The ESL

[Ryan]

juneauquan - your not measuring apples with apples.
What is the % of Australians (in the TOP grade) in the ESL as upposed to the % of Australians (in the TOP grade of soccer) who make it into the EPL?

My debate is also not about $$$ as such (whilst it is definitely the major contributing factor) - it's about the fact that the game as a whole is suffering in my opinion due to the poms inability to find and produce hard, solid International players of their own, but hammer Australian waters to find the talent.

Put it this way. How would the ESL go, if Australia had no real Rugby League game, and no players to pilfer?

Would the EPL survive? Yep. Would Baeball survive? Yep.

To be honest, it is an absolute disgrace that Matt King has to play in the ESL.

When you compare Australia to the UK in the scheme of overall sports - the theory is totally flawed. Espescially in our specific subject.

This debate is about football - the enjoyment of it. Nothing to do with immigration mate.

 

[juneauquan]

juneauquan - your not measuring apples with apples.
What is the % of Australians (in the TOP grade) in the ESL as upposed to the % of Australians (in the TOP grade of soccer) who make it into the EPL?

My debate is also not about $$$ as such (whilst it is definitely the major contributing factor) - it's about the fact that the game as a whole is suffering in my opinion due to the poms inability to find and produce hard, solid International players of their own, but hammer Australian waters to find the talent.

Put it this way. How would the ESL go, if Australia had no real Rugby League game, and no players to pilfer?

Would the EPL survive? Yep. Would Baeball survive? Yep.

To be honest, it is an absolute disgrace that Matt King has to play in the ESL.

When you compare Australia to the UK in the scheme of overall sports - the theory is totally flawed. Espescially in our specific subject.

This debate is about football - the enjoyment of it. Nothing to do with immigration mate.

So you must be happy that ESL clubs are decreasing the number of foreign born players allowed in each side then ....

You also must be a staunch advocate for expansion in the NRL and ESL.

You also must agree that the quality of the ESL has gone up through the years and if they have the money to get some of the best Australian talent then they have every right to do so (to improve their competition) because the end aim in all this is for them to have the premier competition.

Maybe, just maybe ESL administrator's are better than NRL administrator's.

But for every Joe Blow that goes from NRL to ESL another Joe Blow comes up through the ranks. It is a shame that some of these players are leaving the NRL, BUT if it helps the ESL to become a great competition then I am all for it because that can only mean better England/Great Britain international teams in the future and that is VERY IMPORTANT FOR THE FUTURE OF OUR CODE!

You see, I love this great game of ours and I honestly believe that only good can come out of all these players leaving our shores for the ESL. But you can remain short-sighted in your views. That's okay, that's your prerogative.

 

[Ryan]

So you must be happy that ESL clubs are decreasing the number of foreign born players allowed in each side then ....

You also must be a staunch advocate for expansion in the NRL and ESL.

You also must agree that the quality of the ESL has gone up through the years and if they have the money to get some of the best Australian talent then they have every right to do so (to improve their competition) because the end aim in all this is for them to have the premier competition.

Maybe, just maybe ESL administrator's are better than NRL administrator's.

But for every Joe Blow that goes from NRL to ESL another Joe Blow comes up through the ranks. It is a shame that some of these players are leaving the NRL, BUT if it helps the ESL to become a great competition then I am all for it because that can only mean better England/Great Britain international teams in the future and that is VERY IMPORTANT FOR THE FUTURE OF OUR CODE!

You see, I love this great game of ours and I honestly believe that only good can come out of all these players leaving our shores for the ESL. But you can remain short-sighted in your views. That's okay, that's your prerogative.

You make very valid, and good points juneauquan. I don't think I'm being narrow minded though. Here it is.

If the UK were a rugby league powerhouse, more of the kids in the UK would want to play for them. More kids would want to enter the game. All these kids currently see, is their so called stars getting embarrassed consistently. To get the Greg Inglis's, Mark Gasnier's, Steve Menzies and co. type players, you need a hell of a lot of sub standard players coming through. The good one's and the poor one's are weeded out. I don't think the UK game is strong enough to have a junior network to that of Australia and NZ. It's a slow process. Years and years ago...the poms WERE a threat. Now, the "Super League" loook for quick stars - quick fixes to get quick income - at the expense of that slow - internal building process. Their kids are missing out on true development - their international quality is poor and reducing, and it's all because of these ones --------> $$$$$

BUT, if they took the time to harness, develop, and look after their own, and actually had some International success, more kids would want to play, meaning more Greg Inglis, Marks Gasnier, Darren Lockyers and co. may come through their OWN populace. It wouldn't happen overnight - but would definitely eventually happen.

