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Ultrathread I: Thread of the Year - 2014

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Red Bear

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I assume by that you mean your stance on them is the same, which is fair enough.



I'm "pro-choice" (pro choice and pro life are such stupid terms, especially since as your average pro-lifers are hardly pro-life at all) but I agree with you that there needs to be more personal responsibility when possible.



You say you wouldn't do it now, but I'm surprised you could be confident you'd still feel that way if certain circumstances presented themselves. I actually tend to feel the same way though, I would say now I wouldn't do it either, but who knows how I'd feel if I was facing particular situations.

Still, it's kind of beside the point about whether you personally would do it or not; that anyone thinks they have the right to tell people they can't make this decision about their own lives is mind-boggling. It has the bad eggs of the 'pro-lifer' crowd written all over it.
Yes, stance is pretty similar - personally not a fan (and the euthanasia in particular is just I doubt I would do it, abortion is more I don't like the idea of it in general, although as I said there's a multitude of reasons it should be legal that I agree with) but not opposed to the general populations having the option.


And you're right, I don't know how I'd react if I was no longer able to control bodily functions, constantly in pain, lost mind etc.
Although the option for end stage dementia/alzheimers is probably where it's most tricky. If you're in that state where you don't have full awareness of what is going on around you, how could you possibly consent to what was going to happen. That's where it's pretty tricky to legislate for it. Again, I'm happy for the option to be there for people, but it's not a cut and dry issue, there's alot of extra factors involved.
 

Misanthrope

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As much as I love myself (and therefore life), I'd do euthanasia in a heartbeat if I were terminally ill and my only prognosis was 'more pain that you are presently feeling'.

Although, as a lapsed Catholic, it does throw up some hesitations re: entrance to heaven.
 

Apey

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Lolz.

Re the dementia/alzheimers Red Bear, I think it's probably a bit of a stretch to consider that as voluntary euthanasia, which is what I was arguing for personally. I'm not sure that the consent could ever be considered genuine enough.
 

Red Bear

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Lolz.

Re the dementia/alzheimers Red Bear, I think it's probably a bit of a stretch to consider that as voluntary euthanasia, which is what I was arguing for personally. I'm not sure that the consent could ever be considered genuine enough.
There were a few (informal) debates in a couple of bioethics uni classes I had on euthanasia, which is where this comes from.

But the thought is, if i ever get to the alzheimers point where I don't know who I am then I'd rather die - but then it's impossible at that point to give consent. And that is how a lot of people would see it, a way to avoid that last horrible dementia/alzheimers struggle, yet it's almost impossible to give it in that case.
 

RHCP

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Make it an option on your drivers license or something similar, like organ donation.
 

Drew-Sta

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People who are against voluntary euthanasia generally have the worst arguments I have heard on any subject. Impress me!

As I said to muzby, euthanasia is the same issue as capital punishment in its root - do humans have the right to take life, even their own?

That is the question at stake.

Going along with this, whilst there are no doubt some psychopaths completely beyond rehabilitation, I think the death penalty is sort of a bandaid solution to crime. Not particularly deterrent, doesn't address the underlying social issues - a big thing in the states, just a way of saying oh well that ones done.

I think the way the United States society works has created an underclass of desperate people, with very little hope of escaping that scenario (other than, of course, the army, which is kind of deliberate as well), and the society would be better as a whole if they adressed alot of these problems, rather than just focus on extremely harsh sentencing for a variety of crimes that don't warrent it, and only serve to exaserbate the problem.

I agree with what you're saying.

Euthanasia and abortion are similar in my mind - Not a fan, but no real problem with legality. Abortion though I basically don't think should be needed in this day of a multitude of birth control options available, at some point there has to be some personal responsibility.

But of course abortion should be legal, because the alternative is backyard jobs (horrible) and there is a reasonable amount of times it's pretty valid (rape, incest, health of the mother etc).

Euthanasia, wouldn't do it myself, but can understand it being available for people. End stage of some diseases are absolutely horrid.

Abortion is a different, although tangentially relevant, issue. Lets keep them separate right now. The main difference there is when you class life to be life. Its a bit cleaner with a human that is post-birth.

I'm pro Euthanasia. I think it's a person's life, and they should be able to choose it whenever they so desire. Where does the government stop being in charge of you and your body?

Government has no say in it, really. If I want to kill myself, there's little they can do to stop me. The government is legislating the use of medical means to euthanize. There's a reason for it, as it requires a doctor, and since doctors are part of the medical industry and fall under government legislation (to prevent malpractice etc) there are actual reasons for the government creating rules around this.

