Top ten things Rugby owes to league

[Th1rteen]

#9 is actually true although very rarely spoken about. The French government still to this day refuse to acknowledged that it happened. And of course France Rugby Union never mention it either. By far the worst chapter in rugby union's history.

I actually heard that anyone found playing "jeu a 13" was shot.

It is all explained in the book "Champagne Rugby" by Henri Garcia.

 

[Bluebags1908]

I love League but dislike all this anti-union attiude amonst league supporters. Plain and simply League wouldnt of exisited without Union that should be the number #1 what league owes union.

The administrators for union are alot more clued up with how business works and overall even though i can admit union is the inferior product of the two.

Rugby League can learn alot to grow the game if they put the past issues aside and move forward. Now can we please enjoy all sports and get over it.

What rubbish.

There is an old French Rugby League saying that I heard once, which was: "If there was no Rugby League, there would only ever be... Rugby League".

In other words, if Rugby League never existed and never broke away from Rugby Union, the game of Rugby Union would have evolved look like what Rugby League is today anyway (or very close to it). The only problem for Rugby Union now is that they can't keep changing their rules because it would look like Rugby League which the breakaway group has beaten them to it.

 

[manoj p]

French union haven't suffered a bit from this disgraceful incident.

If the IRB had any gumption, it would force them to own up to it. Perhaps a threat to exclude them from the next few world cups would do it?

:crazy:

 

[WaznTheGreat]

Rugby owns league

 

[ANTiLAG]

In regard to Item 2 the accuracy in goal kicking is more to do with advances in the shape/technology of ball design, kicking tees and players being fulltime and thus having time to train. As a trend, NFL had round-the-corner "side-winder" kickers long before either of the rugby codes, and I'm not entirely sure who influenced Halligan and Ridge to adopt that style. It was in Sydney RL consistently since John Gray in the late 1970s.

Alan Hewson, Robbie Deans, Grant Fox and maybe Greg Cooper influenced Halligan and Ridge in that order. Kicking Tees when brought in were originally a hinderance for goal kickers who preferred sand. Tee's were to save perceived time wasting and shorten intervals in game time. I think most ball changes were made to prevent the ammount of fumbled ball in the wet - but I could be wrong on this point.

Soccer had the round the corner kick first. Rugby League beat the Union to it:

Willie Horne was round the corner kicking with tremendours results in English Rugby League in the 40's. Did not become commonplace in Union till late 70's. League was behind the 8 ball in having it WIDESPREAD but they did beat rugby to it initially.

It became big in the NFL in 80's I am guessing (but no earlier than 70's): it was about that time they started to sign soccer players to do the kicking duties.

So while in the 90's Boticaq, Ridge, Halligan transformed the English and Australian method of goal kicking - they did not give soemthing new to League. Really just union giving back to League ala Willie Horne.

 

[RL1908]

Alan Hewson, Robbie Deans, Grant Fox and maybe Greg Cooper influenced Halligan and Ridge in that order. Kicking Tees when brought in were originally a hinderance for goal kickers who preferred sand. Tee's were to save perceived time wasting and shorten intervals in game time. I think most ball changes were made to prevent the ammount of fumbled ball in the wet - but I could be wrong on this point.

Soccer had the round the corner kick first. Rugby League beat the Union to it:

Willie Horne was round the corner kicking with tremendours results in English Rugby League in the 40's. Did not become commonplace in Union till late 70's. League was behind the 8 ball in having it WIDESPREAD but they did beat rugby to it initially.

It became big in the NFL in 80's I am guessing (but no earlier than 70's): it was about that time they started to sign soccer players to do the kicking duties.

So while in the 90's Boticaq, Ridge, Halligan transformed the English and Australian method of goal kicking - they did not give soemthing new to League. Really just union giving back to League ala Willie Horne.

There were round the corner kickers in UK rugby pre WW1, but we're never going to know who was first. They were rare, heavily criticised, but they existed.

I think the original post that triggered this angle was claiming Ridge/Halligan brought accuracy to RL goal kicking - I was suggesting that with or without Ridge/Halligan, from the mid 90s onwards higher accuracy would have happened in both codes anyway, due to uniform all-weather synthetic balls (kept shape & didn't hold water), kicking tees and fulltime training.

The "sidewinders" in the NFL began in the mid 1960s with Jan Stenerud and Pete Gogolak. There's a good NFL.com story reproduced here:
http://brunvoll.homeip.net/stenerud/?p=nflportrait

 

[ANTiLAG]

I think the original post that triggered this angle was claiming Ridge/Halligan brought accuracy to RL goal kicking - I was suggesting that with or without Ridge/Halligan, from the mid 90s onwards higher accuracy would have happened in both codes anyway, due to uniform all-weather synthetic balls (kept shape & didn't hold water), kicking tees and fulltime training.

