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Thoughts on society.....

C

CanadianSteve

Guest
I'm not advocating bombing anyone for their beliefs." - Me Did I say that? I thought I was talking in broader terms. -Willow

My point is that religious differences alone don't do anyone harm. It's when people take up arms, usually for other reasons, using religion as a pretext.

But the question still remains unanswered. Clearly you will keep saying that since no answer on the side of faith or Christianiy will ever suit you.

 
C

CanadianSteve

Guest
Kier: Your shellfish and bird examples are about natural selection - gradual changes or adaptations within the same species. Clearly this has happened. But that's a far cry from one species turning into another species. That's when evolutionists fall back on the "hundreds of millions of years" bit to explain a theory that is lacking evidence of transitional forms.

I found the following on a website: Perhaps the most awkward question today for the theory of evolution is the one raised by the recently discovered p53 and since then a mutlitude of others - the DNA repair mechanism. This has been found to be common to all mammals and repairs damaged DNA. If the damage is too great to repair, it organises the cell's self-destruction. Therefore if any defect in the transcription of the genetic code arises, (the foundation on which evolution is based) then this repair or programmed cell death mechanism will remove such a mutation. If not, then the organism as a whole will die of cancer. This control system is clearly present to avoid all mutation. Thus, if this system is common to all mammals, according to the theory of Evolution, it should also be present in the common ancestors of mammals. If it were present in our ancestors, how were they able to diversify in order to render so many different species ? This is clearly a major contradiction which can only put a serious doubt on the theory of evolution.

 
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4,446
Willow, the questions were answered, whether you like the answers or not is a completely different issue

Willow: "the usual blindfolded views of the faithful. CS: As opposed to the blindfolded views of those who refuse to acknowledge the existence of God, right?"

Moffo: With all due respect, i think this highlights the attitude that you have to this debate willow mate. If you read something that you don't want to hear (or don't believe in), you will be quick off the mark to call it blindfolded or short-sighted, but what makes your views on the history of humanity so brilliant and superior?

Moffo: lol... Is that the best you can do? You didn't even try to look under the veneer.
Justice is blindfolded to any corruption. And failth is blindfolded as well. Imo, faith has to wear a blindfold so as to avoid the temptation of having that faith rocked. Read anything you like into that. But faith is blind by the mere notion that it doesnt require evidence... or so I thought.

Just because there is no evidence there faith is blind? Don't agree at all. My faith would only be rocked if irrefutable evidence came out that convinced me that my i was undoubtedly wrong. Faith is not blindfolded. In over 400 posts, not one of them has given me any reason to suggest that what i believe in may be wrong. So how is my faith blindfolded?

Im not having a go at you either mate ;)

Kiwi, I can see what your saying about some species living on water and land. But initially, they all came from the water. And i find it hard to comprehend how or why the first species would've left the water. Thats all

But there are many question marks throughout the history of Earth. Only the last 5,000 years of the world have been recorded in much detail. It is anyones guess what happened in the previous millions of years, after God created Earth, of course ;)

Cheers,
Moffo

 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
110,137
CS: "Clearly you will keep saying that since no answer on the side of faith or Christianiy will ever suit you."

No... with respect, that isn't so. You can get all stroppy about of you like but there is no way the paradox has been addressed.

I asked, "They [eg Mormons] have faith in Jesus Christ and isn't faith the basic tenet of Christianity?"

...and all we've got back is that the Mormons and other breakaway Christian groups are not up to scratch in the faith stakes.

Allow me to explain it again..

You sayMormons don't share the samefaith that you observe and that somehow devalues their faith.

My understanding is that Mormons and the Church of Latter Day Saintsare Christians. This is because they worship Jesus Christ.
But you say they are not real Christians because they have interpret things differently to your Christian beliefs.

Are we to concede that the Mormons have got it wrong because they simply see things differently to you? Is yours the only faith?

