Tomkins

[JJ]

you could say that but this argument plays out all over the internet.

The Burgi Graham Hanley Riley Lydon Morley all make that quip a nonsense ( not directed at you personally ) but really the poms make some of the greatest players ever......all time greatest.....the ole ESL is rubbish has nothing to do with the raw product they breed.

Sam Burgess was a ball dropping penalty magnet in season one.

I think the mental part of living on the other side of the world in completely foreign conditions takes these champions outside their zone for a bit.

The last pt isn't an issue for TL

A small number of elite players doesn't change the fact - TL will never be a star in the NRL, that's a fact, and I am also pretty certain the same is true for Tomkins. Going back to Hanley, Ward, Lydon etc doesn't add to the argument - at the moment we have Graham and the Burgess brothers... Morley was a bit overrated for mine, and was with the medias darlings at that stage...

 

[JJ]

Which would be valid if Tomkins was a god amongst insects at the Warriors.

But here he's barely running in the top five players in the club, and is a mile behind the leading fullbacks in the comp. I'm not sure exactly what his complaint was but if it was along the lines of having to "play below himself" at the Warriors then its completely invalid.

This... he might have been a big shot in the UK, and had a few good tests, but on performances he's not in the best 5 players at the Warriors imo, and at best middle of the pack for fullbacks across the NRL and not close to the best of them

 

[KeepingTheFaith]

Statistics beg to differ. Needs to clean up those one off clangers and he'd comfortably be one of the better fullbacks and players in the league. Whether he does that remains to be seen.

 

[JJ]

only if you cherry pick your statistics

 

[Izz]

lol@some of the comments in here. Said it before, in the main NRL forum, and i'll say it again. If the rest of our squad was subjected to the same microscope Tomkins is we'd want them all fired.

And while i have a soft spot for Locke (or at least the player i thought Locke would become) i love how we forget all of his weaknesses. Good for at least 1 dropped bomb a game, had fairly regular brain explosions with ball in hand, goal-line and in-goal defense often ineffective due to his size. Not to mention his unprofessional attitude off the field.

Tomkins has improved Johnson and the rest of our backline hugely this season. Warriors 4th in points scored. Big reason for that is Tomkins.

 

[Iafeta]

lol@some of the comments in here. Said it before, in the main NRL forum, and i'll say it again. If the rest of our squad was subjected to the same microscope Tomkins is we'd want them all fired.

And while i have a soft spot for Locke (or at least the player i thought Locke would become) i love how we forget all of his weaknesses. Good for at least 1 dropped bomb a game, had fairly regular brain explosions with ball in hand, goal-line and in-goal defense often ineffective due to his size. Not to mention his unprofessional attitude off the field.

Tomkins has improved Johnson and the rest of our backline hugely this season. Warriors 4th in points scored. Big reason for that is Tomkins.

100% agree. His ball playing on that right edge has given Hurrell time and space to be as awesome as he has been and allowed SJ to not overplay his hand and organise more.

The post that Tomkins isn't in the top 5 at the Warriors is also a joke. Of course he is. SJ, Tomkins, Hurrell, Matulino and Mannering, with a Vatuvei and Lillyman in the next tier IMO are the top 5.

He needs to tidy up his errors though and back his own running game more through the middle as he did v Newcastle (going through the middle more).

 

[KeepingTheFaith]

only if you cherry pick your statistics

:roll:

 

[JJ]

So, you'd ignore the blunders, and look away when he's out of position?

The reason he gets attention is the salary, and the hype - he is supposed to be better than this. I am not saying he's bad, and he's an upgrade on Locke, but not a huge one...

He's ok for me, but not his good attitude etc doesn't excuse the f**k ups imo, just as they don't Manu...

Friend, Nielsen, and even in the past Lilyman have all be criticised, but none are supposed to be near the best in the world in their position.

Johnson has taken some heat too, and again if you get the headlines, you also get the brickbats.

