The shoulder charge debate thread

[PARRA_FAN]

^ Thank You .

This sort of thing happens occasionally. Accidents do happen.

 

[some11]

What debate?

It was banned over two years ago, move on.

 

[bileduct]

This is going to go the same way as the crusher tackle. No one will end up doing them deliberately anymore but people will still get penalised when the ball carrier turns his back into the tackle and a defender comes over the top and accidentally applies pressure to the back of the neck.

Increase the penalties for contact with the head and start sending players off.

Mason's suspension is a f**king joke.

 

[NrlCoach]

Ask James Ackermans brother how good shoulder charges are

or ask this bloke how good shoulder charges are

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpQwByUW5aQ

I feel sorry for his family but unfortunately he got hit hard and as result die. freak accidents happens

Second one was no shoulder charge but i don't blame you because the NRL doesnt know what is a SC

 

[Maximus]

Take a look at the comments on any NRL article, forum, facebook post... you are incorrect.

Any huh? And it will be 90%?

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-league/...-james-ackermans-brother-20150804-girmbn.html

80% support the ban.

http://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nrl...re-an-nrl-player/story-fn2mcuj6-1227471729055

Only 2 out of 11 openly want it back with 3-4 not giving a position. Everyone else supports the ban.

They were the first 2 articles when I searched 'James Ackerman shoulder charge'. I didn't bother going any further.

I feel like these sorts of bans are a dangerous road to go down. Where do we stop exactly? So now they have banned shoulder charges but what about other big hits? Guys like Matai, burgess, SBW etc can absolutely f*cking demolish people with or without shoulder charges. The big hits they put on people are just as powerful as the shoulder charges being banned. So do we have to ban big hits in general? Should players be able to take a run up before smashing another player? Should we also ban gang tackles which are dangerous as well?

What is it with these moronic arguments only picking one part and claiming that is why it is banned?

It is not just the force of a shoulder charge that resulted in it being banned. They also found that 17% of shoulder charges make contact with the head. If any of your examples are the same, then maybe they should be banned as well, but they aren't. Do you feel the risk that 1 in every 6 shoulder charges makes contact with head is acceptable?

They also found that something like 5% of shoulder charges resulted in an injury, while the rate for normal front on tackles was well under 1%. Do you think that is acceptable?

What currently legal tackle has those risks attached to it? If someone can find one, then you might have an argument.

Many fans have directly stated that they are spending less money on NRL because they are unhappy with the direction the game is heading in regards to contact.

Yeah and that option lost in your poll. More people either had no change, or they were more likely to spend money.

 

[adamkungl]

Yeah and that option lost in your poll. More people either had no change, or they were more likely to spend money.

Haha are you geniused?

More enthusiastic, more likely to attend games and buy things 3 6.67%

Dont care 21 46.67%

Less enthusiastic, less likely to attend games and buy things 21 46.67


Admittedly a small sample space, however..
Equally large majority said no change, or spending less.
3 people said spending more.

Seven times more people said they were spending less than those who are spending more.

How do you possibly spin that into a positive fan result for the ban?

 

[adamkungl]

As unfortunate as the James Ackerman incident was, the fact is it was literally a one in a million occurrence. It is the only time in RL history that a shoulder charge has resulted in death or serious injury.
It is a statistical anomaly.

If this legitimately scares you maybe you shouldn't drive home from work today, because there's a far higher chance of you dying in a car accident than any rugby league player dying on the field with or without the shoulder charge.

Also, "what if it was your brother/husband/son" is not a valid argument. It is emotional blackmail and is used to ignore rational argument and suppress individual freedom.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

Matai's tackling style is unlikely to make head-high contact.

An argument by Penrose Warrior.

ChrisD - a man who reads words on screens that don't exist. I said generally, big hits with arms are very unlikely to make head-high contact, and certainly less than shoulder charges. Steve Matai does not make all the tackles in the NRL.

Here, engage your brain and read the following. If you make a tackle, and do not extend your arm up to 90 deg (by definition a clothesline tackle) the likelihood of making head-high contact is minimal - unless the player you're tackling is much shorter, you jump or he ducks.

Now what lives at the top of an arm? A shoulder. You cannot manipulate your shoulder to be in any other position but the top of your arm. It generally lives at around chin height of your opponent. So any time you make a shoulder charge, there's a much higher chance it's going to inflict a head injury. It's proven, if you or anyone else don't believe the statistics well that's your prerogative.

And I was talking about Steve Matai's legal hits, not the ones that have quite rightly given him a poor judiciary record.

 

[bottle]

Please, we're not using that ridiculous LU poll that fell off the front page after a day or so as some indication of anything are we?
People cared so little that most didn't even bother to vote.

 

[Penrose Warrior]

If you're not willing to class a concussion, broken jaw or any other head injury as 'serious' then honestly, nothing but UFC will do you. Don't try to tell me Dean Young's injury a few years ago was not serious. Or that Pomeroy one, or any that knocks someone out.

Maximus gave you sense, reason and figures, and you still ignored it. Then by the looks of it you quoted a survey that was about the game in general, not the shoulder charge.

 

[adamkungl]

ChrisD - a man who reads words on screens that don't exist. I said generally, big hits with arms are very unlikely to make head-high contact, and certainly less than shoulder charges. Steve Matai does not make all the tackles in the NRL.

