Hogan Joins TNA

[Big Pete]

Were they produced by TNA or weren't they?

Mind you I consider producing making your national television debut so we may differ there. Most of those listed made their national debut with other companies effectively being produced by them.

The thing I found funny was that Ari forgot about the most obvious example in Abyss. Despite his inactivity, Monty Brown also springs to mind.

To answer your question Mis,

John Cena, Brock Lesnar, Kurt Angle, Bobby Lashley, Randy Orton, Batista (was originally trained by the WCW but was told he would never make it, finished his development with the WWE and made his tv debut on Smackdown), John Morrison, The Miz, Mr. Kennedy, Umaga, Christian, Jeff Hardy etc.

 

[Misanthrope]

Kennedy, Umaga, Christian, and The Hardyz got their starts elsewhere. And what counts as a 'national debut'? Angle appeared on ECW TV before he was in the WWE. And none of the TNA guys listed as being from NWA could be considered national, since NWA is divided up into regional promotions.

 

[Ari Gold]

- AJ Styles - Was with a stack of promotions including WCW before joining TNA.
- Hernandez - Worked for a few NWA promotions and even wrestled for the WWE before joining TNA.
- Eric Young - Wrestled for the WWE before going to TNA. Not much of a talent either.
- Matt Morgan - Are you having a lend? :lol:
- Beer Money - James Storm began with WCW. Robert Roode is the only one you listed who began his national career with TNA.

I'm not sure if we're on the same page, i'm arguing that TNA pushes it's young talent harder than WWE.
Just because you debut for a company doesn't mean you are developed or pushed by them.

By your understanding, the following were produced and developed by TNA; CM Punk, Mr Kennedy, Mickie James, Umaga etc.

Oh and Matt Morgan was to..to..totally repackaged in TNA, therefore TNA can claim the rights to having developed him.

 

[Big Pete]

Where did they get their starts Mis?

Angle refused to be apart of the show he was spotted in because of Raven's antics. He got his first real start with the WWE.

Ari, read my post, I argued that they were already produced by other companies. They may of been used more effectively by TNA but they certainly weren't produced by TNA.

 

[Misanthrope]

Mr. Kennedy worked in TNA before WWE. And no, I don't include untelevised dark matches. Edge and Christian both started in ECWA, and the Hardys both featured in their own promotion (OMEGA) before signing.

Umaga trained with WWE but debuted on air in TNA as part of the Island Boys before he returned to the WWE (via NJPW).

In my eyes, a guy is developed by the company that puts in the effort to promote them. By that definition, Kennedy would be a WWE guy even though he started in TNA. But, your definition seems to rule out any guy who ever wrestled anywhere before, so I'm not sure who started where. I mean, Cena started in UPW before he came through WWE...

 

[Big Pete]

Last time I checked Sunday Night Heat and Velocity were national broadcasts, ECWA, Omega and UPW weren't.

Under my guidelines, it's where they made their national television debut which I believe is fair.

 

[Misanthrope]

That's all well and good for contracted wrestlers, but not for guys working dark or trial matches. The fact that they never got contracts would indicate that WWE didn't want them, didn't train them, and for the most part, missed the boat on them. If they were developmental talents, I could maybe accept your point, but the guys you listed as questionable TNA guys weren't.

 

[Big Pete]

Which would mean Kennedy was never with TNA ending up as a WWE product.

 

[Misanthrope]

And Hernandez, Young, and Beer Money would be TNA products.

In my eyes, a guy is a 'home grown' talent when he is used. Styles might have been a WCW talent, but his tenure was brief and basically amounted to one major appearance and zero push.

 

[Big Pete]

James Storm was under contract with WCW.

Leaving Young, Roode and Hernandez the only talents produced on Ari's list and I'd only be impressed with two of those names and only two of them (not the same two) have been given decent pushes as of late. The third is getting beaten by a pack of fatties, a gladiator and a generic Brit named Doug.

 

[Misanthrope]

James Storm was under contract with WCW.