Anyway, I simply expected more, and certainly think the expectation that there's not a weekly f**k up isn't unreasonable - that goes for Manu too

 

[KeepingTheFaith]

Where have I ignored anything?

Did Tomkins create all this hype, did he come out talking it up? No, so really it's irrelevant. If other people want to listen to the hype and feel like they have to judge them by that then fine. I prefer to think for myself (not to say you're not, I'm talking in general terms as it's an argument we've all heard alot).

As for salary, in a couple of years all fullbacks will be earning what he is if not more, and some of the more elite ones already are.

His error rate is nowhere near as bad as people make out. Inglis and Boyd are some distance ahead in regards to errors per game, but outside of that Tomkins is either better or around the same as most. Fullbacks are always going to make more errors, let alone someone who is heavily involved. It's just those clangers like the Souths games that he needs to cut out.

Tomkins and Moylan are the two fullbacks who have attempted 100 tackles at over 80% success, which is more defense and at a better success rate than the majority of other fullbacks. Again the only two fullbacks who have a far superior tackle percentage (albeit less actual defensive work) are Inglis and Boyd. We're not getting Inglis, and even Knights fans don't want Boyd.

His attacking stats are almost top 5 across the board.

My point is, as it has always been. If he can remove those clangers (which again are not as bad as people want to dwell on) then he's easily going to be seen as one of the top 5 fullbacks.

 

[JJ]

All fair enough, I guess I am just a little underwhelmed...

 

[vvvrulz]

Did Tomkins create all this hype, did he come out talking it up? No, so really it's irrelevant. If other people want to listen to the hype and feel like they have to judge them by that then fine. I prefer to think for myself (not to say you're not, I'm talking in general terms as it's an argument we've all heard alot).

Tomkins 'himself' didn't create any hype, but there is absolutely no doubt that he was a marquee signing with a a big reputation and a fat paycheck. This is why he is under the microscope a little more than the others and imo that's fair enough. The scrutiny is all relative, if the others were in the same boat they deserved to be scrutinised just as much.

Silly to say that his salary isn't relevant since 'all fullbacks will earn that in a couple of years'. How large is the salary relative to his team mates?

Elite fullbacks already are earning this amount? So why is it over the top to expect performances up at an elite level?

Doesn't really make sense to point to missed tackle stats either, the problem often is that he isn't in position in the first place to make a try-line tackle. How many times have players barged over him to score while he was still holding on, does that count as a missed tackle?

I don't think anyone is calling him a bad player, he currently isn't living up to those expectations which is a bit disappointing.

 

[JJ]

yeah, he's no Slater, Hayne, Inglis, Stewart or Dugan... probably not as good as Barba, Tedesco, Boyd, or Milford...

As a whole, pretty ordinary for an NRL fullback - there are pluses and minuses

 

[Izz]

yeah, he's no Slater, Hayne, Inglis, Stewart or Dugan... probably not as good as Barba, Tedesco, Boyd, or Milford...

As a whole, pretty ordinary for an NRL fullback - there are pluses and minuses

lol

 

[SpaceMonkey]

yeah, he's no Slater, Hayne, Inglis, Stewart or Dugan... probably not as good as Barba, Tedesco, Boyd, or Milford...

As a whole, pretty ordinary for an NRL fullback - there are pluses and minuses

Harsh... certainly better than Barba or Boyd on this years form, and better than Tedesco in the sense that he isn't made of glass and injured 75% of the time.

 

[Iafeta]

yeah, he's no Slater, Hayne, Inglis, Stewart or Dugan... probably not as good as Barba, Tedesco, Boyd, or Milford...

As a whole, pretty ordinary for an NRL fullback - there are pluses and minuses

Stewart is slowing down. Boyd is dreadful. Barba like Boyd is having a laugh with his efforts. Tedesco has played what 5 games this year? Frankly Sam outplayed Slater by some margin when they squared off.

I mean really. I know there's exaggeration for effect but to even compare him with some of those chaps is embarrassing at best.

