Widdop

[Saints Forever]

Duges is a running fullback, he is not a ball player. You are either a natural or you are not. It's not an easy skill to learn.

If they manage to coach Duges to become Darius Boyd I will applaud the coaching staff all day.

If they were unable to teach Duges this skill in preseason, do not expect them to succeed now.

Therefore Mary needs to build a game plan whereby someone acts as a ball player for Duges, ala Billy Smith for Rod Reddy and Barry Beath.

 

[BennyV]

Two five eighths don't work well when there is no creative or ball playing presence/threat in the middle of the field. Opposition teams already know to move wide to cover whatever Widdop and Marshall are trying to do.

Since its not fullback, needs to be either lock or hooker. Dont have either of fhese at the moment, and its what we should be addressing.

 

[stgill2001]

Mitch rein has been very good.

 

[ellskimore]

Mitch rein has been very good.

I agree. I'm happy with the way Mary has used the hookers. Let's face it, L'Estrange doesn't have the impact of Rein. Rein's dummy half running has been a factor in our last two wins.

*Awaits barrage of people telling me I'm wrong*

 

[BennyV]

I agree. I'm happy with the way Mary has used the hookers. Let's face it, L'Estrange doesn't have the impact of Rein. Rein's dummy half running has been a factor in our last two wins.

*Awaits barrage of people telling me I'm wrong*

While thats true, Reins poor service and decison making was a factor in our opening two losses.

I'm happy with the way they are playing together, but I'd still prefer we stay in the market for a long term hooker.

 

[Country Dragon]

While thats true, Reins poor service and decison making was a factor in our opening two losses.

I'm happy with the way they are playing together, but I'd still prefer we stay in the market for a long term hooker.

Last night was Le Strange's worst display in the red v, still no where near Reins average display of the last couple of seasons!

 

[Dragon66]

Since its not fullback, needs to be either lock or hooker. Dont have either of fhese at the moment, and its what we should be addressing.

Benny, love your passion about Duges at fullback. Only issue is that you seem to focus only on his positives and never on his deficiencies, which are major.

His inability to off load with precision to supporting players. Rarely runs into a gap, more likely to try and smash through defenders. His smash and crash style of play that sees him go down injured most games, and is almost certain to see he spends some time on the sidelines.

He did great things last night but his pass to Nighty that resulted in a try would not have been scored by most wingers in the game today. He turned over possession a couple of other times because of his limited ball skills. He still has trouble with positioning himself as a support player because he lacks that instinctive footballing ability.

As a centre he stays in position and the ball players will find him, his defence is outstanding because he is a fierce competitor, and because he is posted wide he has a chance to bust the defensive line and draw defenders and linking with his winger with that one handed flick pass ala Mark Gasnier.

No need to respond I'm just posting this to add to the debate about Duges for our fellow posters. I certainly respect your opinion on this issue, I just choose to agree to disagree.

 

[BennyV]

Benny, love your passion about Duges at fullback. Only issue is that you seem to focus only on his positives and never on his deficiencies, which are major.

His inability to off load with precision to supporting players. Rarely runs into a gap, more likely to try and smash through defenders. His smash and crash style of play that sees him go down injured most games, and is almost certain to see he spends some time on the sidelines.

He did great things last night but his pass to Nighty that resulted in a try would not have been scored by most wingers in the game today. He turned over possession a couple of other times because of his limited ball skills. He still has trouble with positioning himself as a support player because he lacks that instinctive footballing ability.

As a centre he stays in position and the ball players will find him, his defence is outstanding because he is a fierce competitor, and because he is posted wide he has a chance to bust the defensive line and draw defenders and linking with his winger with that one handed flick pass ala Mark Gasnier.

No need to respond I'm just posting this to add to the debate about Duges for our fellow posters. I certainly respect your opinion on this issue, I just choose to agree to disagree.

Look i get that. The guy makes a good centre. But so does Greg Inglis.

Give me a destructive fullback any day over a destructive centre. The guy is on huge coin, is a marquee player and is by far the most dangerous attacker we have. Should be touching the ball as much as possible.

As I've said, a good coaching team could work aroind those deficiencies.

 

[BlackDuckSaint]

Look i get that. The guy makes a good centre. But so does Greg Inglis.

Give me a destructive fullback any day over a destructive centre. The guy is on huge coin, is a marquee player and is by far the most dangerous attacker we have. Should be touching the ball as much as possible.

As I've said, a good coaching team could work aroind those deficiencies.

Lets not forget that noone in the NRL returns the ball as well as Dugan. He puts us in a great position for the rest of the set because of his kick returns.

 

[mickeylane]

I can't believe everyone is arguing the merits of Josh Dugan as a FB... He's going to be the SOO fullback and he will beat the inform Moylan, Stewart, etc to the position barring injury...

There's no argument the guy is the gun FB behind Inglis because that's what the SOO status gives you.. A top 2 ranking.. Regarding his various skills he has or hasn't got is a bullshit argument .

He's a tackle busting FB not a ball handling FB... No different to comparing Sam Burgess to Glen Stewart who replaced him at Souths.. Different skills and different impacts...

Get back to the subject matter Widdup - when he was playing at Melbourne u didn't even notice him playing behind Cronk.. Who's decided he has to be our playmaker over Marshall... Let's be serious Widdup is a steady player who does the basics well THATS ALL!!!

He's not a game breaker nor is he a highly organising player..

Marshall is the playmaker 5/8 full stop.. McGregor has to get this right sooner rather than later..