The issue is one of 'thin edge of the wedge' scenario's. Euthanasia is a permanent solution applied to problems. When does one classify for euthanasia? When is consent found where it is not clouded by circumstance? Etc etc. Gov is attemptiing to prevent people taking permanent solutions to a problem that, should they hold off on, they might find were a mistake.

Also, you can't have this:

I don't know an alternative, sadly, but I choose to do as little as my living under that umbrella as I can. Humans were meant to live in groups and, maybe, even in cities. We were not meant to live in nations where we never meet or interact with our leadership.

Without this:

Don't even get me started on the fact that at no point in your life do you agree to be ruled by these people who are apparently your betters and represent your interests. Democracy, and organised society on the large scale it exists, is a farce and it's beginning to tear at the seams. Mass shootings, huge rises in mental illness in the western world, an ever expanding divide between the rich and poor, and the fact the political system is inherently corrupt (and we're okay with this because changing it would mean revolution) are all signs that democracy - a fantastic concept when it was first practiced - does not work in nations the size of which exist today.

(I deliberately did not highlight democracy)

I said it awhile ago and it still stands. When the day comes that someone else has to wipe my ass for me then put me down but in a way that I can still have an open casket. Whether it is legal or not I don't give a shit

Why the open casket, for curiosity?

As much as I love myself (and therefore life), I'd do euthanasia in a heartbeat if I were terminally ill and my only prognosis was 'more pain that you are presently feeling'.

Although, as a lapsed Catholic, it does throw up some hesitations re: entrance to heaven.

Suicide and self-termination are different things, mind. Both are forgivable, the issue is why have they been performed.

do it in a way that you can have one last joy, like dropping from a big height or something

Don't do that. I had a friend jump off Miranda Westfields to 'end it'; the effect wasn't immediate, shall we say...
 

Rhino_NQ

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Why the open casket, for curiosity?


...

just a courtesy to the rest of the family. Bit easier on them to identify me and have the funeral when im still recognizable instead of having a bullet take a chunk out of my head or been scraped off the front of a train after being wheeled out infront of one
 

Drew-Sta

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Not sure what your point was there, Drew? Maybe it's the lack of sleep :lol:

Which part? :lol:

just a courtesy to the rest of the family. Bit easier on them to identify me and have the funeral when im still recognizable instead of having a bullet take a chunk out of my head or been scraped off the front of a train after being wheeled out infront of one

Ah. So articulate with vivid imagery :lol:
 

muzby

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As I said to muzby, euthanasia is the same issue as capital punishment in its root - do humans have the right to take life, even their own?

That is the question at stake.
do we have the right to create life?

we have the ability and the equipment to do so, and also arguably the common sense to know when is the right time for this to happen..

so why not the same for the other end of life?
 
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Rhino_NQ

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if I woke up one morning and was suddenly a Brisbane supporter I want it to be legal for my family to put me out of my misery
 

Drew-Sta

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do we have the right to create life?

we have the ability and the equipment to do so, and also arguably the common sense to know when is the right time for this to happen..

so why not the same for the other end of life?

Technically, although our bodies can be used to end life, it is a violation of what we were designed to do. At least, in my mind.

To kill someone you need to violate their body and cause damage to it.

To give life you need to integrate with somebody and cause life through it.

I do think they're different concepts. Given our bodies eventually wither and die, my understanding of this issue is 'when your time is up, it is up' - anything premature to that is a violation.

The part addressed to my rant about large scale 'community'.

You cannot have large scale community and cities, which you suggested we were designed to live in, without some governing body to order that large scale community and city.

Ergo, your suggestion that society is pulling apart at the seams might be correct, for in my mind it is. But to suggest government has no role to play in the lives and decision making of people is incorrect, as to live in society is to live within the rules and boundaries that society creates.

Another way to say it: you can't suggest 'The gov can't tell me I can't do that' without basing your argument on what is wrong with what the government is suggesting. Its like saying 'The government can't send me to jail'; well, yes they can. It is whether the reason they are sending you to jail is right or wrong.
 

RHCP

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Nurses looking after people who wish to die could be much better used helping babies who need their help to live.

Key phrase 'WISH to die' btw - I'm not saying that the former group don't deserve care if they wish to live.
 

muzby

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someone who takes nembutal to end their life doesn't suffer and isn't violated..

and when someone is raped, that is a violation of the body..

but if this rape leads to the birth of a baby, where does that fit on the spectrum?
 
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