goangod said:
eels2win said:
yeah, millers, you should no better than using the law as reasoning in a debate about ethics and truth. after all, women and blacks had laws against them too. but i know that's not good enough for goangod.
One of the successful strategies of the homosexual community, has been to liken their cause to feminism or civil rights movement. This is crap. The reason is simple - homosexuality is a behaviour.
However, let's assume for the moment that homosexuals are born that way (despite absolutely no proof of this whatsoever), and we should give them all the rights that heterosexuals have. If pedophiles are born that way as well - naturally attracted to children - shouldnt this natural behaviour also entitle them to rights and protctions as well?
i am of the belief that pedophiles are also "born that way", but the difference between that and homosexuality is that the act of pedophilia is wrong in itself, whereas there is nothing wrong in the act of homosexual sex between consenting adults.
so i ask you goangod, to consider this. my parents (who are possibly around your age) watched their Soviet classmates being forced to use their right hands because it was believed that being left handed was a choice and was evil. it is not so clear cut with homosexuality because apart from being born with a homosexual preference, heterosexuals, bisexuals and trisexuals (they'll "try" anything) choose to engage in homosexual acts as well.
So what?
goangod, i thought you (and others - although noone seems to have added) were perceptive enough to catch on to this argument. i am saying that it was not so long ago that left-handed people were persecuted the same way homosexuals are persecuted, for the same reason... ie. people believed that left-handed people had a choice and could not possibly be "born that way".
polygamy, in my view, can be ok (i might not engage in it myself, but who am i to stop others?). on the other hand, even though the adults in polygamy may appear to be consenting, they may be suffering from whatever it is that makes people join doomsday cults and I suggest this is why it is illegal. one difference between polygamy and homosexuality is that polygomy is always a choice whereas for homosexuals, they are homosexual even though they might prefer not to be.
I never said polygamy wasnt 'ok' - Islamic countries all over world have recognised polygamy. The issue is - we havent in the West. By allowing homosexual marriage - we are therefore fundamentally changing the way we view marriage in our society.
i'm not really following your argument on this one... is it just a resistance to change?
Homosexual marriages do not result in procreation - therefore, they should be considered equal with heterosexual marriages which have this avenue.
for what purposes should they be considered "equal"?
incest between parents (grandparents) and children is wrong because the child relies on their parents to teach them what is right or wrong and can be influenced into consenting incest (even when they reach adulthood) even though they don't really want to.
Sorry - this only your moral opinion - a value judgement. Dont impose your backward morals on me or others. Where do you get off on that? Incestous relationships can be just as loving and fulfilling as normal relationships.
and cult members can be perfectly innocent too.
Also, you are assuming here that incest involved children.
wrong, you're the one making an assumption about what you assume my assumption to be. there's a reason I included the words "(even when they reach adulthood)" in my statement.
It may not - a brother and sister who are 20 or 21 may want to marry. Incest has been around in all societies since the beginning of time. It is observable inthe animal kingdom. Just because they cant have normal kids doesntmean anything. How dare you judge these loving and committed relationships with your backward morals?
if you read my next line before posting this, you would see that my response is the same for a brother/sister relationship (or brother/brother or sister/sister relationship for that matter) as it is for a parent/child relationship.
PS. You do have a valid point though... not all incest is wrong... it's just extremely difficult to police properly, so society has said get rid of it altogether.
similar story for brothers/sisters, etc. another issue with incest is that it has medically been proven that inbreeding causes birth defects.
Ok then - so what? They just dont have kids. Its funny how you want to ban incestous marriages on the basis that they can have kids, yet you are willing to tolerate homosexual marriages which have exactly the same issue.
when did i say i wanted to ban incestuous marriages on the basis that they can have kids? I was giving you a reason why society frowns upon it which differentiates it from homosexuality. I'll spell out the difference... incest = high probability of deformed children... homosexuality = no chance of any children (unless you go into artificial insemination or adoption, but that's no different than the results of heterosexuality)
just as a point of interest, there are very few values that are universal to all religions and cultures.
e2w - you absolutely 150% incorrect on this count.
Every religion has injunctions against stealing, every religion has injunctions against murder, every religion has injunctions against lying, suicide, incest, bestiality, adultery and homosexuality.
JoeD has disputed this to some degree and from what I can see remained unchallenged. If you wish to continue holding on to this belief then please start a new thread (there's already enough issues in this one) and I'll debate it with you in there.
How is it that every culture and every race has developed these exactly the same rules?
they haven't
The reason is simple - natural law. Ie - the existence of an unwritten moral code, that is common across religions and cultures and exists merely because of our humanity.
lol... a common moral code :lol:
Additionally, does anyone know of a homosexual culture? Or any culture in the history of the human race that given homosexual marriage the same significance as heterosexual marriages?
I believe someone suggested the Romans. Or in modern times, how about the US states that do permit homosexual marriages. Or how about the multitudes of people in San Fransisco and Sydney that support the "homosexual culture".
in terms of the link between homosexuality and pedophilia, you have not proven any causal relationship. you have just provided circumstantial evidence (always wanted to say that). the only place you have tried to establish a causal link was when you said something about homosexuals having a preference for younger partners. if this is correct, does that mean that the younger partner in a homosexual relationship is generally a loser because they didn't get what they wanted?
The evidence that I have presented still stands - that homosexual men molest boys at rates grossly disproportionate to the rates at which heterosexual men molest girls
so you do not deny that you have only provided circumstantial evidence and not proof of a causal relationship?
how about you have a go at child molesters rather than having a go at homosexuals?
A study in Archives of Sexual Behavior found that homosexual men are attracted to young males. The study compared the sexual age preferences of heterosexual men, heterosexual women, homosexual men, and lesbians. The results showed that, in marked contrast to the other three categories, "all but 9 of the 48 homosexual men preferred the youngest two male age categories," which included males as young as age fifteen.
lol... what were the categories they were presented with? 15-20, 21-25?
also, were all the heterosexual men and homosexual men questioned of similar ages themselves?
· In The Gay Report, by homosexual researchers Karla Jay and Allen Young, the authors report data showing that 73 percent of homosexuals surveyed had at some time had sex with boys sixteen to nineteen years of age or younger."[37]
and what percentage of heterosexual men have had sex with girls sixteen to nineteen years of age or younger?
you see goangod, you can use stats to "prove" pretty much anything you want. i can give you a stat that shows that the average person has one testicle.
David Thorstad is a homosexual activist and historian of the gay rights movement.[48] He is a former president of New York's Gay Activists Alliance (GAA), a prototype activist group founded in December 1969. The GAA at its inception opposed age of consent laws, which prohibited adults from having sex with children.[49] Thorstad is also a pedophile and founding member of the North American Man Boy Love Association (NAMBLA).
Thorstad argues that there is a natural and undeniable connection between homosexuality and pedophilia. He expresses bitterness that the gay rights movement has, in his view, abandoned pedophilia. Thorstad writes: "Boy-lovers were involved in the gay movement from the beginning, and their presence was tolerated. Gay youth groups encouraged adults to attend their dances. . . . There was a mood of tolerance, even joy at discovering the myriad of lifestyles within the gay and lesbian subculture."[50]
Thorstad is a pedophile and an idiot, trying to bring homosexuality down with him.
in terms of the title of this thread, I think something along the lines of "the world's most tolerant nation" would be more appropriate.
Excellent- then let us 'tolerate' pedophilia and incest too.
already been through the differences.
but you get the point). And of course, not so long ago homosexuality was considered a moral outrage.