For these reasons, I say we have a better game, a better development system etc etc etc. Their game could survive a few years of not purchasing Australian talent, and giving their own boys a go, but because of the $$$, they want OUR elite, so that theor quick $$$ on the bottom line is better.

It's horse and cart stuff...and their long term business plan sucks.

 

[juneauquan]

You make very valid, and good points juneauquan. I don't think I'm being narrow minded though. Here it is.

If the UK were a rugby league powerhouse, more of the kids in the UK would want to play for them. More kids would want to enter the game. All these kids currently see, is their so called stars getting embarrassed consistently. To get the Greg Inglis's, Mark Gasnier's, Steve Menzies and co. type players, you need a hell of a lot of sub standard players coming through. The good one's and the poor one's are weeded out. I don't think the UK game is strong enough to have a junior network to that of Australia and NZ. It's a slow process. Years and years ago...the poms WERE a threat. Now, the "Super League" loook for quick stars - quick fixes to get quick income - at the expense of that slow - internal building process. Their kids are missing out on true development - their international quality is poor and reducing, and it's all because of these ones --------> $$$$$

BUT, if they took the time to harness, develop, and look after their own, and actually had some International success, more kids would want to play, meaning more Greg Inglis, Marks Gasnier, Darren Lockyers and co. may come through their OWN populace. It wouldn't happen overnight - but would definitely eventually happen.

For these reasons, I say we have a better game, a better development system etc etc etc. Their game could survive a few years of not purchasing Australian talent, and giving their own boys a go, but because of the $$$, they want OUR elite, so that theor quick $$$ on the bottom line is better.

It's horse and cart stuff...and their long term business plan sucks.

I don't think their long-term business plan sucks at all.

Better players = greater exposure = greater money.

That is already happening now. ESL TV ratings and attendences and I assume merchandise and other stuff is going through the roof. The ESL is expanding in 2009 with the Celtic Crusaders and Toulousse strong contenders among the three new invitees. As I said before, they are decreasing the amount of foreign born players in each team. Everything points to a very strong ESL in the future.

They have a plan and possibly a part of that plan is to get great Australian talent to compliment their up and coming players (I mean their cupboards aren't bare at all).

They believe, if you play against the best you become the best. That is the key point here. Better Australian talent coming in = better competition = better home grown players.

There is no doubt whatsoever the ESL long term plan is WAY better than the NRL long term plan (simply because I have no idea what the NRL plan is)

 

[Perth Red]

FACT is England does not have the number of kids playing the game (due to Soccer being the dominant sport in the country) or the money to finance junior programmes (due to Pokies and Leagues clubs not existing there), or the immigration of naturally gifted and shaped islanders (due to not being in the pacific region!). Easy to say they should be bringing more talent through like Australia does but reality is they do not have the advantages we have here. They are moving in the right direction and in 10 years time their strategy and planning will bear great fruit. probably just about the same time the NRL suffers the most due to poor income, no expansion and growing competition from other sports!

 

[ali]

I agree with those who are saying the English are moving in the right direction, in fact I'm far more confident about the future of the game in England than I am of the current admin in Australia.

Ryan, the English are starting with a far lower player base. The reasons are many. Australian style junior development has never been high on the agenda until recently, at least it hasn't bene until the turn of the century. The fact that there was always an ample supply of mostly Welsh talent ready to switch (up until 1995) from Union probably hasn't helped either. The lack of depth in the English RL scene was shown up massively when the majority these guys switched back to union in 95, 96 and 97, and the Aussies and Kiwis hadn't come to replace them yet. Just look at the 97 World Club Challenge scores.

But the fact is they are coming from a limited population base where the game is genuinely popular. If you did the sums of all the proper RL towns, you'd come out with a population less than NSW and QLD, and even then you'd say RL is probably still less popular overall in these towns than NSW and QLD.

