Redcliffe most likely to be the next expansion team according to the Telegraph

[Perth Red]

I still dont see why the NRL cant just build their own club and sell that with demands that they keep the brand and commit to Suncorp...

Sydney RL is rooted because of partisan hacks with more ego than sense. Why risk the same thing happening to Brisbane?

Your making a big assumption that the nrl has the ability to start up a club! They had the titans and knights for a couple of seasons and they did nothing to turn them around from the financial basket cases they inherited.

 

[Perth Red]

That's a silly assumption to make.

If a consortium of accomplished businessmen comes along offering to pay a silly amount to secure a license, to invest all sorts of money and resources into the club and local RL, bankroll them for x amount of years, i.e. make a much better bid, then the NRL would be mad to turn them down in favour of the Pirates just because the NRL has structural link to them.



Of which all the evidence suggests the Dolphins don't plan to do, so yeah...

The nrlwa has a group of businessmen already put together to take the Pirates bid to reality if the nrl decides to expand. The risk of going to open market is you end up with a rich dckhead like tony sage winning the bid and running a sht show with a nob like Benny Elias in charge.
.

 

[The Great Dane]

The nrlwa has a group of businessmen already put together to take the Pirates bid to reality if the nrl decides to expand. The risk of going to open market is you end up with a rich dckhead like tony sage winning the bid and running a sht show with a nob like Benny Elias in charge.
.

None of that changes the fact that it's stupid to assume that the Pirates bid will be successful because the NRLWA owns it.

As I said before, if another consortium comes along offering a better deal then the Pirates then the NRL would be mad to turn it down in favour of an inferior bid just because that inferior bid is connected to the NRLWA.

 

[The Great Dane]

Your making a big assumption that the nrl has the ability to start up a club! They had the titans and knights for a couple of seasons and they did nothing to turn them around from the financial basket cases they inherited.

Sports organisations do it all the time, look at GWS, the Suns, and WSW, all are manufactured clubs, it's what the NRLWA is trying to do with the Pirates as well. If the NRL wanted to there's nothing stopping them from doing the same.

BTW maintaining a club while facilitating the sale of it's license onto new owners isn't really manufacturing a club, but even so if the NRL hadn't have done what they did then in both cases the clubs probably would have folded and the NRL would have been up shit creek trying to provide eight games a week to broadcasters.
Though I probably would have handled the situations differently (for example I never would have sold the Titans back to the people who had just played a big part in running them into the ground), bagging the NRL for how they went is a bit harsh considering the situation.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

None of that changes the fact that it's stupid to assume that the Pirates bid will be successful because the NRLWA owns it.

As I said before, if another consortium comes along offering a better deal then the Pirates then the NRL would be mad to turn it down in favour of an inferior bid just because that inferior bid is connected to the NRLWA.

Well considering that the NRLWA is essentially the NRL it is fairly reasonable to assume that they will be the Perth NRL club if and when that happens

 

[titoelcolombiano]

That's a silly assumption to make.

If a consortium of accomplished businessmen comes along offering to pay a silly amount to secure a license, to invest all sorts of money and resources into the club and local RL, bankroll them for x amount of years, i.e. make a much better bid, then the NRL would be mad to turn them down in favour of the Pirates just because the NRL has structural link to them.



Of which all the evidence suggests the Dolphins don't plan to do, so yeah...

I fear for your mental health when the Redcliffe Dolphins and West Coast Pirates aré admitted to the NRL - you’ll have a meltdown mate

 

[The Great Dane]

I fear for your mental health when the Redcliffe Dolphins and West Coast Pirates aré admitted to the NRL - you’ll have a meltdown mate

I'll have no issues whatsoever if the Pirates get admitted, and as long as it's under the right circumstances I'll have no issues with Redcliffe either.

What I have a problem with is people asserting things about bids to be fact when there's no reason (let alone evidence) to believe that it is a fact, and people making stupid proclamations that this or that bid will certainly be granted a license when there's no concrete reason to believe that to be the case.

Not only are both actions just stupid wastes of time, but both can cause problems later on.

 

[The Great Dane]

Well considering that the NRLWA is essentially the NRL it is fairly reasonable to assume that they will be the Perth NRL club if and when that happens

Let's say that you ran a company, now lets say that your company wanted to e.g. print some leaflets for an event.

