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Thoughts on society.....

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CanadianSteve

Guest
<h2>from a website on St Thomas Aquinas. Sorry for the length.</h2> <h2>Whether God exists?</h2> Objection 1. It seems that God does not exist; because if one of two contraries be infinite, the other would be altogether destroyed. But the word "God" means that He is infinite goodness. If, therefore, God existed, there would be no evil discoverable; but there is evil in the world. Therefore God does not exist. Objection 2. Further, it is superfluous to suppose that what can be accounted for by a few principles has been produced by many. But it seems that everything we see in the world can be accounted for by other principles, supposing God did not exist. For all natural things can be reduced to one principle which is nature; and all voluntary things can be reduced to one principle which is human reason, or will. Therefore there is no need to suppose God's existence. On the contrary, It is said in the person of God: "I am Who am." (Exodus 3:14) I answer that, The existence of God can be proved in five ways. The first and more manifest way is the argument from motion. It is certain, and evident to our senses, that in the world some things are in motion. Now whatever is in motion is put in motion by another, for nothing can be in motion except it is in potentiality to that towards which it is in motion; whereas a thing moves inasmuch as it is in act. For motion is nothing else than the reduction of something from potentiality to actuality. But nothing can be reduced from potentiality to actuality, except by something in a state of actuality. Thus that which is actually hot, as fire, makes wood, which is potentially hot, to be actually hot, and thereby moves and changes it. Now it is not possible that the same thing should be at once in actuality and potentiality in the same respect, but only in different respects. For what is actually hot cannot simultaneously be potentially hot; but it is simultaneously potentially cold. It is therefore impossible that in the same respect and in the same way a thing should be both mover and moved, i.e. that it should move itself. Therefore, whatever is in motion must be put in motion by another. If that by which it is put in motion be itself put in motion, then this also must needs be put in motion by another, and that by another again. But this cannot go on to infinity, because then there would be no first mover, and, consequently, no other mover; seeing that subsequent movers move only inasmuch as they are put in motion by the first mover; as the staff moves only because it is put in motion by the hand. Therefore it is necessary to arrive at a first mover, put in motion by no other; and this everyone understands to be God. The second way is from the nature of the efficient cause. In the world of sense we find there is an order of efficient causes. There is no case known (neither is it, indeed, possible) in which a thing is found to be the efficient cause of itself; for so it would be prior to itself, which is impossible. Now in efficient causes it is not possible to go on to infinity, because in all efficient causes following in order, the first is the cause of the intermediate cause, and the intermediate is the cause of the ultimate cause, whether the intermediate cause be several, or only one. Now to take away the cause is to take away the effect. Therefore, if there be no first cause among efficient causes, there will be no ultimate, nor any intermediate cause. But if in efficient causes it is possible to go on to infinity, there will be no first efficient cause, neither will there be an ultimate effect, nor any intermediate efficient causes; all of which is plainly false. Therefore it is necessary to admit a first efficient cause, to which everyone gives the name of God. The third way is taken from possibility and necessity, and runs thus. We find in nature things that are possible to be and not to be, since they are found to be generated, and to corrupt, and consequently, they are possible to be and not to be. But it is impossible for these always to exist, for that which is possible not to be at some time is not. Therefore, if everything is possible not to be, then at one time there could have been nothing in existence. Now if this were true, even now there would be nothing in existence, because that which does not exist only begins to exist by something already existing. Therefore, if at one time nothing was in existence, it would have been impossible for anything to have begun to exist; and thus even now nothing would be in existence--which is absurd. Therefore, not all beings are merely possible, but there must exist something the existence of which is necessary. But every necessary thing either has its necessity caused by another, or not. Now it is impossible to go on to infinity in necessary things which have their necessity caused by another, as has been already proved in regard to efficient causes. Therefore we cannot but postulate the existence of some being having of itself its own necessity, and not receiving it from another, but rather causing in others their necessity. This all men speak of as God. The fourth way is taken from the gradation to be found in things. Among beings there are some more and some less good, true, noble and the like. But "more" and "less" are predicated of different things, according as they resemble in their different ways something which is the maximum, as a thing is said to be hotter according as it more nearly resembles that which is hottest; so that there is something which is truest, something best, something noblest and, consequently, something which is uttermost being; for those things that are greatest in truth are greatest in being, as it is written in Metaph. ii. Now the maximum in any genus is the cause of all in that genus; as fire, which is the maximum heat, is the cause of all hot things. Therefore there must also be something which is to all beings the cause of their being, goodness, and every other perfection; and this we call God. The fifth way is taken from the governance of the world. We see that things which lack intelligence, such as natural bodies, act for an end, and this is evident from their acting always, or nearly always, in the same way, so as to obtain the best result. Hence it is plain that not fortuitously, but designedly, do they achieve their end. Now whatever lacks intelligence cannot move towards an end, unless it be directed by some being endowed with knowledge and intelligence; as the arrow is shot to its mark by the archer. Therefore some intelligent being exists by whom all natural things are directed to their end; and this being we call God.
 