This is a contradiction that is being constantly overlooked.
 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
110,137
Sorry forgot to add this:

CS: "My point is that religious differences alone don't do anyone harm. It's when people take up arms, usually for other reasons, using religion as a pretext."

Quite right.
Religion is used a <u>catalyst</u> to get people to turn on each other. It happened in the Crusades and its happening right now. The'War on Terrorism' is really an excuse to get hold ofoil resources in Iraq. The sealer is to turn it into a Christian v Islam struggle. The evidence of this is everywhere... <u>religious intolerance</u> is being used once again to mobilise armies.
 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
110,137
One more time... :)
CS: "I found the following on a website:"
Which website mate?
 
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4,446
"Quite right. Religion is used a <u>catalyst</u> to get people to turn on each other. It happened in the Crusades and its happening right now. The'War on Terrorism' is really an excuse to get hold ofoil resources in Iraq. The sealer is to turn it into a Christian v Islam struggle. The evidence of this is everywhere... <u>religious intolerance</u> is being used once again to mobilise armies"

Are these your words Willow? Im getting confused with all the cutting and pasting lol. Anyways, if it isn't i apologise in advance

Now boys and girls, pick the conspiracy theory in this paragraph. There are actually two if you look closely ;)And in late breaking news, the cow jumped over the moon and the FBI just revealed that George Bush has shares in Caltex

Cheers,
Moffo

 

Leeds Eye

Juniors
Messages
5
i heard that every one can trace them selves back to royalty so i must be a royal eye you can call me king eye;)
 
K

Kiwi

Guest
Leisotto: I firmly don't believe in the suggestion that science, or natural evolution, could throw together such a perfect thing as the human body. The amazing ability of the body to create new life, it goes on and on. And for me, i think there had to be some form of 'higher'being that creates all this.

This is Mrs Kiwi:
See my problem with the christain beliefs stems from the reason that you believe in them, and it is this. If 'God' is so clever as to put together the human body, and 'God' knows everything. Why would 'God' make a flawed creation which would mean that he would have to suffer great anguish to fix it? (IE go through the agony of crucifixition; I am going with the general belief that God and Jesus are the same; and yes i do know that some Christian beliefs don't follow this, but then you can go with the whole 'what bastard would make their child do this if they could avoid it?")

 
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There are just a lot of holes in the non-religion theory. Whilst not knowing the complete history of 'evolution', i think it is widely agreed that the first signs of life occured in the water. Given that, how did these signs of life ever make it out of the water and onto land? How did the body evolve? I dont understand how the body could just 'change' to suit the environment. And how did the body adapt to accept the air that we breathe in today?
Let us look at the Humble Frog.

In its lifetime it starts as an egg under water. It hatches into to a water breathing tadpole equiped with gills and all. Whilst growing up it develops legs and a good set of lungs. Eventually it leaves the water and continues life as an air breathing frog. It mates and them goes back into the water to lay its eggs.

If one creature can accomplish this in its small lifetime, whose to sayothers can't over a millenia?
 
K

Kiwi

Guest
Willow: Quite right.
Religion is used a <u>catalyst</u> to get people to turn on each other. It happened in the Crusades and its happening right now. The'War on Terrorism' is really an excuse to get hold ofoil resources in Iraq. The sealer is to turn it into a Christian v Islam struggle. The evidence of this is everywhere... <u>religious intolerance</u> is being used once again to mobilise armies.

Mrs Kiwi:
This point can be taken a bit futher if you consider structured religion to be a tool of power. 'Faith' means that followerswill do what ever religious leaders tell them. People readily die for their faith. Very few would die so that their country would have an economic advantage.

 
K

Kiwi

Guest
Mrs Kiwi:
This doesn't directly answer the article that Canadian Steve posted in #402 but it does discus the mechanism of evolution. This is not the whole article. If you would like it i can email it to you. It was too long to post it all and the New Scientist Achive is only accessable to members. Although they do have a 7 day free trial thing if you really want it online.