However, this is all history and I'm very confident in the future. Union going professional has meant RL can now be played in the armed forces and Universities, plus Union players are no longer banned for life from their game for stepping foot on an amateur RL field. This has meant an explosion of new Rugby League clubs across the country, something like 100 new clubs in non traditional RL areas. These have mostly concentrated on senior sides, but now most are doing some sort of junior development.

Backed by an army of RFL (ARL / AFL style) development officers there will be an mass emergence of non heartland players in the very near future. Harlequins in London currently have 4 young southerners playing regularly in first grade. Louis Mcarthey Scarsbrook was being talked up as a bolter for England's World Cup squad before he broke his arm. There are now 18 junior clubs in London, some such as South London Storm are very successful. Most run teams at under 13, 14, 15 and 16 level. Some are now branching into even younger age groups.

Furthermore through the work of the development officers the number of schools entering the national knock-out competition is growing at an incredible rate, possibly 20-30% a year, I forget.

RL in the UK still faces discrimination in private schools and a southern national media bias against it, but through a more Australian approach to junior development over the last 5 or 6 years and a big increase in funding from sport England for grass routes development, I am very confident things are heading in the right direction.

I also think they will do quite well in this coming world cup, as Leeds and Saints are dominating over here at the moment with sides dominated mostly by English players. They are the 2 most English clubs in the comp, and look the best 2 on current form. Tony Smith will get them playing in a traditional English manner, throwing the ball around and off loading at will. It will be interesting to see this up against the size and strength of the Polynesian dominated southern hemisphere teams who will play in a more conservative manner.

 

[Ryan]

Wow ali - great response mate. You definitely know your League over their in the UK !! Kudos for that man !

I guess my frustrations stem from this right. Everybody is saying that we have a plethora of players playing in the NFL, NHL, EPL, ESL, etc etc etc, and that I'm being narrow minded. But I put it to you like this:-

Which of the following sports would dramatically deteriorate, or even implode if every Australian was taken out of their game:-

English Premier League Soccer? No
Rugby Union (both International and local squads)? No
NHL, NFL, NBA? Most definitely not
Hockey? No
Golf? Not a team sport
Cricket? No
English Super League Rugby League? Hmmmmm?

They are totally reliant upon our product. A product a lot of you guys say is superior to ours.

So, I guess the question is, could the ESL survive if every Australian developed player was withdrawn from all of their squads?

Maybe so, but there would be a real period of absolute struggle.

 

[Brycey]

Valid points Ryan, but still debatable.

Look at Leeds for example...last years premiers...dominating this year. How many Aussies do they have in their squad?? 1

Scott Donald.

2 kiwis in Toopi and Webb. After that its all Poms with one Frenchie.

 

[Ryan]

Valid points Ryan, but still debatable.

Look at Leeds for example...last years premiers...dominating this year. How many Aussies do they have in their squad?? 1

Scott Donald.

2 kiwis in Toopi and Webb. After that its all Poms with one Frenchie.

Mate - that's 3 from 17 right? I assume the NZ players were developed through the Aust / NZ network - so we are talking 18% of their 1st grade team, and they are probably one of the better teams to inject their youth into the game.

This thread has probably tunred me from putting the ESL down (I reckon they ARE trying reading a lot of your views - Leeds for example), but to a point that I feel some changes are required for them to be an International force once again.

I think that out of a squad of 25 - 2 players only should be non English developed players. Not because of short sightedness. Not because of being narrow minded, but because their game may produce MORE UK players - meaning a bigger talent pool for their International selectors to choose from.

This will then have a two way effect. Only our best players in Australia would be selected, meaning WE get to develop more middle tier players into top tier players, and the UK improve their overall rate of producing potential junior internationals.

Now, this NEXT comment is totally selfish (and an example only), but I almost think an exchange program could be introduced. They take Michael Monaghan for example, in return Manly get a young British player that has heaps of potential that could toughen up in OUR competition, and make a return, maybe in a UK International jersey?

Therefore, both codes improve, fans are happier (I know I have an affinity with my Manly players - and hate to see ANY of them leave), the International game improves - and the game overall is better for it?

I don't know - that's way out there - but it's a suggestion.

 

[Ryan]

By the way guys - this has turned into a great debate.

 

[Brycey]

Thats out of a squad of 35 mate - all in all they have 6 non-english players. But you're right in saying that those 6 would be making the top 17.