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CanadianSteve

Guest
Why didn't God just make man perfect? I'll repeat a cut and paste from CS Lewis I posted earlier in this thread:

<center> <h1>The Bible and C. S. Lewis</h1></center> <center> <h1>A Study of the Christian World View</h1></center> <hr>
Why Does Evil Exist?
It was of no interest to God to create a species consisting of virtuous automata, for the 'virtue' of automata who can do no other than they do is a courtesy title only; it is analogous to the 'virtue' of the stone that rolls downhill or of the water that freezes at 32 degrees. To what end, it may be asked, should God create such creatures? That He might be praised by them? But automatic praise is a mere succession of noises. That He might love them? But they are essentially unloveable; you cannot love puppets. And so God gave man free will that he might increase in virtue by his own efforts and become, a free moral being, a worthy object of God's love. Freedom entails freedom to go wrong: man did, in fact, go wrong, misusing God's gift and doing evil. Pain is a by-product of evil; and so pain came into the world as a result of man's misuse of God's gift of free will
 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
110,669
Dammit Steve: I clicked on those hyperlinks toGod and all I got was another christian website. Thought we'd get an opinion from the man himself.

God is perfect, and he made man in his own image. Then why is Man a sinner?
This time without CS Lewis...
emdgust.gif

 
C

CanadianSteve

Guest
I'll try, Willow:


God created man with free will, not robots. Genesis 1:26: "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..."

Man was created in a natural and moral likeness to God. When, as a creature with free will, man chose to disobey God, or sin as the Bible calls it, man lost the moral likeness to God. Man was no longer perfect or "sinless." But man retained the natural likeness to God of intellect, emotions, and will.

The rest of the story, according to Christianity, is that man continued to choose to sin and disobey God, despite God's attempts to bring man back to himself. Finally, God came to earth in human form - "For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.: (John 3:16)

I know this is hard to grasp unless you "see the light."
"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."(1Corinthians 1:18)

I clicked on those hyperlinks toGod and all I got was another christian website. Thought we'd get an opinion from the man himself. That's your first irreverent comment that I've laughed at. Very good. Now to be serious: Your way of directly linking to God is to pray, to talk to Him.

 
Messages
4,446
To be honest Willow, i think we are all stabbing in the dark re: Georgies motives. To suggest otherwise would be ludicrous! Who knows what him and the American government really know about Nasser Hussein. The Gov't will never let the real story out anyways, so guessing at what is really going on is a pointless exercise IMO

BTW, the cow tried to jump the moon but failed ;)Dont believe what you read in the poems

Fair enough Mrs Kiwi, i can see what your saying. I don't necessarily agree with it, saying that God 'messed up' is simplifying it just a little to much for me

Moffo
 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
110,669
Get back to youlater guys... God just got a magnificent century and has proved the doubters wrong!
That and my missus has given me ten more minutes on her computer. ;)
 

GURU_ONEYE

Juniors
Messages
2
DID ANY ONE SEE THE MONKEY TRIAL ON SBS LAST NIGHT;)I WILL GO WITH EVOLUITION &amp; SOME OF THE TEACHINGS OF THE BIBLE.
 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
110,669
Canadian Steve:
""And God said, Let us make man in <u>our</u> image, after <u>our</u> likeness...""
Thats what the bible says and I appreciate that this is your main source.
What does God mean by saying 'our'....? Who is is he speaking for?
The bible says thatGod created Earth but he already had Angels and one of these was Lucifer - who presides over hell. Lucifer /Satin / the devil used to be one of God's favourite angels before they had a falling out in the Old Testement.