Problem - the accuracy in union was with leather balls that did hold water, from sand, and was an amateur game. Hewson, Deans, Fox, Cooper, Ridge and Halligan all learnt their trade at high accuracy leves with none of the things you mention. Not to mention Lynagh, Porta, Andrew, and other non New Zealanders. NZ was certainly still using the leather Adidas ball (ugly brown and black thing) throughout the 80's. I do not know what the 87 Mitre ball was made out of - but 88 and 89 they reverted to the leather adidas ball. THings changed permanently after the 91 world cup ball. Tee's came in 92 or 93. But the 80's when Halligan, Ridge and all the other learnt their trade were defintely using leather balls, sand and were amateur players. Union already expected high standards of goal kicking, both provincially in NZ and all teams internationally. The influx of union players into league did increase the standards of goal kicking. Cronin is laughable by today's standards. Remember Eion Crossan was signed by two NSWRL clubs purely on goal kicking.

Tee's were defintely to save sand castle time - not to improve accuracy.

Willie Horne is widely attirbuted as the first successful round the corner kicker and that was 1940's - unless you can provide a link or a book extract to suggest otherwise - I am standing by this.

The "sidewinders" in the NFL began in the mid 1960s with Jan Stenerud and Pete Gogolak. There's a good NFL.com story reproduced here:
http://brunvoll.homeip.net/stenerud/?p=nflportrait

Okay - I was a decade out. I concede that. I don't follow NFL. But point conceded.

 

[RL1908]

Problem - the accuracy in union was with leather balls that did hold water, from sand, and was an amateur game. Hewson, Deans, Fox, Cooper, Ridge and Halligan all learnt their trade at high accuracy leves with none of the things you mention. Not to mention Lynagh, Porta, Andrew, and other non New Zealanders. NZ was certainly still using the leather Adidas ball (ugly brown and black thing) throughout the 80's. I do not know what the 87 Mitre ball was made out of - but 88 and 89 they reverted to the leather adidas ball. THings changed permanently after the 91 world cup ball. Tee's came in 92 or 93. But the 80's when Halligan, Ridge and all the other learnt their trade were defintely using leather balls, sand and were amateur players. Union already expected high standards of goal kicking, both provincially in NZ and all teams internationally. The influx of union players into league did increase the standards of goal kicking. Cronin is laughable by today's standards. Remember Eion Crossan was signed by two NSWRL clubs purely on goal kicking.

Tee's were defintely to save sand castle time - not to improve accuracy.

Willie Horne is widely attirbuted as the first successful round the corner kicker and that was 1940's - unless you can provide a link or a book extract to suggest otherwise - I am standing by this.

Okay - I was a decade out. I concede that. I don't follow NFL. But point conceded.

Sorry - you seem to be under the impression I'm trying to out-point you with facts - I'm not.

All I was pointing to was that RU didn't give to RL via Halligan/Ridge a means to more accurate kicking, nor that RU kickers of previous generations weren't accurate (particularly as a RU ball is rounder and easier to kick than a RL ball from the 1970s onwards).

But the fact El Masri can consistently at training successfully kick conversions from near touch blind-folded tells you much about how the process has changed and how the variables that once existed are gone, and what constant practice (that being fulltime) can achieve. Yes there were many accurate kickers in past generations, but there are more today, and its not because they are more naturally skilled.

Not arguing against Horne being the first prominent round the corner kicker in either code. All I wrote was he wasn't the first. The reference to earlier round-the-corner kickers is in EHD Sewell's "Book of Football" published c.1910.

 

[ANTiLAG]

Just clearing up the myth about kicking tees more so.

 

[RL1908]

Just clearing up the myth about kicking tees more so.

What myth? There was no blanket adoption of tees to RL. Players were free to choose sand v tee (and some stadia began to discourage/ban use of sand).

The tee gave kickers a consistent platform to kick from in training and to then take it into the game.

The tee also meant at traininng they could save a lot of time between kicks, and take more kicks (as opposed to training with sand and/or via a knick in the ground or a player holding it). Couple all of that with players having a lot more time to practice.

All of the above produced greater accuracy. Whether Halligan or Ridge happened along or not, that evolution would still have come to RL.

 

[ANTiLAG]

What myth? There was no blanket adoption of tees to RL. Players were free to choose sand v tee (and some stadia began to discourage/ban use of sand).

The tee gave kickers a consistent platform to kick from in training and to then take it into the game.

The tee also meant at traininng they could save a lot of time between kicks, and take more kicks (as opposed to training with sand and/or via a knick in the ground or a player holding it). Couple all of that with players having a lot more time to practice.

All of the above produced greater accuracy. Whether Halligan or Ridge happened along or not, that evolution would still have come to RL.

The point I am making is that union had already high accuracy of kicking WIDESPREAD before kicking tees, before synthetic balls and before professional rugby.

Accuracy has come light years from the round the corner style as opposed to the Cronin Meninga hack. Clearly the difference int he balls did not matter because Ridge and Halligan were clearly light years ahead of other NSWRL kickers.

The percentage increase subsequent to that time would be minimal.

