The Children Overboard issue develops

[Anonymous]

Do you now agree that no children were thrown overboard from SIEV 4?

i dont know - probably not - there were people in the water though

do you agree children on these boats were regularly threatened to be thrown overboard?

do you agree sabotaging boats was a popular method with these people

I don't know - probably not - there were people in boats though

“never had a sense that the original advice was not correct”.

Got a link for that? There's nothing in the PM Howard's statement which says that.
Howard in his webpage says "He [Scrafton] gave me a description of the video and expressed the view that it was inconclusive."

The statement quotes Scrafton as saying: "" ... that the Prime Minister rang him later that evening. He said he spoke to the Prime Minister a couple of times that evening about the tape and informed him that it was inconclusive".

On the PMs own webpage, there is that word, "inconclusive" and yet, he went public:
"I decided that the video should be released. This occurred the next day."

http://www.pm.gov.au/news/media_Releases/media_Release1074.html

 

[0neye]

But all you here form the media is Johnny is a liar

Selective reporting indeed

We need the whole story not one bit of it

THANK GOD MILLERS IS ON THE JOB

 

[tommytomlin]

I wish the guy who can't spell 'whole' or 'liar' was on our side

 

[0neye]

thanks for that spell check ;-)

 

[Jimbo]

It was tough job on a number of of levels for the sailors but they got the job done.
Are you doubting Laura Whittle's account... and why?

Not at all.

Are you doubting the other navy personnel who say they saw boats being sabotaged and children used as bargaining chips? Why?

The Miranda Devine article was a column which quoted the view of a Liberal politician, who's quotes should be treated with caution. Even Miranda said that.

Not quite.

Brandis's information should be treated with caution, as it is based on reports given to the inquiry of what navy personnel thought they saw in the heat of the moment. But it does reveal a "pattern of conduct" by boat people and people smugglers which includes sabotage of their boats.

Devine is quoting from an official report from a Government Senator. She only advises conservatism because the information comes from personnel who were obviously shocked by what they saw.

It is ambiguous and designed to appeal to the lowest elements of pub talk.

As I said, it's an official report from a Government Senator. Hardly 'pub talk' :lol:

Or can we just assume the Senator is a liar too, because he's a Liberal?

It can be countered by other opinion pieces

Such as?

I'm going skiing tomorrow, so you've got three whole days to come up with a decent response. Good luck ;-)

Jimbo,
Those charges of scuttling and kids being thrown overboard are from early accounts and were later shown to be an overreaction from a few who were caught up in the 'heat of the moment'.

Even Miranda Devine's column, with all it's ambiguity, says that information should be taken with caution.

If you read the full report it will explain how the CDF eventually got to the bottom of what actually happened. It's far more credible than that trash you're reading.

I knew you'd rush it. You should have taken a bit more time ;-)

The Senator's report details sabotage, a child being dropped overboard and many more being used as pawns. Is the Senator a liar too?

It seems that the left's position is that it's okay for 67 children to be put in a life-threatening situation as long as they are not physically dropped overboard...

Do you guys really think that these people have never dropped children overboard just because there are doubts that it happened on SIEV 4?

 

[_Johnsy]

all i know is that these people have a modus operandi that includes document destruction, threatening harm to children, and damaging boats

Any proof of this claim millers ? :roll:

 

[Jimbo]

Senator's report :arrow:

 

[Anonymous]

I agree Jimbo... read the senate report. And while you're at it, read the CDF report again. It shows that no children were thrown overboard from SIEV 4. There is no mention of sabotage of SIEV 4.

Is the Senator a liar too?

Senator Brandi lying? How would I know? Show me his full appendix and we'll have a look at it. So far, you've given us nothing other than an opiniated article from Miranda Devine.

Senator Faulkner thinks Howard is lying: "If only Mr Howard would tell the truth to the Australian people and what he knows about this."

Is Faulkner wrong? Or is it only Liberal Senators who don't have a political agenda here?

All you're doing is dragging up selective snippets from Miranda Devine's article. What's next? Piers Ackerman?

btw, Millers has kindly posted a senate report for us.

This part in particular should be of interest:
HMAS ADELAIDE was involved in SIEV 04 in vicinity of Christmas Island 7-10 Oct 01. No child, repeat no child was actually ever dropped or thrown overboard.

Do you guys really think that these people have never dropped children overboard just because there are doubts that it happened on SIEV 4?

Who are "these people"?

Doubts? There are no doubts. No children were thrown overboard from SIEV 4.

You do realise ofcourse that there are separate SIEV incidents which have nothing to do with Scrafton's claims....?