And that's where our view of what a local talent is differs. Storm never received a push and worked solely as an enhancement talent. The fact is guys like Styles, Joe, Daniels, Homicide, Hernandez, MCMG, Abyss, Storm, Roode, and Morgan are TNA products because they're guys who gained most or all of their exposure with the company. Unfortunately, ROH doesn't yet qualify as it's only recently earned national television coverage.

At the same time, guys like the Hardyz, Christian, and Edge can be classified as WWE talents. Hell, Steve Austin and Triple H began their careers and were contracted, televised workers with WCW - but you'd be hard pressed to find a single person who didn't call them WWF/E products.

 

[Big Pete]

This is where I was waiting for you to actually criticise my theory on wrestler production, in regards to when a wrestler actually receive their gimmick. The best example would've been Raven and how he started in WCW (I think?) before eventually ending up in ECW where he became known as Raven.

I'd just argue that most of the TNA guys don't have a gimmick or persona. If anything they were just pushed harder.

ROH products (dvds) were available nationally, I know, it doesn't qualify under what I originally posted but they did have a national audience in that respect, meaning they qualified.

I'll let you counter this post before we get back onto topic.

 

[Misanthrope]

I'd just argue that most of the TNA guys don't have a gimmick or persona. If anything they were just pushed harder.

And I'd counter that you clearly don't follow the TNA product very closely if you honestly believe none of them have personas. With the possible exception of Styles (whose gimmick is no less a gimmick than Chris Benoit, Dean Malenko, or pretty much any other wrestler who got over on talent rather than a catch phrase) - who is it that you think has no personality/gimmick?

 

[Big Pete]

Just to answer your last question.

All of the ROH guys developed their persona in ROH. (Unless you call drawing a p**** on your face a gimmick.)

Morgan hasn't changed significantly since leaving the E. He's just known as the blueprint (and doesn't have to stutter to get noticed..though originally he didn't when he was apart of team Brock...unless I'm mistaken?).

 

[Misanthrope]

That doesn't really address the likes of Beer Money, Hernandez, Eric Young etc. And as for the ROH gimmicks, Styles and Joe were using their current gimmicks well before their ROH days. The only one with a legitimate case was Daniels with his Fallen Angel gimmick.

As for Morgan, I've not tried to argue that he was a TNA product. That was Ari's statement. He's definitely been far better utilized in TNA.

 

[Big Pete]

Obviously those I failed to comment on I conceeded. Beer Money is a fun gimmick yet they're not being pushed properly (they were, then TNA decided to throw the World Elite down our throat, Team 3D winning the other title above BM was also a joke).

Hernandez is doing well at this stage but hopefully he doesn't get lost in the shuffle (or throw a world title shot down the drain...).

Eric Young is such an average sports entertainer/professional wreslter that it'd take real desperation to take credit for him.

 

[Misanthrope]

Eric Young is such an average sports entertainer/professional wreslter that it'd take real desperation to take credit for him.

I think he's fine as a worker, and the fans obviously responded to him as a babyface. TNA can't really be blamed for giving the fans what they wanted.

 

[Stonecutter]

Man I love TNA right now. WWE is completely finished for me. Only reason I even think about watching WWE is for Micheals, Orton, Taker etc. Apart from them the rest of the show is a borefest on all 3 programs.

 

[Ari Gold]

Obviously those I failed to comment on I conceeded. Beer Money is a fun gimmick yet they're not being pushed properly (they were, then TNA decided to throw the World Elite down our throat, Team 3D winning the other title above BM was also a joke).

Hernandez is doing well at this stage but hopefully he doesn't get lost in the shuffle (or throw a world title shot down the drain...).

Eric Young is such an average sports entertainer/professional wreslter that it'd take real desperation to take credit for him.

Beer Money were champions in 2009 for how long?

Eric Young is awesome as head of WE, he is literally carrying that group.

 

[Big Pete]

Over two reigns, 136 Days.

Considering Old Man Steiner and Booker T held it for over ninety days it doesn't say much for the title. Beer Money Inc. are the best tag team in professional wrestling and they're not getting the exposure they deserve.

Young is doing a fine job as the mouth piece for the WE but he's just so plain. Shelley and Sabin among others deserved the rub before Young did.

Also fans in the Impact Zone may react to Eric Young but he's apart of the reason why nobody cares for the product.