<table class=background cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 width=390 align=center border=0> <tbody> <tr> <td> "Ready, steady, evolve </td></tr> <tr> <td> New Scientist vol 175 issue 2362 - 28September2002, page 28 </td></tr> <tr> <td class=space8></td></tr> <tr> <td> Evolution is a slow, painstaking process. But have plants and animals found a way of seizing the throttle to get them out of a tight spot? Bob Holmes reports </td></tr> <tr> <td class=space8></td></tr> <tr> <td> DESPITE its universal role in biology, evolution still poses some pretty perplexing questions. Take changes in body form. Every tree or beetle or mouse looks the way it does because thousands of genes turned on at exactly the right time and place to guide the organism from single cell to adulthood. But if body plans are the product of such intricately orchestrated programs, how can evolution ever conjure up new ones? Any slight perturbation would surely send a species tumbling from its evolutionary peak into the barren valleys beneath. Plants and animals may have hit on an ingenious solution - bottling up evolution for times when they really need it. By squirrelling away genetic mutations, the raw material of evolution, and releasing them all at once, species may be able to leap from peak to evolutionary peak without ever having to slog through the valleys between. This happy knack increases their odds of surviving stressful conditions - nothing less than evolution on demand. On the face of it, the idea sounds like biological heresy. Plants and animals couldn't have that sort of control over the random process underlying evolution, could they? Surprisingly, they could. Over the past few years, a handful of lab experiments have thrown up convincing evidence that organisms really can save up mutations for a rainy day. If the same thing happens in nature, then plants and animals have hit on a way to seize the throttle of evolution, accelerating it when necessary and slowing it down when not. Their storehouse of mutations may also prove to be a treasure trove of new genes for drug hunters to plunder or, equally, the time-bomb that helps explain the diseases of old age. The lead actor in this iconoclastic drama is a so-called "chaperone" protein called hsp90. One of the most abundant proteins in animals, plants and fungi, hsp90's job is to bind to unstable proteins and help them maintain their correct shape. In this role, hsp90 is rather like a valet, tidying up proteins that would otherwise become dishevelled by environmental insults such as high temperatures. Hence the chaperones' other name, "heat shock proteins". But hsp90 is also a crucial regulator of development. As a way of silencing proteins until their services are required, cells deliberately make some proteins unstable, especially certain ones that regulate developmental pathways. One of hsp90's jobs is to hold some of these proteins in the "standby" position. "It works on just about every [developmental] pathway you can imagine," says Susan Lindquist, director of the Whitehead Institute for Biomedical Research in Cambridge, Massachusetts. The first hint that hsp90's job gives it unusual leverage over evolution came four years ago, when Lindquist and her team mate Suzanne Rutherford were working at the University of Chicago. They noticed that fruit flies carrying a mutant copy of the hsp90 gene sometimes had offspring that looked very weird indeed. "We had eyes that grew out from the head in a stalk-like pattern, we had bristles in the wrong places, wings with different venation patterns and shapes, abdomens that were partly folded over, legs that were different shapes - virtually every structure in the adult fly was affected," says Lindquist. The same abnormalities showed up in normal flies doped in the larval stage with geldanamycin, a drug that interferes with the action of hsp90 (Nature, vol 396, p 336). .........."</td></tr></tbody></table>
 
K

Kiwi

Guest
Mrs Kiwi:
I have found a really good article on the environment V genes thing too if anyone is still interested in that side of this discussion. (Again from New Scientist).
 
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4,446
"See my problem with the christain beliefs stems from the reason that you believe in them, and it is this. If 'God' is so clever as to put together the human body, and 'God' knows everything. Why would 'God' make a flawed creation which would mean that he would have to suffer great anguish to fix it? (IE go through the agony of crucifixition"

God did not want us to be perfect. God wanted us to be challenged in life, go through good times and bad. There would be no good times if there wern't any bad ones. Would anyone here seriously want to be perfect? Think about it for a while, i seriously doubt that anyone would.