 

[tumbidragon]

While thats true, Reins poor service and decison making was a factor in our opening two losses.

I'm happy with the way they are playing together, but I'd still prefer we stay in the market for a long term hooker.

Comes down to good coaching ;-)
Giving him that 1st and last stint has been paying dividends over the past fortnight. He's been killing them in the last 20. Hats off to Mary, whether intentional or not...

 

[Dragon66]

Look i get that. The guy makes a good centre. But so does Greg Inglis.

Give me a destructive fullback any day over a destructive centre. The guy is on huge coin, is a marquee player and is by far the most dangerous attacker we have. Should be touching the ball as much as possible.

As I've said, a good coaching team could work aroind those deficiencies.

Benny, that's my point.

 

[rainman44]

I agree. I'm happy with the way Mary has used the hookers. Let's face it, L'Estrange doesn't have the impact of Rein. Rein's dummy half running has been a factor in our last two wins.

*Awaits barrage of people telling me I'm wrong*

Your right the last two weeks he has been good but he still has a few wrong options a game which cost us most of the times. A couple of good runs does not make him.

 

[coast_dragons]

Rein isn't the only player taking the wrong options you can name several players who take the wrong options every single game.

I guess thats the reason for such disjointed options inside the 20 which is still an issue and certainly needs to be fixed.

 

[blacksafake]

I didnt say he cant coach in that statement, I said its poor coaching. Its bleedingly obvious that the attacking plan revolves around the fullback sweep play, but Dugan doesnt have the awareness or passing game at the moment to be effective (among other shortcomings in the team and structure, such as timing and angles of all players). So theres a few conclusions:

1) Those coaching think it is the way to attack regardless of the players' strengths and limitations. They are just persisting, even though its cleary not working. This is poor coaching.

2) They are trying to teach Dugan how to pick and throw his passes properly for the play to work. Its not effective. Given the natural talent Dugan has, and some of the ballplaying ability that he showed at Canberra, hard to believe he is at fault. More likely, its poor coaching methods.

3) Either because of or in spite of either of the points above, the coaching staff refuse to come up with a more effective game plan that utilises the strengths and miinimises the effects of their limitations. This is poor coaching.

I'm open to suggestions as to how the coaching staff can wipe their hands of this, because at this point i cant see It. The fact is that we have a highly paid, extremely talented player who excels in all aspects of the modern day fullback except for natural passing ability, and we are utilising a game plan that exploits his inefficiency, rather than highlighting his many upsides. You tell me who's problem that is to fix.

Well said BV;-)

 

[Redvpassion]

Mitch rein has been very good.

Maybe Rein not playing 80 mins really benefits his game or having another back up hooker on the bench has maybe woken him up that he may lose his spot in the starting team.

This could be what's possibly changed his game.

 

[Twenty10]

Maybe Rein not playing 80 mins really benefits his game or having another back up hooker on the bench has maybe woken him up that he may lose his spot in the starting team.

This could be what's possibly changed his game.

I agree with this

 

[God-King Dean]

I remember in 2009 we used the same sweep play. But when it got to Boyd he wasn't able to pass, so the play was stifled. Either due his lack of confident in his passing or he flat out couldn't pass.

In the 2010 preseason, it was obvious he was made to work on it, & we all saw how well he played.

I was hoping that what Dugan would be made to work on... alas. There's also the issue of where we choose to perform the play. When it worked for us, we did it in the middle of the field, where the defence was evenly distributed on either side of the ruck. Since 2012, we've insisted on doing it about a 20m in from the side line, giving the defence a chance to slide. Most of the time, our fullback doesn't even have the option to pass.

 

[BennyV]

I remember in 2009 we used the same sweep play. But when it got to Boyd he wasn't able to pass, so the play was stifled. Either due his lack of confident in his passing or he flat out couldn't pass.

In the 2010 preseason, it was obvious he was made to work on it, & we all saw how well he played.

I was hoping that what Dugan would be made to work on... alas. There's also the issue of where we choose to perform the play. When it worked for us, we did it in the middle of the field, where the defence was evenly distributed on either side of the ruck. Since 2012, we've insisted on doing it about a 20m in from the side line, giving the defence a chance to slide. Most of the time, our fullback doesn't even have the option to pass.

Lots of teams use various forms of thjs play, but the difference is that they do it at soeed and the receiver straightens up as soon as he gets the ball. We seem to constantly be doing this at slow pace and running on an angle towards the corner post, leaving the centre and winger with no room.

My personal favourite is the roosters version; 2 front runners timed perfectly so that they are genuine options for the half the take, fullback running close so he has the option to hit the gap, all within a small area - almost always leaves the winger unmarked.

 

[God-King Dean]

Lots of teams use various forms of thjs play, but the difference is that they do it at soeed and the receiver straightens up as soon as he gets the ball. We seem to constantly be doing this at slow pace and running on an angle towards the corner post, leaving the centre and winger with no room.

Yep.
Hornby & Creagh would be running straight, forcing the defenders to brace themselves, standing still. Boyd would run outwards on an angle, creating an overlap.

My personal favourite is the roosters version; 2 front runners timed perfectly so that they are genuine options for the half the take, fullback running close so he has the option to hit the gap, all within a small area - almost always leaves the winger unmarked.

Great play. I like how the front runners run at the 'A defender' on either side of his shoulder, so the passer could go either option. The fullback coming of his shoulder is running outwards, so 'B defender' is put in 2 minds.