 

[Jimbo]

You do realise ofcourse that there are separate SIEV incidents which have nothing to do with Scrafton's claims....?

At last we can agree on something!!

Indeed there were other SIEV incidents, which are quite disturbing in nature (a child being dropped overboard, sabotage). It seems you lefties are prepared to ignore these though, because the porn fan isn't questioning them.

So to summarise the left's position:

- No children were thrown overboard from SIEV 4, therefore no child has ever been thrown from a SIEV
- Reports of sabotage attempts on SIEV 4 made by Navy personnel should be disregarded because they didn't like what they saw
- Mr Porn Weekend has more credibility than Prime Minister Howard
- Since reports regarding SIEV 4 are inconclusive, it means boat people are nice, warm hearted, law abiding people and we should be laying out the welcome mat

 

[Anonymous]

That's right Jimbo... shoot the messenger.

btw, You didn't answer my other questions.

 

[Jimbo]

Which ones?

 

[Anonymous]

While there are some doubts regarding your comprehension skills, I know you can read.

 

[Jimbo]

Senator Brandi lying? How would I know? Show me his full appendix and we'll have a look at it. So far, you've given us nothing other than an opiniated article from Miranda Devine.

Millers posted the whole thing a few pages back, highlighting the references to the treatment of children and sabotage. Do you still think none of this actually happened on any of the SIEVs?

Senator Faulkner thinks Howard is lying: "If only Mr Howard would tell the truth to the Australian people and what he knows about this."

Is Faulkner wrong? Or is it only Liberal Senators who don't have a political agenda here?

Of course Faulkner thinks Howard is lying. Whose side do you think he's on? :roll:

All you're doing is dragging up selective snippets from Miranda Devine's article. What's next? Piers Ackerman?

As I said, it's all in the senate report. Just because Devine just happened to be using the same source, doesn't mean it's not credible.

btw, Millers has kindly posted a senate report for us.

This part in particular should be of interest:
HMAS ADELAIDE was involved in SIEV 04 in vicinity of Christmas Island 7-10 Oct 01. No child, repeat no child was actually ever dropped or thrown overboard.

So it never happened on any of the other SIEVs, and we should have welcomed the illegals with open arms then?

Do you guys really think that these people have never dropped children overboard just because there are doubts that it happened on SIEV 4?

Who are "these people"?

'These people' are your heroes who think it's a good idea to endanger their childrens lives for their own purposes.

 

[Anonymous]

Senator Brandi lying? How would I know? Show me his full appendix and we'll have a look at it. So far, you've given us nothing other than an opiniated article from Miranda Devine.

Millers posted the whole thing a few pages back, highlighting the references to the treatment of children and sabotage. Do you still think none of this actually happened on any of the SIEVs?

Senator Faulkner thinks Howard is lying: "If only Mr Howard would tell the truth to the Australian people and what he knows about this."

Is Faulkner wrong? Or is it only Liberal Senators who don't have a political agenda here?

Of course Faulkner thinks Howard is lying. Whose side do you think he's on? :roll:

All you're doing is dragging up selective snippets from Miranda Devine's article. What's next? Piers Ackerman?

As I said, it's all in the senate report. Just because Devine just happened to be using the same source, doesn't mean it's not credible.

btw, Millers has kindly posted a senate report for us.

This part in particular should be of interest:
HMAS ADELAIDE was involved in SIEV 04 in vicinity of Christmas Island 7-10 Oct 01. No child, repeat no child was actually ever dropped or thrown overboard.

So it never happened on any of the other SIEVs, and we should have welcomed the illegals with open arms then?

Do you guys really think that these people have never dropped children overboard just because there are doubts that it happened on SIEV 4?

Who are "these people"?

'These people' are your heroes who think it's a good idea to endanger their childrens lives for their own purposes.

Jimbo, you still didnt answer the questions.

Let's look at your above comments:

1.) Not an answer. Show me the Senator Brandi's full appendix to the senate enquiry.
Remember, it was an add-on.

2.) I asked if it is only Liberal Senators who don't have a political agenda... still no answer.

3.) Devine also questioned the credibility of the source. She said it should be treated with caution as it was said on the heat of the moment. Do you agree with her on this or not?

4.) You next point was irrelevant and ignores the relevant point I raised that no children were thrown overboard.
Do you still think children were tossed into the sea during the SIEV 4 incident?

5.) Putting words into my mouth. This is obviously getting to you. You still didnt answer my question.
I'll expand: who are "these people"? Do you believe that they are all the same... and if so, why?