"Let us look at the Humble Frog.
In its lifetime it starts as an egg under water. It hatches into to a water breathing tadpole equiped with gills and all. Whilst growing up it develops legs and a good set of lungs. Eventually it leaves the water and continues life as an air breathing frog. It mates and them goes back into the water to lay its eggs.

If one creature can accomplish this in its small lifetime, whose to sayothers can't over a millenia?"

And Beowolf, are you suggesting, that by chance, the frog developed into a creature that could live off the land and underwater? Just explain to me, as i don't quite get it, how does a creature adapt to new conditions? The word evolution does not explain the process. For me, I think there just has to be some level of 'higher intervention'

Cheers,
Moffo


 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
110,137
Willow: "Religion is used a <u>catalyst</u> to get people to turn on each other. It happened in the Crusades and its happening right now. The'War on Terrorism' is really an excuse to get hold ofoil resources in Iraq. The sealer is to turn it into a Christian v Islam struggle. The evidence of this is everywhere... <u>religious intolerance</u> is being used once again to mobilise armies"
Moffo: Are these your words Willow? Im getting confused with all the cutting and pasting lol. Anyways, if it isn't i apologise in advance"

LOL... my friend,they are my words. Consistently scoring 9.5+ in the forum sevens isn't a fluke.....;)
But what do you mean? "the cow jumped over the moon and the FBI just revealed that George Bush has shares in Caltex"
The cow didn't jump over the moon? I have my beliefs too y'know... it's a matter of faith! :)
Seriously though, are you saying that GeorgeJnr doesn't have vested interestsin a war against Iraq?I would say he stands to make a lot of money from such a conflict.

BTW, Welcome back Beowolf and welcome Mrs Kiwi

 
K

Kiwi

Guest
MFC: God did not want us to be perfect. God wanted us to be challenged in life, go through good times and bad. There would be no good times if there wern't any bad ones. Would anyone here seriously want to be perfect? Think about it for a while, i seriously doubt that anyone would.

Mrs Kiwi: You have missed the point i was trying to make. What i was saying that most people would consider itvery wrong and stupidto make something that would cause yourself oryour offspring great amount of pain and suffering. It makes no sense at all that 'God' could make such a complicated universebut still be silly enough not to make it work properly.

Most Christians believe that 'God' made man as a companion. It just isn't logical to make a friend that is ultimately going to stab you in the back.

You don't have to do something wrong to know that it is wrong to do it.Our imaginations allowus to determine what our actions may result in.
 
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4,446
"Mrs Kiwi: You have missed the point i was trying to make. What i was saying that most people would consider itvery wrong and stupidto make something that would cause yourself oryour offspring great amount of pain and suffering. It makes no sense at all that 'God' could make such a complicated universebut still be silly enough not to make it work properly.
Most Christians believe that 'God' made man as a companion. It just isn't logical to make a friend that is ultimately going to stab you in the back.

You don't have to do something wrong to know that it is wrong to do it.Our imaginations allowus to determine what our actions may result in"

Are you talking about death when you say 'great amount of pain and suffering'?? Ill asume that you are, apologies if you are not. The point is, christians don't necessarily see death as a bad thing, they see it as the progress to the next stage, a happier level of existence. Its a tricky concept to understand unless you believe in it.

Moffo

 
K

Kiwi

Guest
MFC
Are you talking about death when you say 'great amount of pain and suffering'?? Ill asume that you are, apologies if you are not. The point is, christians don't necessarily see death as a bad thing, they see it as the progress to the next stage, a happier level of existence. Its a tricky concept to understand unless you believe in it.


No i am not talking about death. As i mentioned in my first post i said crucifixtion. Because 'God' messed up, He then had to assume a human form and die an excrutiating death in order to put things right. I have heard it repeated said by various denominations that it 'hurts' 'God' that people denouce him and that they sin. This is what i am talking about when i say pain and suffering.

 

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