Why is there little interest in the Kiwis in this forum?

[Penrose Warrior]

Maybe they just need a shit catchphrase to catch the general public’s interest

You don't think 'putting the Ki in the Wi' counts?!?!?!

I'm racking my brain trying to figure out what changed between say 2010ish and now, and honestly the most compelling thing I can come up with is the 2017 Tongan exodus and embarrassing Kiwi World Cup failure. I just think most people are inclined to pin that on Kidwell and Blair and understate how significant the disruption caused by the Tongan exodus was.

The other thing is maybe having no international footy from 2019-2022 due to COVID had a big impact.

2017 definitely stands as a turning point. I mean, I'm a couple of years older than you, and definitely life circumstance comes into it in the fact I just don't watch as much sport as I used to. But yeah, I remember being invested in the 2017 campaign, the exodus plus losing to Tonga, then Fiji in the quarter, we'd drawn with Scotland the previous year, only being able to attract David effing Kidwell as a coach, Adam Blair chewing gum and not caring in the Fiji presser etc.

2017 was also the last time there was a mid-year Test v Australia. I think that's relevant.

 

[Thatwasnthighref]

You don't think 'putting the Ki in the Wi' counts?!?!?!

2017 definitely stands as a turning point. I mean, I'm a couple of years older than you, and definitely life circumstance comes into it in the fact I just don't watch as much sport as I used to. But yeah, I remember being invested in the 2017 campaign, the exodus plus losing to Tonga, then Fiji in the quarter, we'd drawn with Scotland the previous year, only being able to attract David effing Kidwell as a coach, Adam Blair chewing gum and not caring in the Fiji presser etc.

2017 was also the last time there was a mid-year Test v Australia. I think that's relevant.

2017 was also SJ's 'youse got your wish' moment wasnt it?

Looking back now, yea I think you're right. '17 feels like the tipping point.

Tongan boys switching, the Kiwis bombing, Blair's DGAF attitude and SJ's clanger afterwards... all added up, it would've felt like players had stopped caring about the jersey. The sort of stuff that switches fans off.

 

[Beavers Headgear]

It might be silly to say, but for me, although we had some success throughout it, the Kearney era took some shine off it for me. Hated the way he just cast players out of having any chance to get picked, to the point he was happy to bascially give away a test series in the UK with his selections.

The prime example of that was Benji Marshall, one of our all time greats, just tossed aside like he was nothing. When Maguire finally picked him again, watching the emotion and tears streaming down his face during the anthem is a kiwi moment I’ll never forget

They did a fantastic job in Christchurch this time around making the squad available and accessible to the fans, which can only help connection. Watching the Mark Graham doco today, wow it was amazing to see the scenes in the mid 80s at Carlaw Park. Great story from Lowe as well how the side was down in the dumps and doubting themselves, so he chucked the entire squad on the bus and told them he was taking them to Queen St, and unbeknownst to the team, he has wised up all the radio stations in advance and the team got a huge lift coming off the bus.

 

[Beavers Headgear]

2017 was also SJ's 'youse got your wish' moment wasnt it?

Looking back now, yea I think you're right. '17 feels like the tipping point.

Tongan boys switching, the Kiwis bombing, Blair's DGAF attitude and SJ's clanger afterwards... all added up, it would've felt like players had stopped caring about the jersey. The sort of stuff that switches fans off.

That SJ comment turned me off him completely tbh, was so poor

 

[Blair]

We need more competition, it can't just be the Kangaroos (whose fans have seriously lost interest too) and the plastic Tongans, full of guilt because their parents and grandparents migrated to Australia and New Zealand for a better life.

We need Great Britain again, coming down for three-test tours (and playing 'Ashes' with Australia). We need the quite good France of yesteryear. We needed a South Africa, an Ireland, an Argentina.

Just on the Tongans again. It's been mentioned that the Samoans haven't jumped ship the way the Tongans have. I'm thinking there's something deeper in that, being Samoans are the more patriotic New Zealanders. Our two countries have a closer bond.

 

[Wheeled Warrior]

Just on the Tongans again. It's been mentioned that the Samoans haven't jumped ship the way the Tongans have. I'm thinking there's something deeper in that, being Samoans are the more patriotic New Zealanders. Our two countries have a closer bond.

I have great respect for the Samoans who remained loyal to the Kiwis. I also admire how Whyte stayed with us, even though he could have joined the other turncoats in red.

 

[Rich102]

For me the lack of interest here and in general is down to the NZRL.

Their lack of investment in time or effort, for a national sporting body, is jaw dropping.
Look at their coaches. I just took 1994 to 2023: (30 years 9 coaches. )
Wins Draws Losses
Frank Endacott 1994- 2000 22 2 1
Gary Freeman 2001-2002 1 0 2
Daniel Anderson 2003- 2005 1 1 6
Brian McLennan 2005-2007 5 0 7
Gary Kemble 2007 1 0 4
Steven Kearney 2008 -2016 23 1 18
David Kidwell 2016 - 2017 3 1 6
Michael Maguire 2018- 2023 5 2 3
Stacey Jones

This doesn't tell the whole story. To get a better picture you would need to rate the opposition, which I haven't time for at the moment.
But just on the above Endacott, Kearney and Maguire are the only ones with more wins than losses. And proof, if required, that good players don't necessarily make good coaches.
So with a record of 61 wins, 7 draws and 47 losses in the last 30 years is it any wonder the Kiwi's are not firing up the fans.
The NRL needs to put some effort into this.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

Just on the Tongans again. It's been mentioned that the Samoans haven't jumped ship the way the Tongans have. I'm thinking there's something deeper in that, being Samoans are the more patriotic New Zealanders. Our two countries have a closer bond.