 

[Moffo]

Labor senators obviously have no agendas, they are too busy stopping Liberal bills from getting through :lol:

 

[Jimbo]

1.) Not an answer. Show me the Senator Brandi's full appendix to the senate enquiry.
Remember, it was an add-on.

The full report has been posted already. You're only throwing back to it to stall for time. It won't work.

2.) I asked if it is only Liberal Senators who don't have a political agenda... still no answer.

Liberal Senators have agendas. To serve their country to the best of their ability.

As opposed to Labor, Democrat and Greens Senators, whose agenda is to stall the political process as much as possible...

3.) Devine also questioned the credibility of the source. She said it should be treated with caution as it was said on the heat of the moment. Do you agree with her on this or not?

Devine said nothing about credibility. She merely stated that those involved were in a pretty intense situation.

If she felt the source wasn't credible, she wouldn't have used it.

4.) You next point was irrelevant and ignores the relevant point I raised that no children were thrown overboard.
Do you still think children were tossed into the sea during the SIEV 4 incident?

It's inconclusive.

Do you still think no child has ever been tossed from a SIEV?

5.) Putting words into my mouth. This is obviously getting to you. You still didnt answer my question.
I'll expand: who are "these people"? Do you believe that they are all the same... and if so, why?

As I said, 'these people' are the boat people. Illegal immigrants. Child abusers. Scuttlers. Not the sort of people we want in this country.

And yes, they are all the same. They are breaking the rules.

 

[ibeme]

As opposed to Labor, Democrat and Greens Senators, whose agenda is to stall the political process as much as possible...

Bold should be replaced with non-government parties, because the coalition are no different when they're not in government.

 

[Anonymous]

As I said, 'these people' are the boat people. Illegal immigrants. Child abusers. Scuttlers. Not the sort of people we want in this country.

And yes, they are all the same. They are breaking the rules.

No they're not. They have a legal right to seek asylum. All the same? So they are all Child abusers and scuttlers? Grow up mate.

 

[Anonymous]

1.) Not an answer. Show me the Senator Brandi's full appendix to the senate enquiry.
Remember, it was an add-on.

The full report has been posted already. You're only throwing back to it to stall for time. It won't work.

Where?
Show me the link chief.
No offence but in the past, your 'sure thing' evidence has been poor to the extreme and easily dismantled. In the end, it's only you who believes it.

2.) I asked if it is only Liberal Senators who don't have a political agenda... still no answer.

Liberal Senators have agendas. To serve their country to the best of their ability.

As opposed to Labor, Democrat and Greens Senators, whose agenda is to stall the political process as much as possible...

Thanks Jimbo... you've just wrecked your argument... and I didn't have to do very much at all. :lol:

3.) Devine also questioned the credibility of the source. She said it should be treated with caution as it was said on the heat of the moment. Do you agree with her on this or not?

Devine said nothing about credibility. She merely stated that those involved were in a pretty intense situation.

If she felt the source wasn't credible, she wouldn't have used it.

bzzzzzzz. wrong again Jimbo.
From your Miranda Devine article she says:
Brandis's information should be treated with caution, as it is based on reports given to the inquiry of what navy personnel thought they saw in the heat of the moment.

http://forums.leagueunlimited.com/viewtopic.php?t=35870&highlight=

4.) You next point was irrelevant and ignores the relevant point I raised that no children were thrown overboard.
Do you still think children were tossed into the sea during the SIEV 4 incident?

It's inconclusive.

It's not inconclusive. It's written in the CDF and senate documents that no child was thrown overboard during the SIEV 4 incident.
Is the Chief of the Defence lying? Is the Commander of the Adeliade lying?

Do you still think no child has ever been tossed from a SIEV?

It's not relevant to the subject matter.
This is about SIEV 4.
No children were tossed overboard during SIEV 4.
The pictures of the event were not fair dinkum.
A lot of people believe that the PM knew all this before he said otherwise.
The PM has since acknowledged that no children were thrown overboard.
The PM blames his error on poor information received early in the piece.

5.) Putting words into my mouth. This is obviously getting to you. You still didnt answer my question.
I'll expand: who are "these people"? Do you believe that they are all the same... and if so, why?

As I said, 'these people' are the boat people. Illegal immigrants. Child abusers. Scuttlers. Not the sort of people we want in this country.

And yes, they are all the same. They are breaking the rules.

So they are all the same? Another poor excuse for an argument.
You forgot to mention they are all dirty as well.

 

[Jimbo]

"In that instance they were, it doesn't appear that they were thrown in, certainly [they] were threatened to be thrown in, and this is a practice that these people do because they know Australian sailors will react to that."

Just to clarify, the Vice Admiral's definition of 'these people' is the same as mine