Carter may be better than Ridge, Halligan, Fox or Deans, but not by as much as Fox, Deans, Ridge and Halligan are to Cronin and Meninga.

 

[ANTiLAG]

I think the original post that triggered this angle was claiming Ridge/Halligan brought accuracy to RL goal kicking - I was suggesting that with or without Ridge/Halligan, from the mid 90s onwards higher accuracy would have happened in both codes anyway, due to uniform all-weather synthetic balls (kept shape & didn't hold water), kicking tees and fulltime training.

There was no overtly noticable increase in Union accuracy due to tees, synthetic balls and and professionalism. The revolutionary increase in accuracy was round the corner kicking. Everything subsequent has been marginal at best.

 

[Willow]

I love League but dislike all this anti-union attiude amonst league supporters. Plain and simply League wouldnt of exisited without Union that should be the number #1 what league owes union.

Not an accurate statement imo. Both are rugby football.

Opposition to separate competitions was nothing new in the 1800s, the schism or breakaway of 1895 was just a culmination of these upheavals.

By your logic, rugby football would not have existed without soccer, as the former saw similar breakaways leading to the latter. Depends how far you want to go back. The point is, no football code was created overnight.

 

[The 18th Man]

A thank you for taking Alan Jones off their hands?

 

[Willow]

A thank you for taking Alan Jones off their hands?

What a happy looking bunch.

Especially Backdoor Benny.

 

[The 18th Man]

Touché Willow. I am surprised Brian Smith (rugby convert Jones brought to Balmain for some of the younger members) isn't apart the pic ;-)

 

[El Diablo]

no surprise Jack's son plays AFL

 

[RedVee]

I thought RL got the kicking Tees directly from NFL??? :? with no look towards Union.

Re the grounds and sand, the SCG never allowed sand (in my memory); I remember the players (a Frank Hyde expression) "scratching around like chickens" trying to get enough turf and dirt to make a mound. I think at some time they may have used sawdust - but can't swear to that.

 

[ANTiLAG]

I thought RL got the kicking Tees directly from NFL??? :? with no look towards Union.

Re the grounds and sand, the SCG never allowed sand (in my memory); I remember the players (a Frank Hyde expression) "scratching around like chickens" trying to get enough turf and dirt to make a mound. I think at some time they may have used sawdust - but can't swear to that.

Sawdust was used.

NFL ball a totally different shape. Early 90's union made tees compulsory to cut down play stoppages for kicking. This signifincatly developed the tees. They werent the scientific creations they are now. They were originally just cone shaped with the top cut flat.

I can see the argument that rl1908 is trying to make but it just does not hold for two reasons. Firstly, Union already had 80% standards without tees, synthetic balls, and professionalism throughout the 80's. Argentina (Porta), South Africa (Botha), NZ (Fox), Aus (Lynagh), Eng (Andrew), Scotland (Hastings), to name but a few. ANd remeber in Union they take much harder penalty kicks from further out etc. League was behind the times.

Ridge showed the worth of accurate goal kicking (not for penalities as union) but just to turn 4 into 6 within the NSWRL. Ridge blew league people away in 1990. You have to remember the guy had never kicked for any of his rugby teams because he was not good enough for union! It caught on and there was a rush for top clubs to get union kickers exemplified by Crossan, Schuster, Halligan AND to get union trainers to teach people goal kicking. From 1991 onwards the standard of NSWRL and English League kicking greatly improved. Terry Matterson and Mal were the last two toe hackers I remember. But even the likes of Brandy and Taylor were assisted by the extra training from union kickers comming in and teaching. The NSWRL and English league eventually raised their standards to union levels by about the end of the 90's.

The round the corner kickers in League had up until Ridge still only kicked the ball straight. Ridge/Halligan et al taught people to have an arc in the kick for greater control and accuracy. Now - its common place./

Tee's, balls, professionalism irrelevant. Goal kicking just was not highly valued until Ridge awed people in 1990. Suddenly 60% was not good enough. One year in the mid 80's when Parra won - Cronin's season goal kicking average was 45%! Unheard of today and not at all acceptable by NPC (Union) standards at the same time.

The revolution of league goal kicking from the start of 1990 to the end of the 90's matches that done by union a decade earlier. It makes sense union to do it first - 3 point penalties and often in the 80's games were merely a penalty shoot out. More so than today.

 

[Dogs Of War]

I can see the argument that rl1908 is trying to make but it just does not hold for two reasons. Firstly, Union already had 80% standards without tees, synthetic balls, and professionalism throughout the 80's. Argentina (Porta), South Africa (Botha), NZ (Fox), Aus (Lynagh), Eng (Andrew), Scotland (Hastings), to name but a few. ANd remeber in Union they take much harder penalty kicks from further out etc. League was behind the times.

1908 did point out though that the Union ball changed to a more rounded shape in the 70's which made it easier to kick. Thus why those union players were able to achieve a higher success rate faster than league players were able to. Obviously technique is part of that equation as well, but as pointed out, around the corner kickers have existed for quite some time previous to the 80's. Just not as common.