So who are these other entities that God refers to?

Moffo: There hasn't been a war fought in history that didn't have some ulterior motive.
 
K

Kiwi

Guest
Mrs Kiwi: This comment is mostly addressed at Canadian Steve.

Just for clarification of my stand point. I personally do believe that there is something greater than myself out there, I just don't think it is the Christian 'God'.

'God' would obviously know the difference between good and evil and yet 'God' never does evil (this is a theological assumption). Why is it that 'God' couldn't make Man with the same knowledge? God has a free will....why is it that man could not be made with free will and the knowledge of good and evil?

My big problem with the Christian 'God' is the whole concept of there being a 'Devil' and 'Hell'. I don't believe in these things. I think the concept of the 'Devil' is a scapegoat. People don't want to except that bad things happen or that people can be 'evil'. And ofcourse there has to be a bad guy if your 'God' is this belevoent father figure because he would never want horrible things to happen.
 
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Kiwi

Guest
Mrs Kiwi: Another thing that i would just like to say for the record is that I once consider myself a devote christian, and i have been to many of the christian churches. I stopped believing because what was taught didn't add up. The whole concept made me miserable. Constantly worring about sinning, and praying, and the devil getting me, and evil sprits and the whole shebang. My family are very left wing christians, the whole falling on the floor and shaking rubbish. And quite franking they aren't real happy in their lives either. The difference between them and me though is that i decide that i would make my life better, they are still waiting for God to fix theirs.

I don't want to convert anyone. If your faith makes you happy then stick to it, but i am much happier without a Christian 'God'.
 
C

CanadianSteve

Guest
Willow:What does God mean by saying 'our'....? Who is is he speaking for?

I believe God is using the royal "we". Also, the Christian concept of God is the trinity, one God in 3 persons - Father, Son and Holy Spirit. In the gospel of John, 1:1, referring to Jesus, it says "In the beginning was the the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God," showing that Jesus was there in the beginning as part of God.

'God' would obviously know the difference between good and evil and yet 'God' never does evil (this is a theological assumption). Why is it that 'God' couldn't make Man with the same knowledge? God has a free will....why is it that man could not be made with free will and the knowledge of good and evil?Mrs. Kiwi

God did make man with free will and the knowledge of good and evil. That's the point of the Garden of Eden story, and ever since - man chooses to disobey God by doing evil.

My big problem with the Christian 'God' is the whole concept of there being a 'Devil' and 'Hell'. I don't believe in these things. I think the concept of the 'Devil' is a scapegoat. People don't want to except that bad things happen or that people can be 'evil'. And ofcourse there has to be a bad guy if your 'God' is this belevoent father figure because he would never want horrible things to happen. Mrs. Kiwi
You are going on the presupposition that the whole thing is made up. But if there is a God, and the Bible is true, the devil is the cause of evil in the world. Not that the devil should be a scapegoat - "the devil made me do it" is not an excuse, people are responsible for their own actions.

The whole concept made me miserable. Constantly worring about sinning, and praying, and the devil getting me, and evil sprits and the whole shebang. My family are very left wing christians, the whole falling on the floor and shaking rubbish Mrs. Kiwi

I can't speak for the falling on the floor people, I don't go in for that. I do think they put too much stock in emotions and feelings. It's too bad you turned away from Christianity because of that. I know lots of Christians who are secure and happy in their faith, not always worrying about "sinning... and the devil... and evil spirits". I wish you'd try another church that might be more suited to your personality.

 
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Kiwi

Guest
I can't speak for the falling on the floor people, I don't go in for that. I do think they put too much stock in emotions and feelings. It's too bad you turned away from Christianity because of that. I know lots of Christians who are secure and happy in their faith, not always worrying about "sinning... and the devil... and evil spirits". I wish you'd try another church that might be more suited to your personality.


