke occurred from an area where fuel drums were present. At the same time a firewas lit aft. At this time the Quick Reaction Party were transferred to the SIEV toassist the BP. Also, at this time SUNCs were threatening to throw children over theside. These threats were intimated by taking children to side of SIEV anddemonstrating intent to drop children into the sea.e.No statements held.f.No digital imagery or vidoes held of this incident.
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ENCLOSURE 5HMAS WOLLONGONGa. 081650 (I/K Nov 01)b.Not observedb. SIEV 10 – SUMBER LESTARId.As a result of the torching and subsequent sinking of SIEV 10 by PII’s, 33 childrenunder the age of 12 were recovered from the water by WOLLONGONG and ACVARNHEM BAY crew. During the incident, PII’s were abandoning ship en masse.Some children were observed being held by adults as they entered the water. Themethod of entry into the water by the remaining children cannot be determined.Members of WOLLONGONG Boarding party do not recall any person physicallydropping or throwing a child overboard. Worthy to note that WOLLONGONG andARNHEM BAY recovered several children without parents in attendance andconducted boat transfers between the vessels for family reunification purposes.e.Statements recorded by CO, NO, all members of boarding party, SMET Team, and boatcrews. Copies held by CO WOLLONGONG, HQNORCOM J06 and AFP.f.No digital imagery or video of the incident exists, however still images and negatives ofgeneral SOLAS incident are held by CO WOLLONGONG.
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ENCLOSURE 6HMAS BENDIGOa. 24 Oct 01 1000 I/K (0030Z)b. [/b]Child approximately three years old was dangled over side by the arm and thendropped into water[/b].c. SIEV 07d. BENDIGO had relieved WHYALLA at Ashmore at 232300z and assumed custody ofSIEV 07. About one hour after WHYALLA departure approximately fifteen PII’sjumped overboard and started swimming away from SIEV 07. Majority of swimmerswere wearing life jackets. Three RHIBS were in the water trying to recover swimmers(one from BENDIGO and two from ACV ROEBUCK BAY). Remaining PIIs in SIEV07 gathered on STBD side of vessel yelling and screaming at men in water. One femalePII dangled a young child over the side by its arm. Other women in the area wereyelling and screaming and the child was screaming. The woman then dropped thechild into the water. One of the male PIIs in the water swam to the child and recoveredit holding it out of the water on his chest. He then returned to SIEV 07 with the childand was assisted by other PIIs to recover himself and the child from the water.e. Two statements taken from ABETW Flenley and ABBM Levi. The only two membersof boarding party who witnessed entire incident. Other members sighted child in waterbut did not witness female dropping child. Statements passed to and held by CJTF 639staff at HQNORCOM.f. Nil digital or video imagery of incident.
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ENCLOSURE 7HMAS DUBBOa. 011200Z NOV 99b.Holding children over the vessels side as BP approached. Not clear to BP whether thiswas undertaken in a threatening manner or to merely indicate that children were onboard SIEVc. HARAP AN SATUd.DUBBO conducting operations in vicinity of Ashmore Reef investigating andsubsequently boarding possible SIEV. After boarding vessel was directed to anchor atAI as propulsion plant had been sabotaged. Once vessel was at anchor a processing andmedical team was despatched and passports were found to have been thrown overboard.e.Statements were taken, whereabouts unknown (unsigned copy of CO statement held inDUBBO but does not mention incident) members of BP in North Australian Area arePOB Watkins (COMAUSNAVPBGRP) and AB Twine (DUBBO)f.No imagery
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ENCLOSURE 8HMAS BUNBURYHMAS BUNBURY has not observed any children being thrown overboard however duringSIEV 06 operations the ship’s boat crew and BP observed one child being threatened.a. 220814(I/K) 7 Oct 01b.Threatened.c.SIEV 06d.As BUNBURY Boarding Party closed to board SIEV 06 the boats crew and severalmembers of the Boarding Party observed a large male standing atop the vessel’scoachhouse. He picked up a young girl (aged 4-5 years) by one leg and held her overthe STBD side of the vessel and started yelling. The young girl appeared verydistressed. All observers noted that she had a cast on her left arm. As this occurredBUNBURY’s CBM started removing his webbing in order to enter the water after thegirl. The RHIB was ordered to board the vessel shortly afterwards and as they moved inthe man released the child. It was estimated that the child was upside down forapproximately 15-20 sec.d. Nil statements held.e.Nil ImageryNote:Incident was noted in the Ship’s Boarding Log in the handwriting of the previousCO (LCDR Michelle Miller). It is not known whether she observed the incident or noted itin the Log after the BP reported it.



here we have a stack of threats from these people to throw kids into the water

some did

destructioon of their documents and lighting the boats on fire and quite obvious attempts at scuttling the boat


IMO howard should have been even more contemptuous of these people than he was


if we treated children in such a way in australia they would be removed from us


http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cach...UNAUTHORISED+ARRIVALS+INFORMATION+"&hl=en
 

Anonymous

Juniors
Messages
46
Selective reporting indeed.

Millers, firstly, I have to ask, who are these "these people" you are referring to?
I ask because your quote lists a number of separate SIEV events.

In fact, your source says this about the SIEV 4 incident:

HMAS ADELAIDE was involved in SIEV 04 in vicinity of Christmas Island 7-10 Oct 01.No child, repeat no child was actually ever dropped or thrown overboard.
...

Throughout ADELAIDE had a fullview of the SIEVs port side and aft from less than approximately 200 yards and theRHIB and boarding party had a close view of the STBD side. At no stage, repeat no stage was a child recovered from the water.


The other events listed have nothing to do with Scrafton's claims or Howard's denials.

Your quote and link does provide further proof that no children were thrown overboard from SIEV 4. Many thanks.
 

millersnose

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65,223
i dont know willow

all i know is that these people have a modus operandi that includes document destruction, threatening harm to children, and damaging boats

even if the specific boat no children were thrown overboard it still remains plenty of other cases they were or were threatened to be

a bit like saying milat wasnt a rapist because one of his victims wasnt raped
 

millersnose

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Messages
65,223
just on scrafton willow

scrafton gave a statement to the bryant inquiry on december 24 2001.

scrafton stated that he continued to be marginally involved in events around the incident until the week before the election [1991] and ‘never’ had a sense that the original advice was not correct

“never had a sense that the original advice was not correct”.

so tell me when he was lying, before or after he made that statement because he can't possible be telling the truth on both occasions

if he were to give evidence in a court he wouldd be excused as an unreliable witness
 

Anonymous

Juniors
Messages
46
millersnose said:
i dont know willow

all i know is that these people have a modus operandi that includes document destruction, threatening harm to children, and damaging boats

even if the specific boat no children were thrown overboard it still remains plenty of other cases they were or were threatened to be

a bit like saying milat wasnt a rapist because one of his victims wasnt raped
lol... Milat again.
That's a bit like saying all Australians are rapists because Ivan Milat is Australian.

Do you now agree that no children were thrown overboard from SIEV 4?
 

millersnose

Post Whore
Messages
65,223
i dont know - probably not - there were people in the water though

do you agree children on these boats were regularly threatened to be thrown overboard?

do you agree sabotaging boats was a popular method with these people
 

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