 

[KeepingTheFaith]

Tomkins 'himself' didn't create any hype, but there is absolutely no doubt that he was a marquee signing with a a big reputation and a fat paycheck. This is why he is under the microscope a little more than the others and imo that's fair enough. The scrutiny is all relative, if the others were in the same boat they deserved to be scrutinised just as much.

Silly to say that his salary isn't relevant since 'all fullbacks will earn that in a couple of years'. How large is the salary relative to his team mates?

Elite fullbacks already are earning this amount? So why is it over the top to expect performances up at an elite level?

Doesn't really make sense to point to missed tackle stats either, the problem often is that he isn't in position in the first place to make a try-line tackle. How many times have players barged over him to score while he was still holding on, does that count as a missed tackle?

I don't think anyone is calling him a bad player, he currently isn't living up to those expectations which is a bit disappointing.

His output us more than comparable and in a lot of places better than the majority of fullbacks therefore his salary in comparison to other fullbacks is fine.

Inglis and Hayne (in most departments) are out performing Tomkins. Most other fullbacks are the same or below. What more do you want?

How are missed tackles and overall tackle stats not relevant when it's a direct comparison with those in the same position who have not only missed more but in some cases have made half as many.

 

[KeepingTheFaith]

yeah, he's no Slater, Hayne, Inglis, Stewart or Dugan... probably not as good as Barba, Tedesco, Boyd, or Milford...

As a whole, pretty ordinary for an NRL fullback - there are pluses and minuses

Lol just lol.

 

[sup42]

The argument that Tomkins isn't even there to make tackles = his miss tackle stats are invalid begs the Q.

In a defensive line....if a players is not making misses by not being there.....

what is the responsibility of the players who make up that portion of the line ?

Are they somehow exempt because Tomkins (who is renowned for covering a lot of ground) is not there instead ?

The same applies to the low cross field kick so called miss reads on tackle five.

In every example there are players in the line not competing for those kicks which they are in a better position to defend.

So who's supposed to make a play for those ?

Closest player or Fullback because there is an expectation in some peoples minds that a Fullback will field all kicks.

What I have noticed with Tomkins is an intentional opposition ploy where prior to making their last tackle kick they will run the runners at Tomkins space in the line.

Often detractors ignore that Tomkins was involved in the preceding tackle before being ' out of position ' in the last tackle play.

This is a common NRL ploy.....which is countered by outside backs like Wing men turning and having a good awareness / anticipation of competing for the Kicks / helping out their Fb.

The Dragons are probably one of the best in the competition at this one facet of play which is why the crude Warrior outside backs and weak kick chase mentality has lead to one of the worst bogeys in the NRL......If you wonder why we can't beat the dragons the answer is lean....one percenter hand eye coordinated outside backs...their mobility and ability to counter attack as a unit inclusive of Fb and both wings kills the Warriors off.....in direct contrast an expectation that all missed in goal kicks are the domain of the fullback misses the point of an outside back trio like the Dragons who have great communication and work as a unit....

Finally, for mine, closest player to a low cross field lick needs to commit.

 

[Fufu Andronez]

Plenty of water to go under the bridge yet. Generally when big name or big potential spine players move to a new team it takes a while to settle. Can't think of too many who have made such a move or have been elite within 12-13 games. Some exceptions though of course.

I think we are definitely a better team with Tomkins and am happy with the salary we are paying him. We had the money sitting there and it's better going to him then Carney or Lui or some of the other targets we "identified"

 

[JJ]

Stewart is slowing down. Boyd is dreadful. Barba like Boyd is having a laugh with his efforts. Tedesco has played what 5 games this year? Frankly Sam outplayed Slater by some margin when they squared off.

I mean really. I know there's exaggeration for effect but to even compare him with some of those chaps is embarrassing at best.

:lol: yes, deliberately so... but he is supposed to be in the Slater, Inglis, Dugan, Hayne, Stewart group - and patently he is not... both in attack and defence he's well behind them, regardless of what stats say

One game against the Storm doesn't mean anything tbh.

He's ok though, just not what I had hoped (and been led to believe)