Thoughts on society.....

[imported_JoeD]

I once heard a priest talk about this subject and he said that he thoughtgod created the big bang and life evolved from that. A good compromise I guess. I believe there was almost definitely somebody called Jesus back 2000 years ago. Where did he grow up though? As I'm aware there is no mention in the bible about him from early childhood until his late 20's. I've heard people say that he went and spent time in the Himalayas and thats where he picked up all his good ideas and became an enlightened man. The main problem with the bible is that it has been tinkered with so many times over the years. The Roman Catholicchurch is probably the longest surviving, most powerful, most corrupt organizations there has ever been. Who knows what they did with the content of the bible over the middle ages when most of the (western) world was illiterate? When was the bible first written down anyway? Talk about an extreme case of chinese whispers.

Modern science is just as bad. The problem with all the inconsistency with science and religion is that people thenjust pick and choose what to believe. My wife is pregnant, the doctor told her you shouldn't eat seafood, cold meats or salads that she hasn't made herself. It could harm the baby. You try telling that to somebody over 40 who has already had kids. Usual responses are 'what do they know?' 'eat what you like, i did' and the classic 'when i was your age . . . ' Yet those same people while sipping their 5th red wine of the night come up with, '. . .
y'know they say a glass of red wine a day is actually good for you . . . '

People just pick and choose what they like.

 

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[imported_JoeD]

Further to the above Would anybody believe if a scientist came out and said they had scientific proof that a type of paranormal world existed? Or would they just be dismissed as a hack

 

[Willow]

Leisotto. I can't help it if you're precious about Jesus. You asked me my opinion and I gave it.
Jesus was like any bloke who enjoyed the odd shag. Are you saying that Jesus didnt have sex? Offcourse he did... naturally. He was probably a Roman citizen afterall.
Its not dirty or disrespectful y'know and it's silly to get touchy about it.
I remember having a similar conversation about the royal family once because I wasn't showing the right respect.

Perhaps you should look past your own prejudices. Embrace the humour of the situation and address theprofile I put up before passing judgment. Its called discussion.

 

[Leisotto]

" "That just highlights your true thoughts on the issue. IMO, IMHO even lol, i struggle to see how you could be objective in a discussion such as this when its obvious that you have some pretty large biases against religion. Saying things like 'he enjoyed the odd shag' is really not showing a lot of respect towards those who believe in Christianity" - Leisotto
I know this was directed at willow but leisotto get in touch with reality sometime will you. Your hardly being objective yourself coming from your religous side of the fence. You say that things just always being lacks common sense yet your quite willing to believe in a higher being that just always was which many would say lack even more common sense."

No, to be honest, i found that his 'he enjoyed the odd shag' comment highlighted his real opinion on the matter. Hardly an objective comment. I believe in religion, but i try to remain objective about it, i don't come out with comments such as 'all scientists are geeks who have never rooted', do i? I know it was said as a joke, im not that anal lol. But seriously, i think i have explained in previous posts why i dont understand the 'things always being there' point. And as far as i know, the question i asked before has still not been answered

"Further to the above Would anybody believe if a scientist came out and said they had scientific proof that a type of paranormal world existed? Or would they just be dismissed as a hack"

Personally, id look at the proof before i called them a hack

Regards,
Leisotto

 

[CanadianSteve]

I thought this was thread about 'thoughts on society'. Perhaps you should have called it, "Who is religious like me?

A real cheap shot. Leisotto started this thread with a post that didn't mention religion directly. Then it took off in that direction with very few posts from him. Now that religion is one of the focuses, you're saying he can't come in and give his opinion.

Re the comments about Jesus in the same post: Another cheap shot. Those that believe in God here are sincerely trying to have a discussion. Some of those that don't agree aren't content to just argue back, they have to put in all these personal; attacks and snide comments. At least when EA posts you know he's just there to stir things up, not to discuss - you know where he's coming from. That's preferable to this approach where you pretenf to be discussing but every so often put thee unnecessary digs in.

 

[Willow]

JoeD: "Would anybody believe if a scientist came out and said they had scientific proof that a type of paranormal world existed? Or would they just be dismissed as a hack"
Lots of tests have been done but its all inconclusive. I believe that people have an acute sense of perception...some more than others. My better half once told me that her grandmother just died... we were in Australia and her grandmother was in England. She was right, her grandmother had died that morning.
But she was worried about it for days and she simply woke up one day and said it. She was sensitive to her grandmother's illness.