Here, engage your brain and read the following. If you make a tackle, and do not extend your arm up to 90 deg (by definition a clothesline tackle) the likelihood of making head-high contact is minimal - unless the player you're tackling is much shorter, you jump or he ducks.

Now what lives at the top of an arm? A shoulder. You cannot manipulate your shoulder to be in any other position but the top of your arm. It generally lives at around chin height of your opponent. So any time you make a shoulder charge, there's a much higher chance it's going to inflict a head injury. It's proven, if you or anyone else don't believe the statistics well that's your prerogative.

And I was talking about Steve Matai's legal hits, not the ones that have quite rightly given him a poor judiciary record.

People get hit in the head from legal tackles countless times every game :lol:

Even if the risk is slightly higher from a shoulder charge, the actual occurrences of head contact from legal tackles far exceed those from shoulder charges.

If head contact is unacceptable, how can we continue to allow this scenario to occur?

 

[Card Shark]

How many players from other clubs will be suspended in the coming weeks for bugger all, so that Mason isn't seen to be victimised?

 

[Perth Red]

Ask James Ackermans brother how good shoulder charges are

or ask this bloke how good shoulder charges are

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpQwByUW5aQ

If your going to use that argument then ask the families of these guys if they think we should be playing flag instead of full tackle. Its a high contact sport with high risks, its why we love to play and watch it.

http://www.goldcoastbulletin.com.au...in-ballina-match/story-fnj94ixl-1227349660218

http://www.news.com.au/national/nsw...-football-tackle/story-fndo4bst-1226622502321

 

[adamkungl]

If you're not willing to class a concussion, broken jaw or any other head injury as 'serious' then honestly, nothing but UFC will do you. Don't try to tell me Dean Young's injury a few years ago was not serious. Or that Pomeroy one, or any that knocks someone out.

Maximus gave you sense, reason and figures, and you still ignored it. Then by the looks of it you quoted a survey that was about the game in general, not the shoulder charge.

Injuries far more serious and lengthy than those happen every week, and people get knocked out every week, and broken jaws. How can you morally justify this while on the other hand banning a relatively rare occurrence? Are you pro- Shark culls, lowering all speed limits, bar lock-outs, harsher RSA? They're all slightly safer, after all. Why wouldn't we want more safety?

That survey was specifically about how fans and their money habits are effected by the NRL's safety crackdowns, I'm not sure what more you could want.

Maximus gave 15 comments from a couple of articles when there are thousands all over the internet complaining, as well as major RL personalities, players, and commentators.

I've already given my reasons for thinking the NRL statistics are utter bollocks. It is perfectly reasonable to estimate far more than 3 shoulder charges per round, the number given by the NRL report and used to justify the risks, without having to watch every single game in a season.

 

[TheVelourFog]

Haha are you geniused?

More enthusiastic, more likely to attend games and buy things 3 6.67%

Dont care 21 46.67%

Less enthusiastic, less likely to attend games and buy things 21 46.67


Admittedly a small sample space, however..
Equally large majority said no change, or spending less.
3 people said spending more.

Seven times more people said they were spending less than those who are spending more.

How do you possibly spin that into a positive fan result for the ban?

and the same amount of people didn't care

which if the poll was taken here, means you can probably double it for the wider community

 

[adamkungl]

and the same amount of people didn't care

which if the poll was taken here, means you can probably double it for the wider community

People that dont care will continue spending the same.

People that do care will spend less.

These were equal. Net result, less fans spending money. Are you thick?

I like how you only double your favourable result for the wider community.. ffs :crazy:

 

[chrisD]

ChrisD - a man who reads words on screens that don't exist.

Just so we're completely clear here, and to give you the chance to back out of your f**kwittery and so hopefully save me having to go back and quote shit.

Are you claiming that when Matai's big non-shoulder charge hits were specifically used as an example of big legal hits that impact as hard as a shoulder charge, that you did not argue in reply that such big hits are "very unlikely to make head-high contact"?

 

[Penrose Warrior]

Just so we're completely clear here, and to give you the chance to back out of your f**kwittery and so hopefully save me having to go back and quote shit.

Are you claiming that when Matai's big non-shoulder charge hits were specifically used as an example of big legal hits that impact as hard as a shoulder charge, that you did not argue in reply that such big hits are "very unlikely to make head-high contact"?

5% of all shoulder charges as opposed to <1% non-shoulder charges make contact with the head, according to research (whether you believe the moon landing was faked or not). I said legal hits were less likely to make head-high contact (or I should've) and I'm right.

 

[t-ba]

So, if a player is reasonably sure he has bit hit with the shoulder is it a good idea to lay down and wait for the video replay?

After all, it's a reportable offence which does mean it can be penalised if the ref missed it on sight?

They'd be mad not too imo, and considering how regularly Masonesque incidents happen they should now be aware of what constitutes a suspendable offence under the current regime, why not?

 

[Apey]

Can the NRL please explain to the fans and player why Mason hit was more dangerous then Pritchard shoulder charge. The shoulder charge is not banned. its only banned if you haven't got the ball on you hand. Play safety my ****

[youtube]8lBZ8FZ2SQw[/youtube]

Haha so good.

Should ban it.