I agree that they have to further restrict the amount of non-english players, imo to about 3. I dont know how a trade off would work, but its a good point.

Not only to develop RL more in UK, but internationally I think we need a world-wide developing countries player draft.

Put players from developing RL countries into a pool (not literally) and have ESL and NRL buy them and count nil towards their cap. The great thing is it would able a lot of union players from countries that arent league strong to come play in major competition while still pledging alliegiance to their countries.

You could field a lot stronger Irish, Scottish, American, Russian, and Welsh teams in RL.

 

[ali]

Wow ali - great response mate. You definitely know your League over their in the UK !! Kudos for that man !

I guess my frustrations stem from this right. Everybody is saying that we have a plethora of players playing in the NFL, NHL, EPL, ESL, etc etc etc, and that I'm being narrow minded. But I put it to you like this:-

Which of the following sports would dramatically deteriorate, or even implode if every Australian was taken out of their game:-

English Premier League Soccer? No
Rugby Union (both International and local squads)? No
NHL, NFL, NBA? Most definitely not
Hockey? No
Golf? Not a team sport
Cricket? No
English Super League Rugby League? Hmmmmm?

They are totally reliant upon our product. A product a lot of you guys say is superior to ours.

So, I guess the question is, could the ESL survive if every Australian developed player was withdrawn from all of their squads?

Maybe so, but there would be a real period of absolute struggle.

I'm not sure what would happen if all Aussies and Kiwis were suddenly banned from Super League. I think it might make marketing hard work in the short term, but in the long run the clubs would survive. They've survived 100 years and i can't see a reason why they wouldn't adapt.

You've got to remember though on the back of the Sky contract and these high profile imports, average crowds for the Super League have nearly doubled since inception. It may not be the best thing for the NRL to lose all these players, but it has brought about some equilibrium to the world of Rugby League. Financially and on the field Super League clubs can now more than compete with the NRL clubs, and at least this is keeping the NRL on it's toes.

And Super League has had to lift it's game in light of the very wealthy English and French Union clubs over here. Super League needs to grow or more players will follow the likes of Vainokolo, Henry Fa'afili, Shontayne Hape (very soon), David Vaeleki (this was on the cards before Manly) & Chris Ashton to Union. Others have flirted with the game with varied success or decided they didn't like and came back. I am little concerned about this back door route from NRL to Union via Super League. There is a definite trend developing here.

Some of the same reasons I've given for England not developing juniors apply to the spread of International RL, and hence a RL world dominated by Aussies. With the game being banned in the British Armed forces and Universities, it was very hard to spread in the same manner of other sports.

On a slightly related note, players from developing European RL nations are salary cap exempt. Another example of the fine leadership coming from Richard Lewis and the RFL at the moment. This will hopefully lead to other player streams for the Super League down the track. By adding Catalans they've also added around 10 Super League standard Frenchmen that weren't around prior to Les Catalans entry.

If the RFL do the right thing and add Toulouse and or Celtic Crusaders to Super League for 2009 there will be more short term pain for the NRL. (Though it would probably be no different short term if Salford or Widnes got in) However I think within 3 or so years both these clubs will have developed up to 10 locals of Super League standard, hence adding potentially 20 new players in the pool of players good enough to play first grade RL. The RFL know the problems and there is no shortage of people over here telling them to reduce the number of imports and give English talent a chance. That is what scrapping of relegation is all about, so clubs don't go for the short term antipodean fix if they are in relegation trouble. A reduction in the quota is happening, as has been pointed out in this thread. With the exchange rate turning around and the import quota going down drastically in the next couple of years, I think the NRL will pick up in strength again.

 

[In-goal]

Great post Ali, your point about the development at Les Cats is very true, who would have thought that there would be so many in the squad only 3 seasons in.

What most Australian's don't realise is that RL is a game played by towns across the North of England, some in Australia would beleive that the game is massive in Manchester and the like.

For the continued development of the game the most important areas have to be for sheer size are London, Hull and the Leeds-Bradford area. The RFL have been very srewd under the guidance of R.Lewis, and the flow on effect can be seen all over.

The growth of the game has been fantastic, although the appeal of the lions has some what diminished since the tours of 90 and 94. This is most likley due to the SL war in Australia and the ongoing success of the Kangaroos.