My trick is knowing who is calling when the phone rings. I get it right about 3 times out of 5.
But I answer the phone all day and have become sensitve to the habitsof my family and friends. Once again. its a matter of perception.

Regarding the paranormal and other things of magic:
The International Sceptics Society have for the last 10 or 20 years offered a prize of $1 MILLION to anyone who can prove their claims.
Its a standing offer to any faith healer, magician, clairvoyant, mind reader etc. The only condition being that the tests are doneat a neutral location with witnesses and unbiased experts.
Thus far, no one has been able to claim the prize.

 

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[CanadianSteve]

He got the gig as the son of God because he had a good publicist in Paul

This is saying that Paul just made it all up. Something that is still around after 2000 years, that our whole calendar is based on, that millions of people believe in, is all based on a lie. Further, that the disciples who made up the lie went to their death themselves for something they knew to be false.

 

[CanadianSteve]

Can you answer this question: Why is it that it lacks common sense to believe that things just always were but not to believe that a higher being always was. Both theories lack a beginning but it only lacks common sense if you believe in the evolutionists theory? -
Because the evolutionists' theory says that some natural substances always existed. To go back to the Aquinas arguments I posted, then summarized earlier, how could these substances, gases or whatever, have set themselves in motion or changed. Something or someone outside nature, or above it, who already existed, could have done it. The eternal, omnipotent God described in the Bible fits this description. Which reminds me, JoeD asked earlier; However it certainly does not prove there to be a christian god or even only one god. There might dozens of them.To Christians, the God of the Bible makes more sense, is more real, than say a bunch of pagan gods and spirits.

 

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[Willow]

My my a sudden rush of pettiness.

So far I've been accused of being adamant, narrow minded, irreverant, biased, lacking objectivity, and now I've been accused of firing cheap shots.
All capital offences I'm sure andthis being because I have the audacity to fire a few shots at the church.
Nevertheless, I've taken most of it on the chin. But I do think that people telling me what I can or cannot say is out of line.

Tell me, why is it a cheap shot to say that Jesus had a sex life or that Paul was a good story teller? Exactly which apart of my post was offensive?
And Steve, what gives you the right to accuse me of calling the bible a complete lie...? How did you turn the word publicist into liar? Furthermore, what gives you the right to tell me how to think and how to interpret Jesus?

So lets this straight...I can say anything I like as long as I don't show disrespect (in your eyes) to God, the bible or Jesus. Is that the way it is?

 

[CanadianSteve]

Bronco:Who is to say that these substances weren't always in motion?
Well, the argument is that nothing can be in motion without something setting it in motion.

I take it you don't believe the same rules apply for god that something must have first set him in motion. (I cleaned up your little typing glitch here - hope I did it right). That's the point - the same rules don't apply to God if He is what the bible says, eternal and all-powerful, above nature because He created it. I know that sounds like a copout to a non-believer or sceptic. And I know I'm saying something here that can't be absolutely proven (in this life), and is hard for some to accept.But people look for explanations to the big questions like how did life begin, why are we here, etc. Some turn to astrology, or other religions, or believe in aliens like the Raelians. Some turn to atheism, as we have seen on this thread. Christians turn to God and the Bible because they believe it contains the truth.

 

[imported_Mystery_Man]

"That's the point - the same rules don't apply to God if He is what the bible says, eternal and all-powerful, above nature because He created it. I know that sounds like a copout to a non-believer or sceptic. And I know I'm saying something here that can't be absolutely proven (in this life), and is hard for some to accept. But people look for explanations to the big questions like how did life begin, why are we here, etc... Christians turn to God and the Bible because they believe it contains the truth. "

That's why we never come to agreement on this thread, and no arguments will ever be resolved. The non-believers will never be able to accept the Christian view-point, and the Christians believe that the bible is true.

I think we are all (both sides of the debate) wasting our time.

 

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[CanadianSteve]

So lets this straight...I can say anything I like as long as I don't show disrespect (in your eyes) to God, the bible or Jesus. Is that the way it is? Yes, that's the way it is. Stick to that and we'll have no problems.
Seriously, this being the internet, I guess you can be as offensive as you want, and I can protest it as much as I want.

And Steve, what gives you the right to accuse me of calling the bible a complete lie...? How did you turn the word publicist into liar?
You're playing with words here. You said:

But he was just one of many prophets. At the time, the place was overun with such guys.
He got the gig as the son of God because he had a good publicist in Paul.