I absolutely do not have the qualifications to speak on this, but my impression is this is right.

Tongan nationalism and honestly, Tongan exceptionalism, seem to be a whole different best.

 

[Thatwasnthighref]

Just on the Tongans again. It's been mentioned that the Samoans haven't jumped ship the way the Tongans have. I'm thinking there's something deeper in that, being Samoans are the more patriotic New Zealanders. Our two countries have a closer bond.

You're right re: Samoan connection. I share the same the background as those boys - born here to immigrant parents, raised with lots of extended family and a very strong connection to the culture, but have a very very strong connection to NZ as well.

Its actually something I feel very lucky to have grown up with; literally feel like I have 2 home countries. But if I'd ever had the opportunity to pick one country to represent, it would've been NZ without question. Not because of the career prospects or money but because I'm a Kiwi. But then like many of the NZ-Samoan lads today, I would've wanted to represent the blue at some point, to honour my heritage. And I would've been equally proud doing both.

I don't why it may or may not be different for some of the Tongan boys. It would be interesting to hear from someone who lives it.

And just as interestingly, understanding why it seems different again for the Aussie-PI boys. Because, as you say, while there doesnt appear the same NZ connection for some of the Kiwi-Tongan lads (for whatever reason) its even less so for the Aussie domiciled lads of both PI nations. Origin obviously isn't a factor because they remain eligible regardless, yet they've moved in droves.

 

[JJ]

You're right re: Samoan connection. I share the same the background as those boys - born here to immigrant parents, raised with lots of extended family and a very strong connection to the culture, but have a very very strong connection to NZ as well.

Its actually something I feel very lucky to have grown up with; literally feel like I have 2 home countries. But if I'd ever had the opportunity to pick one country to represent, it would've been NZ without question. Not because of the career prospects or money but because I'm a Kiwi. But then like many of the NZ-Samoan lads today, I would've wanted to represent the blue at some point, to honour my heritage. And I would've been equally proud doing both.

I don't why it may or may not be different for some of the Tongan boys. It would be interesting to hear from someone who lives it.

And just as interestingly, understanding why it seems different again for the Aussie-PI boys. Because, as you say, while there doesnt appear the same NZ connection for some of the Kiwi-Tongan lads (for whatever reason) its even less so for the Aussie domiciled lads of both PI nations. Origin obviously isn't a factor because they remain eligible regardless, yet they've moved in droves.

Serious question…. Would you also understand the sense of betrayal that many Kiwis might feel?

it’s interesting I guess, as MV pointed out earlier that without NZ and Aust development systems there wouldn’t be Samoan and Tongan players at the highest level, but the same is true in football where the Spanish system for example was a big part of Messi becoming Messi, and many others are developed there, the Netherlands, UK etc… it’s long been the case that Welsh Irish and Scottish players might develop their games in England…

t

 

[Thatwasnthighref]

Serious question…. Would you also understand the sense of betrayal that many Kiwis might feel?

it’s interesting I guess, as MV pointed out earlier that without NZ and Aust development systems there wouldn’t be Samoan and Tongan players at the highest level, but the same is true in football where the Spanish system for example was a big part of Messi becoming Messi, and many others are developed there, the Netherlands, UK etc… it’s long been the case that Welsh Irish and Scottish players might develop their games in England…

t

I can understand a sense of betrayal, yes. But – and I know this’ll be an unpopular view - I don’t necessarily agree that it is.

I’m generalising here, there’s obviously edge cases that fall outside this thinking, but I don’t subscribe to the view that professional players have an obligation to the national game. Not for us at least; Aus have a much stronger case to argue though.

NZRL junior pathways get aspiring players into the shop window, so I can accept there’s some obligation there but that’s as far as it goes. No one is a test player in their mid-teens, and the majority of the investment that turns them into genuine test prospects comes from whatever professional club they end up with.

Of the 17 players that beat the Roos 30-zip last year, only Papalii was ‘locally’ raised. And even then, he was playing 1st XV for MAGS (and was all set for an SR contract) when picked up by the Warriors. So NZR could arguably take as much credit for his pre-Warriors development.

Everyone else moved to Aus in their teens once signed, or even earlier to play in the school system, or even as kids.

Should there be some kind of moral obligation given the economic opportunities afforded to their parents when they first moved here? I’d disagree even more strongly on that, but that’s a much broader conversation.

But from a professional league player perspective specifically, I don’t think they owe us, or the game, anything. Sure they’ve made good out of the game, but the game has also made good – very good - out of them. It’s a near billion-dollar industry, and no one is getting a free ride.