Now lets say that your company had all the infrastructure to print the leaflets, but it was going to cost your company $1.50 a leaflet where as if you outsourced it to a printing company it'd only cost you $1.00 a leaflet, you'd be mad to print them yourself when you could get them cheaper wouldn't you?

Now lets take that principal and apply it to Perth bids.

So lets say that another bid comes along in Perth and they offer everything that the Pirates offer, but not only will they do it at less cost to the NRL it's self but they'll pay the NRL for the privilege to do it, now lets assume that the NRL dots the i's and crosses the t's and confirms that everything checks out with this new bid, under those circumstances the NRL would be absolutely mad to grant the Pirates a license over that new bid!
That is only one reason why saying things like the Pirates are a shoo-in because the NRL owns them is just f**king stupid.

It's way to early in the process to call it for any bid team because this early in the process we don't actually know who is and isn't bidding let alone which bid is better than the others. You are literally trying to come to conclusions without all the data.

In this case it's literally like you are trying to back a horse in a race before you know which horses are actually in the race, and not only is it not helpful it's stupid because it builds people up for a big let down.

 

[Perth Red]

Sports organisations do it all the time, look at GWS, the Suns, and WSW, all are manufactured clubs, it's what the NRLWA is trying to do with the Pirates as well. If the NRL wanted to there's nothing stopping them from doing the same.

BTW maintaining a club while facilitating the sale of it's license onto new owners isn't really manufacturing a club, but even so if the NRL hadn't have done what they did then in both cases the clubs probably would have folded and the NRL would have been up shit creek trying to provide eight games a week to broadcasters.
Though I probably would have handled the situations differently (for example I never would have sold the Titans back to the people who had just played a big part in running them into the ground), bagging the NRL for how they went is a bit harsh considering the situation.

I’m not saying they can’t do it, I’m saying if they have the ability to do it well! The knights and titans were losing more money each year under the nrl than previous owners! You’d think to maximise sale price the nrl could have got them in better shape?

 

[Perth Red]

Let's say that you ran a company, now lets say that your company wanted to e.g. print some leaflets for an event.

Now lets say that your company had all the infrastructure to print the leaflets, but it was going to cost your company $1.50 a leaflet where as if you outsourced it to a printing company it'd only cost you $1.00 a leaflet, you'd be mad to print them yourself when you could get them cheaper wouldn't you?

Now lets take that principal and apply it to Perth bids.

So lets say that another bid comes along in Perth and they offer everything that the Pirates offer, but not only will they do it at less cost to the NRL it's self but they'll pay the NRL for the privilege to do it, now lets assume that the NRL dots the i's and crosses the t's and confirms that everything checks out with this new bid, under those circumstances the NRL would be absolutely mad to grant the Pirates a license over that new bid!
That is only one reason why saying things like the Pirates are a shoo-in because the NRL owns them is just f**king stupid.

It's way to early in the process to call it for any bid team because this early in the process we don't actually know who is and isn't bidding let alone which bid is better than the others. You are literally trying to come to conclusions without all the data.

In this case it's literally like you are trying to back a horse in a race before you know which horses are actually in the race, and not only is it not helpful it's stupid because it builds people up for a big let down.

The biggest reasons they’d be favourites is cumins attachment to them. As long as we don’t get a Tony Sage owned 49’ers then I don’t really care who owns them or why they are called.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

Let's say that you ran a company, now lets say that your company wanted to e.g. print some leaflets for an event.

Now lets say that your company had all the infrastructure to print the leaflets, but it was going to cost your company $1.50 a leaflet where as if you outsourced it to a printing company it'd only cost you $1.00 a leaflet, you'd be mad to print them yourself when you could get them cheaper wouldn't you?

Now lets take that principal and apply it to Perth bids.

So lets say that another bid comes along in Perth and they offer everything that the Pirates offer, but not only will they do it at less cost to the NRL it's self but they'll pay the NRL for the privilege to do it, now lets assume that the NRL dots the i's and crosses the t's and confirms that everything checks out with this new bid, under those circumstances the NRL would be absolutely mad to grant the Pirates a license over that new bid!
That is only one reason why saying things like the Pirates are a shoo-in because the NRL owns them is just f**king stupid.

It's way to early in the process to call it for any bid team because this early in the process we don't actually know who is and isn't bidding let alone which bid is better than the others. You are literally trying to come to conclusions without all the data.