This implies to me that you're saying Jesus was just another human prophet, and Paul made up the part about being the son of God. The 4 gospels, as well as Paul's writings, say Jesus was the son of God, died and rose again, etc., so isn't what you said pretty close to calling Paul a liar? If you said embellisher, exaggerater(sp?) or something, isn't it still not telling the truth? I know lots of people feel the same as you about Jesus, I was just trying to present the other side.

 

[CanadianSteve]

That's why we never come to agreement on this thread, and no arguments will ever be resolved. The non-believers will never be able to accept the Christian view-point, and the Christians believe that the bible is true.

I think we are all (both sides of the debate) wasting our time.Mystery Man

You're probably right, MM. This thread can peter out any time as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

I agree, there is no solution to this discussion, it would get to 3,000 posts and there would still be no resolution
Willow mate, u have had the kitchen sink thrown at you! but in all honesty, you have thrown your fair share of comments back during the process of this thread. I just think that you use a bit more tact with your 'constructive criticisms' lol

Ill try and be as diplomatic here as possible lol. Willow, u said 'he enjoyed a good shag'. OK, well, is it something that has to be said, and in those terms? I know it was a joke and taken as humour, but still, did it add anything to the discussion? I think you knew that would get a response in advance. Same with the Paul comment

I to think Leisotto has been hard done by. He started off with his thoughts on society, nothing to do with religion. In fact, i think u brought him into the religious side of the argument at some point by asking whether he was christian or not. He has every right to express an opinion, just like yourself

I haven't seen much pettiness at all in this thread to be honest. Its been quite an interesting read, sure, we haven't all agreed on everything, but there has been no real slanging matches where the point of the thread has been lost

Cheers,
Moffo

 

[Willow]

CS: "This implies to me that you're saying Jesus was just another human prophet, and Paul made up the part about being the son of God.... so isn't what you said pretty close to calling Paul a liar? "

If you read what I said and for a moment (just a moment will do) cast aside your seriousness, you'll see that I was saying that Jesus was just a regular joe. This is my opinion and I was invited to offer my opinion on Jesus by Leisotto. I know I was being very casual about it but I wasn't being snide or sinful or disrespectful. Sorry if the answer wasn't what you wanted to hear but thats the way it is.

In any case, I don't see how this opinion makes Paul a liar or the bible a complete set of lies. Imo, the bible is an interpretation of events and the gospels were written by men who had their own interpretations... sometimes they contradict each other. It may mean they got it wrong but liars? not neccesarily.
Now if these guys had visions of Jesus performing miracles and raising from the dead.. who am I to argue? I don't agree with them and perhaps stories were embellished over time or maybe they were drunk at the time...but once again, this doesnt make a man a liar.
But even so... if I did want to call the bible a complete pack of lies and accuse Paul of being a circus master, then so what?

Jesus was a class act, no doubt in my mind about that. But I don't think things happened quite the way the bible suggests.
btw, the Koran thinks that Jesus was just a prophet as well... oh yeah, we're at war with Islam aren't we? I almost forgot.

I think it should be remembered that Ihardly ever bring these things up. I have a go at talking about society and environment and the answer is God this and God that.
Everytime someone tries to discuss community matters, someone else puts in another word for God and away we go again.

In the meantimequestions are asked.. getting the answers is sometimes like cracking coconuts with a feather but the questions kept flowing.

I'vebeen asked how did the universe begin and I did my best to answer.I got asked about my opinion of Jesus and once again, Idid my best to answer. Why do people ask? So they can hear the answer they want to hear? Sometimes it seems that way.
But I would have thought it was because we were having a debate... a mindless one at times I agree... but a debate nonetheless.

I'm still waiting for an answer from Marcus about evolution... but don't worry, I'm not holding my breath in anticipation.

 

[Marcus]

Apes have evolved and continue to do so. Your assertion that they haven't evolved is wrong.
Evolutionists don't neccessarily believe that humans come from apes.... again, you are wrong. Thats something that people just say to make themselves feel smug and superior...
To be honest, it offensive and almost a put down of Apes.

Answer this. Do you understand that species are evolving? - Willow

Depends on what you mean by evolving. If you mean that we develop into new species every million years then... no.

If you mean by micro-evolution (which is small changes within a species)then... yes.