 

[Matua]

I can understand a sense of betrayal, yes. But – and I know this’ll be an unpopular view - I don’t necessarily agree that it is.

I’m generalising here, there’s obviously edge cases that fall outside this thinking, but I don’t subscribe to the view that professional players have an obligation to the national game. Not for us at least; Aus have a much stronger case to argue though.

NZRL junior pathways get aspiring players into the shop window, so I can accept there’s some obligation there but that’s as far as it goes. No one is a test player in their mid-teens, and the majority of the investment that turns them into genuine test prospects comes from whatever professional club they end up with.

Of the 17 players that beat the Roos 30-zip last year, only Papalii was ‘locally’ raised. And even then, he was playing 1st XV for MAGS (and was all set for an SR contract) when picked up by the Warriors. So NZR could arguably take as much credit for his pre-Warriors development.

Everyone else moved to Aus in their teens once signed, or even earlier to play in the school system, or even as kids.

Should there be some kind of moral obligation given the economic opportunities afforded to their parents when they first moved here? I’d disagree even more strongly on that, but that’s a much broader conversation.

But from a professional league player perspective specifically, I don’t think they owe us, or the game, anything. Sure they’ve made good out of the game, but the game has also made good – very good - out of them. It’s a near billion-dollar industry, and no one is getting a free ride.

While I think I can kind of see where you're coming from I think this view essentially says screw international league, the NRL is king and it's all that matters (I may be wrong and have misinterpreted your post though ).

I don't think national connection rests on development, if that's the case what's the point of international league?

The clubs aren't taking players and developing them out of the goodness of their hearts, they're commodities and if they don't meet the grade for the club they'll punt them. There's no moral obligation on a player to a club.

Also I'm not saying that players have a moral obligation to NZ if from here, but club development shouldn't enter into it at all.

 

[Matua]

Would you also understand the sense of betrayal that many Kiwis might feel?

While annoyed I don't really feel betrayal (and all defectors become dead to me. I dislike defectors more than players who choose the PIs from the outset). My main issue is with the origin rules specifically favouring the PI teams.

 

[JJ]

While I think I can kind of see where you're coming from I think this view essentially says screw international league, the NRL is king and it's all that matters (I may be wrong and have misinterpreted your post though ).

I don't think national connection rests on development, if that's the case what's the point of international league?

The clubs aren't taking players and developing them out of the goodness of their hearts, they're commodities and if they don't meet the grade for the club they'll punt them. There's no moral obligation on a player to a club.

Also I'm not saying that players have a moral obligation to NZ if from here, but club development shouldn't enter into it at all.

no my view as such, just putting a perspective out there

 

[JJ]

While annoyed I don't really feel betrayal (and all defectors become dead to me. I dislike defectors more than players who choose the PIs from the outset). My main issue is with the origin rules specifically favouring the PI teams.

Yep, a case of switching was outlined, I'm of the view that if you play for one country that should probably be it, or with a lengthy stand down...

That said, if we want international league to thrive then it's good to have more than three competitive teams - and as TWHR notes, these kids have complex lives - born in one of the Islands, NZ, or Aust, early life in one of those three, and the key components of their development as a player undertaken in Aust... I get Tamou's decision, asd I got Thorn's, but I disliked Thorn's changing to NZ for rugby because of the relative status, I dislike JT etc changing midstream, but like with Luai is doing, and the reality is that does fit with the intention of origin rules - amusingly I see Leniu is suggesting an Islands Origin concept... brah, Origin is where you entered grade, and Tonga playing Samoa is an international...

 

[Thatwasnthighref]

While I think I can kind of see where you're coming from I think this view essentially says screw international league, the NRL is king and it's all that matters (I may be wrong and have misinterpreted your post though ).

I don't think national connection rests on development, if that's the case what's the point of international league?

The clubs aren't taking players and developing them out of the goodness of their hearts, they're commodities and if they don't meet the grade for the club they'll punt them. There's no moral obligation on a player to a club.

Also I'm not saying that players have a moral obligation to NZ if from here, but club development shouldn't enter into it at all.

Yep fair points. And FWIW, I'm definitely not saying NRL is all that matters, not at all. I posted earlier I've always followed the boys religiously, despite them resembling my golf game far more than I'd like i.e. massively disappointing most times but capable of the odd surprise that keeps me coming back for more punishment.

And I only mentioned the development aspect because that was mentioned in other posts, where it was suggested without AU/NZ development/pathways, the PI teams wouldn't have players. Otherwise I agree; NRL clubs are commercial entities, there's absolutely no player obligation to them in a nationalistic sense.

But if we agree on that, and we also agree there's no moral obligation as such, and we also accept (within reason) that the NZRL is responsible for 4/5 of fk all of a player's professional development, what then drives the expectation of national loyalty, and feeling of betrayal when its not shown?

And please bear in mind - I'm not questioning or challenging anyone's right to feel that way. Its a sentiment I've seen expressed in other posts and I've never challenged it before. In fact only brought it up now because I was asked. But I'll admit, its not something I fully understand either.