In this case it's literally like you are trying to back a horse in a race before you know which horses are actually in the race, and not only is it not helpful it's stupid because it builds people up for a big let down.

The difference is with Perth is that they are an actual functioning club with backers ready to jump on board. Why bother having them play in the NSW system if the plan is not to make them the Perth team when the time comes? They are wasting their money now if that is the case. And it's not just a simple case of needing a team as a pathway for Perth juniors because if that is the case New Zealand would have more representation in the second teir.

 

[The Great Dane]

The biggest reasons they’d be favourites is cumins attachment to them. As long as we don’t get a Tony Sage owned 49’ers then I don’t really care who owns them or why they are called.

I'm not arguing that the Pirates aren't currently the favourites if the NRL were to expand to Perth. I'm simply saying that there's and long time between now and if/when the NRL actually expands, and that not only is there no reason to believe that things couldn't change between now and then, but that they almost certainly will change to at least some degree between now and then.

Seriously, go and read about the last round of expansion in the A-league. There were bids like the Pirates that had been around forever and were considered certainties to get a license, then once the actually bidding process was announced a handful of bids nobody knew existed popped up in under 6 months, blew the older bids out of the water, and two of them won the licenses on offer.

There's no reason to believe that, or other similar scenarios, couldn't happen in the NRL as well.

 

[The Great Dane]

The difference is with Perth is that they are an actual functioning club with backers ready to jump on board. Why bother having them play in the NSW system if the plan is not to make them the Perth team when the time comes? They are wasting their money now if that is the case.

Yes they may be "favourites" now and the NRL may be hatching a plan to run them through the NSW system with an intent to get them into the NRL, but the key word in that sentence is now, and there is a long time between now and when the NRL will, hopefully, actually expand.

I seriously don't understand why you are struggling to understand what I'm saying, it's pretty simple: given the amount of time between now and if/when the NRL actually plans to expand there's plenty of time for change, even radical change, and because of that asserting that this or that bid has won or is a shoo-in to win is a fools game that is setting yourself, and anybody that listens, up for failure.

And it's not just a simple case of needing a team as a pathway for Perth juniors because if that is the case New Zealand would have more representation in the second teir.

I never even came close to suggesting that it was...

 

[Perth Red]

That may be the case IF they go to an open bid process. I suspect they may not. Especially for Perth. Look at how many buyers came forward for Titans or Knights, we arent soccer and dont seem to be able to generate that same amount of top end business interest in club ownership. Officially in the West we have seen three investors declare their interest, Cumins, Puddy and Sage. There may be more in the shadows waiting for an opportunity to bid but I doubt it. Either way the NRL needs to get moving and make a plan or there will not be enough time to get a club started up by 2022/23 for new TV deal.

 

[The Great Dane]

That may be the case IF they go to an open bid process. I suspect they may not. Especially for Perth.

If they don't go to an open bidding process, i.e. don't give everybody that is interested in a license a chance to state their case for a license, then they are idiots that get what they deserve.

Look at how many buyers came forward for Titans or Knights, we arent soccer and dont seem to be able to generate that same amount of top end business interest in club ownership.

There's no difference between RL and Soccer, there's just an big difference between buying a license for a new club and buying a failing business, namely it's extremely rare that a bunch of people come along offering stupid amounts of money for failing businesses that are in deep holes.

Another difference between the A-league and NRL is that when the A-league has sold licenses in recent times it's always been with an eye to make as much money as possible from the sale while still having a functioning club at the end of the process, where traditionally that hasn't been the case in RL, and nor should it be.

Officially in the West we have seen three investors declare their interest, Cumins, Puddy and Sage. There may be more in the shadows waiting for an opportunity to bid but I doubt it.

In Perth's case I doubt it as well, though there definitely are some groups in the background that have shown some interest, particularly the one that was briefly in talks with the Bears, so you never know.

However in Brisbane's case we know for a fact that there is a lot of interest in an NRL license swirling around in the background, whether or not that will amount to anything we don't know, but the point was that that potential is there and we shouldn't be ruling that potential out.

Either way the NRL needs to get moving and make a plan or there will not be enough time to get a club started up by 2022/23 for new TV deal.