Anyway, I hopefull that Les Cats will be joined next season by Tolouse and perhaps CC a few seasons later.

 

[Billythekid]

Mate - that's 3 from 17 right? I assume the NZ players were developed through the Aust / NZ network - so we are talking 18% of their 1st grade team, and they are probably one of the better teams to inject their youth into the game.

Mate you are using a double standard. How about we look at what would happen to the NRL tomorrow if we pulled out all the kiwis/islander players. Where would we be?

 

[Ryan]

I don't know Billy. I thought NZ and Australia come under the same umbrella (that's why I included them in the NRL mix). I do know the NRL provides the Warriors with a $4,000,000 annual grant (or something similar) - paid monthly.
I think their $$$ injected into the junior ranks is specifically in order for the to play in the NRL. I actually wouldn't even mind a 2nd NZ team, but don't know if it would be financially viable.

Ali, mate, I wasn't actually aware prior to your comments that there is to be a reduction in foreign players in their teams - that's a fantastic step. But more importantly, I didn't realize the relegation system was being made defunct - as that will certainly squash some of the "quick fix" scenario's you were talking about.

Hmmm, maybe the UK ARE taking the steps, or trying to make the required steps to improve things for the game over there.

I guess I'm a little old school, and think more about the game from a fans perspective as upposed to a business unit. I will always love and respect players like Steve Menzies, and unfortunately, with business and money to be made, players like him will certainly be a dying breed.

Like I said though - from a fans perspective (you all know I support Manly), I would be gutted for Storm fans if Hoffman and King both end up in the ESL. Thye should be the main stayers at their club. They are the type of players the club can build itself around.

To that end, I think there needs to be a serious look at the discounts in salary cap a player can get for tenure. I also think more compensations should be made for players who were juniors with their own club. Example - and again I use Menzies - he shouldn't count in the salary cap at all. Same goes for players like Nathan Hindmarsh, Darren Lockyer & co. so more can be invested into the development and retention of a clubs middle tier players, so that we don't lose good players like M Gaffa, Brent Webb and co.

 

[Perth Red]

Biggest concern for me is that with the changes and the advancements of the ESL alongside the static NRL salary cap we may see even more top talent head over there. At the moment the majoirty of NRL players signed are squad men with the odd rep standard player. With less to choose from and more money to spend I can see more and more rep players being enticed over. This will be great for the ESL as who wouldn't want the best players in the world playing in your comp but could further weaken the NRL.

 

[ali]

Interesting to see my fears of French and English Union clubs becoming a threat appear to be on the money RE Gasnier. If the RLIF was to block all players moving from the NRL to Super League I think we'd just find more ending up in Union. The NRL needs to pick up it's game!

Ryan, I just tried google to find out the quota details. This is the closest I could get, but it looks like all clubs need to have 20 home grown players and no more than 5 home grown players in their squad by 2011.

I wonder if this will lead to a trend of Super league clubs signing up teenage stars from the NRL or lower levels of the game.
http://www.totalrl.com/sl/index.php?feat_id=200