Mrs Kiwi
The point I was making was I am more happy without a christian god. I've been to so many different churches ( including some dodgey ones ), and even a catholic school, so I amcertain that they and the christian god are not for me. I don't have that aching void thatchristians believe only god can fill, I am more than happy and complete without your god. I don't need a god to complete me, or as Cold Chisel so eloquently put it....."You ain't got nothing I want, got nothingI need".

Christainity teaches that you can't be happy unless your christian, so I don't expect you to able to understand or comprehend that i could be happy without your god.

 
K

Kiwi

Guest
God did make man with free will and the knowledge of good and evil. That's the point of the Garden of Eden story, and ever since - man chooses to disobey God by doing evil.


You are obviously not a well versed christian. All the churches that i've been to, including at catholic school, taught that the tree was the knowledge of good and evil. It was only after eating the fruit did they have the knowledge, before they were innocent as babes. Hence the reason they didn't realise or care they were naked. Otherwise what the hell was the tree for, it was the tree of knowledge which is why they couldn't eat it. The point is they were made innocent and it wasn't untill they ate from the tree of knowledge did they know the difference between good and evil.

 
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CanadianSteve

Guest
I know that, but didn't express it right. I condensed the story of the tree. I should have said, man was created with free will, and chose to disobey God by eating the fruit. Then they had knowledge of good and evil.


 

imported_JoeD

Juniors
Messages
653
Happy New Year everyone, it looks like a good time to jump into this discussion, with the continuous use of the term 'free will'. I don't know if it has been discussed but people seem to use this term as if it is an undeniable truth, that we all have free will. I'd like to challenge that idea by saying that nobody has free will. Everything we do is predetermined by 3 factors we have no control over. They are 1. our genes, 2. our environment and 3. our past experiences. A good example of this is ask yourself, what was the first thought you had when you woke up this morning? Whatever it was did you have any control over it? Now you might say there is a big difference between that and a big decision that you ponder over for hours . . . like what to have for lunch. The decision you make is controlled by your particular tastes at that time(ie 1. and 3.) and what is available to eat (2.) So you really don't have any choice. I challenge anyone to come up with an argument that says we have free will.
 
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Marcus

Guest
On evolution... if humans came from apes... then why do we still have apes? - why haven't they evolved? Also does it also mean that in a million years humans will end up looking quite different than what we look like today? - maybe end up looking like aliens.

In Darwin's theory he states that this world is survival of the fittest - the strong survive. But that can't be true cause we also witness the weak survive. In the animal kingdom, the off spring are weak - if the weak don't survive then a species won't survive. In our human society the weak are protected by law.

For those that say why doesn't God show himself.... lets be honest, even if he did people still wouldn't believe. The world is full of skeptics (even in this thread) who would denouce such an event.

On the God issue. I firmly believe in God... to me it makes more sense that the universe was made by God then it being made by nothing as those that believe in the big bang theory.

I am a Lutheran that hasn't gone to church for a number of years now - though it doesn't bother me cause I don't believe by going to church will entitle you to the kingdom of heaven. To me having faith is the most important thing and living a good life is also important. Not too sure that only Christians will be the only ones allowed in heaven.

For those that don't believe in the after-life/ or spirits well you might want to play a ouija board - get at least 3 people to play it.

For me the after-life/ spirits exist. There has been thousands of cases of people having near-death experiences or out of body experiences to validate such claims. The spirit world exists... I have a relative who talks to his dead son and he is a Christian though practices "witchcraft" - though its of the good sort. He has helped people with finding an illness in their body like cancer which was undetected by doctors. He has even helped my family.

I like to share this with the religious folk here:

The shortest chapter in the Bible is Psalms 117
The longest chapter in the Bible is Psalms 119
This of course leaves Psalms 118 in the middle
There are 594 chapters in the Bible before Psalms 118
There are 594 chapters in the Bible after Psalms 118
If you add 594+594 you get 1188
Now go and read Psalms 118 verse 8




 
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