Honestly if they are aiming for 2022/23, which I'm not sure that they actually are (we'll have to wait for Greenberg's report), then it's to late for a comprehensive plan for that round of expansion.

They don't really need a plan for 2022/23 anyway, just pick the two best bids from expansion markets.

I'm basically at the point where I think that comprehensive plans for the future the growth of the sport and expansion of the NRL and other competitions are a pipe dream. For whatever reason the NRL simply doesn't have the capability to plan that far ahead and anytime somebody joins the organisation that does have that capability they are pushed out the door.

 

[___]

My thoughts (feel free to disagree):

Next 2 teams:

Perth
North-Sydney/Central Coast

Further down the track:

2nd Brisbane team
Adelaide.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

Yes they may be "favourites" now and the NRL may be hatching a plan to run them through the NSW system with an intent to get them into the NRL, but the key word in that sentence is now, and there is a long time between now and when the NRL will, hopefully, actually expand.

I seriously don't understand why you are struggling to understand what I'm saying, it's pretty simple: given the amount of time between now and if/when the NRL actually plans to expand there's plenty of time for change, even radical change, and because of that asserting that this or that bid has won or is a shoo-in to win is a fools game that is setting yourself, and anybody that listens, up for failure.



I never even came close to suggesting that it was...

So, if the West Coast Pirates don't exist now in the NSW Cup system just as a pathway for WA Juniors (which we seem to agree on), then the only other purpose for them is that they will be the Perth team when / if the time comes for Perth expansion. If that is not the case, then the NRLWA (who are essentially the NRL) are flushing their money down the drain running this club now - why would they do that?

 

[The Great Dane]

So, if the West Coast Pirates don't exist now in the NSW Cup system just as a pathway for WA Juniors (which we seem to agree on), then the only other purpose for them is that they will be the Perth team when / if the time comes for Perth expansion. If that is not the case, then the NRLWA (who are essentially the NRL) are flushing their money down the drain running this club now - why would they do that?

I honestly don't even understand the point you are trying to make now.

Nobody promised the NRLWA an NRL license if they created a junior pathway through the NSW system, they've done that completely off their own back, so I don't understand why you think that entitles them to an NRL license.

Don't get me wrong, already having a juniors system more or less in place is great thing for their bid, but it's not the be all and end all, and honestly there's nothing stopping another club coming along and co-opting it should the Pirates bid fail.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

I honestly don't even understand the point you are trying to make now.

Nobody promised the NRLWA an NRL license if they created a junior pathway through the NSW system, they've done that completely off their own back, so I don't understand why you think that entitles them to an NRL license.

Don't get me wrong, already having a juniors system more or less in place is great thing for their bid, but it's not the be all and end all, and honestly there's nothing stopping another club coming along and co-opting it should the Pirates bid fail.

My point is that the NRLWA is essentially the NRL. The West Coast Pirates are run by the NRLWA (so essentially the NRL). Why would the NRL through their affiliate state create a Perth team, spend the money of running them in a NSW Cup lower division if the plan wasn't for them to be the Perth NRL team when the time comes? They would just save the money and wait for bids when they are ready.

 

[The Great Dane]

My point is that the NRLWA is essentially the NRL. The West Coast Pirates are run by the NRLWA (so essentially the NRL). Why would the NRL through their affiliate state create a Perth team, spend the money of running them in a NSW Cup lower division if the plan wasn't for them to be the Perth NRL team when the time comes? They would just save the money and wait for bids when they are ready.

The NRL didn't!

The Pirates (and most everything associated with them) were created independent of the NRL in 2012, long before the WARL was bought by the NRL, and the lower grade teams, which existed as Western Reds teams long before the re-brand to the Pirates anyway (for example they had a Ron Massey cup team way back in about 08, and if I remember correctly the S.G. ball team popped up about the same time), were all created with an eye to creating a clearer pathway for WA juniors to the NRL.

So yeah, the NRL had nothing to do with their creation, and whether or not the NRL plans to give the Pirates an NRL license getting rid of those juniors teams now would be a pointless regression for RL in WA, because no matter who owns and operates the NRL team that infrastructure will eventually need to exist for an NRL team in Perth to develop local juniors.

I also find the idea that they are a waste of money if they aren't leading up to an NRL team to be fascinating. Is creating a pathway for juniors from WA to the NRL not a valuable thing in it's own right?