Cultivating British stars
Fri 29 Jun 2007
When the new Great Britain coach Tony Smith sat down recently to select his side for last week's Test match against France at Headingley, he was faced with a problem. There were hardly any British centres he could select.
If you look at the game's leading clubs, you'll see that the leading centres are nearly all overseas players.
Smith was faced with having to select two centres from Keith Senior (Leeds), Kirk Yeaman (Hull), Martin Gleeson and Paul Johnson (Warrington), Paul Sykes (Harlequins), Ryan Atkins (Wakefield) and Jon Goddard (Hull KR), some of whom were unavailable through injury, and some of whom Smith wanted to rest.
If Smith had been selecting a team of overseas players to turn out against Great Britain, his selection options would have been superb.
If they were all fit he would have been able to choose from Matt Gidley (Australian) and Willie Talau (New Zealander) at St Helens; Clinton Toopi (NZ) at Leeds; Ben Harris (A), Shontayne Hape (NZ) and James Evans (A) at Bradford; David Vaealiki (NZ) and Phil Bailey (A) at Wigan; Sid Domic (A) at Hull FC; Luke Dyer (A) at Hull KR; Chris Nero and Jamahl Lolesi at Huddersfield; Kevin McGuinness (A) and Aaron Moule (A) at Salford; Tyrone Smith (NZ) at Harlequins; and Jason Demetriou at Wakefield.
Those two lists, and their heavy bias in favour of overseas players (7 British and 16 overseas players), tells you why the Super League clubs last week took the first steps in trying to cut down the number of overseas players in Super League.
From now on the clubs have to recruit into their squads a growing number of players who have come through their own, or other Super League clubs' Academy systems.
What they have decided upon is quite complex, and was summarised in 'Rugby League Express' last Monday.
But there is one thing that surprised me about the new rules, and that is that the RFL has increased the overseas quota from three players to five from next season.
If we are trying to reduce the number of overseas players in Super League, increasing the quota for the next five years hardly seems to be the best way to go about it.
We have already seen our Super League clubs signing up leading Australian stars for next season in droves, and yet I suspect we've really seen nothing yet.
By 2011 the clubs will be able to have no more than five players on their books who have been trained overseas. What that means is that those players served their time between ages of 15 and 21 to all intents and purposes with an NRL club.
The remaining 20 players in a club's 25-man squad will have been trained by a Super League club, so we can suppose that almost all those players, apart from a small number who may have been recruited as Academy players from overseas, will qualify to play for one of the home nations.
By then Tony Smith should have a much greater number of players to choose from in all positions, not just in the centres.
If so, then the changes will have been well worth it.

 

[ali]

Here's another! It appears the RFL are on the ball here, so much so that Richard Lewis is advising the Football Association on how to improve the number of English players coming through in soccer. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2008/01/24/sfnbon124.xml

From the start of this year's Super League season, clubs will have to ensure their 25-man squads include no more than 10 foreign players. That number falls to five by 2011.
At the same time, teams must pick five players who have come through their academy and 10 trained in the UK. By 2011 the number of academy-trained players jumps to eight, with the quota of UK-trained players increased to 12.

 

[Johnny_L_O]

Leeds ( the leading ESL team ) played in the Challenge Cup today and beat Harlequins away. This was the team that Leeds put out. It goes position, name (age), previous club, nationality...


FB - Ben Jones Bishop (19)- Leeds Academy - English
WG - Scott Donald (28)- Manly - Australian
CR - Kallum Watkins (17) - Leeds Academy - English
CR - Keith Senior (32) - Sheffield - English
WG - Ryan Hall (20) - Leeds Academy - English
5/8 - Danny McGuire (25) - Leeds Academy - English
HB - Rob Burrow (25) - Leeds Academy - English
P - Kylie Leuluai (30) - Manly - Kiwi
Hk - Jordan Tansey (21) - Leeds Academy - English
P - Nick Scruton (23) - Leeds Academy - English
SR - Jamie Peacock (30) - Bradford - English
SR - Carl Ablett (22) - Leeds Academy - English
L - Kevin Sinfield (27) - Leeds Academy - English

I - Matt Diskin (26) - Leeds Academy - English
I - Gaz Ellis (27) - Wakefield - English
I - Danny Allen (18) - Leeds Academy - English
I - Simon Worrall (23) - Leeds Academy - English

The average age of this team is 23 years old. There are 15 English players, 1 Australian and 1 Kiwi. The Aussie (Scott Donald) is the leading try scorer in the ESL this season with 13 tries in 13 games. The Kiwi had developed into one of the strongest props in the league under Brian McClennan and is no longer a 15 minute spell battering ram.

What this shows is that there is the talent in the UK. It just needs to be found and brought on. Something Leeds are very good at. Also Leeds Reserve Grade (basically an U21's comp) are unbeaten and are full of 16-18 year olds due to the fact that 7 or 8 of the usual reserve grade have had to play FG this season.

The rest of Leeds Injured squad are:

Brent Webb (international duty) - NZ Warriors - Kiwi
Lee Smith (inj, 1st choice right wing, 21yo) - Leeds Academy
Clinton Toopi (inj, 1st choice RC) - NZ Warriors - Kiwi
Ash Gibson (inj, 2nd Choice RC, 21yo) - Leeds Academy - English
Ian Kirke (inj, Interchange prop, 27yo) - York - English
Luke Burgess (inj, older bro of GB prop Sam, broke into 1st team 2 months ago, 21yo) - English
Jamie Jones Buchanan (inj, Cert for Eng WC Squad, 27yo) - English
Ali Lauitiiti (Inj, wanted by Brisbane next season, 28yo) - Kiwi
Ryan Bailey (inj, most improved player this season, 23yo) - English

7 of these 9 played in the GF last season (Burgess and Gibson didnt). This shows the strength in depth of the Leeds team that with half a team missing and in some cases 3rd of 4th choice players fitting in they have still only lost 2 games out of 16 this year.

My whole point is that there's a lot of good young British talent coming through the ranks and the foreigners in general all add something to a team. If they don't the are sent packing. Also a player who has looked pretty average this season is Matt King. Wasn't he one of the best centres in the NRL?

 

[ali]

Leeds ( the leading ESL team ) played in the Challenge Cup today and beat Harlequins away. This was the team that Leeds put out. It goes position, name (age), previous club, nationality...


FB - Ben Jones Bishop (19)- Leeds Academy - English
WG - Scott Donald (28)- Manly - Australian
CR - Kallum Watkins (17) - Leeds Academy - English
CR - Keith Senior (32) - Sheffield - English
WG - Ryan Hall (20) - Leeds Academy - English
5/8 - Danny McGuire (25) - Leeds Academy - English
HB - Rob Burrow (25) - Leeds Academy - English
P - Kylie Leuluai (30) - Manly - Kiwi
Hk - Jordan Tansey (21) - Leeds Academy - English
P - Nick Scruton (23) - Leeds Academy - English
SR - Jamie Peacock (30) - Bradford - English
SR - Carl Ablett (22) - Leeds Academy - English
L - Kevin Sinfield (27) - Leeds Academy - English

I - Matt Diskin (26) - Leeds Academy - English
I - Gaz Ellis (27) - Wakefield - English
I - Danny Allen (18) - Leeds Academy - English
I - Simon Worrall (23) - Leeds Academy - English

The average age of this team is 23 years old. There are 15 English players, 1 Australian and 1 Kiwi. The Aussie (Scott Donald) is the leading try scorer in the ESL this season with 13 tries in 13 games. The Kiwi had developed into one of the strongest props in the league under Brian McClennan and is no longer a 15 minute spell battering ram.

What this shows is that there is the talent in the UK. It just needs to be found and brought on. Something Leeds are very good at. Also Leeds Reserve Grade (basically an U21's comp) are unbeaten and are full of 16-18 year olds due to the fact that 7 or 8 of the usual reserve grade have had to play FG this season.

The rest of Leeds Injured squad are:

Brent Webb (international duty) - NZ Warriors - Kiwi
Lee Smith (inj, 1st choice right wing, 21yo) - Leeds Academy
Clinton Toopi (inj, 1st choice RC) - NZ Warriors - Kiwi
Ash Gibson (inj, 2nd Choice RC, 21yo) - Leeds Academy - English
Ian Kirke (inj, Interchange prop, 27yo) - York - English
Luke Burgess (inj, older bro of GB prop Sam, broke into 1st team 2 months ago, 21yo) - English
Jamie Jones Buchanan (inj, Cert for Eng WC Squad, 27yo) - English
Ali Lauitiiti (Inj, wanted by Brisbane next season, 28yo) - Kiwi
Ryan Bailey (inj, most improved player this season, 23yo) - English

7 of these 9 played in the GF last season (Burgess and Gibson didnt). This shows the strength in depth of the Leeds team that with half a team missing and in some cases 3rd of 4th choice players fitting in they have still only lost 2 games out of 16 this year.

My whole point is that there's a lot of good young British talent coming through the ranks and the foreigners in general all add something to a team. If they don't the are sent packing. Also a player who has looked pretty average this season is Matt King. Wasn't he one of the best centres in the NRL?

Leeds have pretty much been the leading light when it comes to junior development (or maybe junior stealing) in the UK over recent years. The biggest positive for RL yesterday I thought was the under 16 match on beforehand. Harlequins under 16's ran the might of Leeds very close. Most of these kids would have only been playing the game for 3 or 4 years, and 5 of them have joined this team straight from Union.

If they can run Leeds close then I'd suggest the standard of juniors coming out of London is definitely improving. We all know numbers in London are going up, and it's good to see the quality is going with it.

In first grade, Quins also fielded an all London raised backrow of Mike Worrincy, Tony Clubb and former Skolar Joe Mbu.