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Messages
12,789
Her story was that they told her they were going to another night club.
Which is impossible to prove, hence the jury being split. She might be telling the truth, but it's her word against two men.

How many people on the jury are going to believe her sole intention that night was to go to a nightclub, get stuck into the piss and talk with 2 really attractive men who young women throw themselves over, leave with them in a car to attend another nightclub, get pissed some more, say goodbye and somehow find her way home on her own?

What was her intention?

How did she find herself in a bedroom with 2 really attractive blokes?

Those are the questions the jurors will be asking. If they find it all a bit "WTF, this doesn't add up" then they are well within their right to not reach a verdict.
 
Messages
12,789
I have 2 sons and a daughter.

So your daughter, are you raising your daughter that she can act however she wishes without any fear of consequence? Are you raising her with the lesson that she can act as promiscuous as she pleases, be as flirtatious as she likes at clubs, bars wherever and that will lead to a totally risk free fun time?

And if she is too young at this time, will you?

T-Boon's comment is spot on, there needs to be a discussion about women placing themselves in vulnerable situations. I don't go to the local supermarket at 10pm because I know it isn't a great place for safety at that time. Should I be able to go there safely and hit up K-Mart for my cheap imported products? Sure, but that don't make it so.

There is victim blaming, like if she didn't dress like that she wouldn't have been raped. And then there is the discussion around being safe, making sensible decisions that don't put you at risk.
Great post.

I am shorter than average and have serious health problems. I would be even more vulnerable than women to being attacked by a random stranger as thugs would view me as an easy target. Most people who are beat up and killed on the street are men. If I walked down an alley in Fortitude Valley at 2am and got beat up by a bunch of thugs then people would call me an idiot for being in such a dangerous place.

I don't whinge about not being able to go wherever I want at any time of the night. I just accept it's a shit world and no one is more responsible for my safety than me, so I don't do stupid things that would put me in jeopardy.
 
Messages
12,789
My thoughts and intentions regarding my daughter have, i think been made quite clear.
The idea that a women cannot act in a flirtatious or promiscuous manner without incuring great risk (you and i dont have this problem, curious thing that isnt it? Power imbalance is a cur... no f**king obvious thing) is precisely the problem i'd like society to attempt to address, rather than focus on what women should or should not do, id prefer to try to focus on how make men accountable for their behaviour.

My position is clear. I would like to focus on correcting the abhorent behaviour of potential perpetators. As is yours, who it would seem is interested in limited the attitudes and behaviours of potential victims.
You do realise that young women are not attracted to respectful men who aren't dangerous, yeah?

They like the rebellious bad boy who exudes confidence and has masculine traits such as above average height, strongly built frame, aggressive demeanor and can beat the shit out of anyone.

Studies have been done that show happy men who smile are less attractive to women than angry men who look aggressive.

http://bit.ly/sQz1i4

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/head-games/201305/the-allure-aggressive-men

Jordan Peterson said in a video that women hate safe men.

 
Last edited:

mongoose

Coach
Messages
11,361
You do realise that young women are not attracted to respectful men who aren't dangerous, yeah?

They like the rebellious bad boy who exudes confidence and has masculine traits such as above average height, strongly built frame, aggressive demeanor and can beat the shit out of anyone.

Studies have been done that show happy men who smile are less attractive to women than angry men who look aggressive.

http://bit.ly/sQz1i4

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/head-games/201305/the-allure-aggressive-men

Jordan Peterson said in a video that women hate safe men because they find them too feminine.

this is some incel rubbish dude.... sorry you're not a tall, traditionally masculine male but not all women are the same, just like not all men are the same.
 

Quicksilver

Bench
Messages
4,037
And yet Jordan Peterson is the biggest pansy I’ve ever seen.

The bloke can’t even digest a vegetable.
 
Messages
12,789
this is some incel rubbish dude.... sorry you're not a tall, traditionally masculine male but not all women are the same, just like not all men are the same.
No it isn't "incel rubbish". The second article I pointed to was written by a woman, FFS.

Are you calling her an incel?

There will always be exceptions to the rule, but it doesn't mean the rule doesn't exist.

Believe what you want. I don't care. I really don't. You live in a fantasy world.

I've seen too many cases of women saying what I just told you and men experiencing what I just told you to know it is true.
 
Messages
12,789
Vinita Mehta Ph.D., Ed.M.
Head Games

The Allure of Aggressive Men
A new study illuminates why women can find combativeness attractive.
Posted May 28, 2013

It's a question often asked when a man mistreats a woman: What does she see in him?

A study out of Germany sheds light on why aggressive males can be so appealing. It all begins with the vexing process of mating. According to Parental Investment Theory, reproduction is much more costly for females than it is for males. While women invest nine months in a pregnancy, a man's initial contribution to parenthood boils down to just a few minutes. Thus, women need to be particularly selective when it comes to choosing a mate. Aside from a man’s resources, his genetic gifts are decisive in the selection process. After all, in our ancestors' unpredictable environment, a hardy constitution went a long way in fulfilling evolution's ultimate aims: survival and reproduction.

Research has established that, generally speaking, women must choose between two types of men: dads and cads. On the one hand, dads are typically more commitment-oriented, warm, faithful, and reliable. Yet they are usually less handsome, charismatic, and dominant than his caddish counterparts. On the other hand, cads are sexier, with their narrow eyes and strong jaws—but they also tend to be flashy and exploitative of others. Even worse, these masculine men often embody the Dark Triad, a personality constellation that encompasses Machiavellianism, psychopathy, and narcissism. So, what in the world is appealing about these objectionable individuals? Quite simply, they possess high-quality genes that they will pass down to their future children. In turn, the thinking goes, women will maximize their reproductive success by choosing a macho man as a short-term mate for his genes, and a less masculine man with a warmer personality for a long-term, invested partner.

However, ovulation can make the choice between dads and cads particularly challenging. Research has revealed that during ovulation, women show a weakness for masculine men with high-quality genes. Studies consistently show that fertile women prefer men who display macho facial features and social dominance. In other words, they like bad boys. Building on these findings, Gilda Biebel of the University of Konstanz and her colleagues reasoned that evolution may have also favored men who went to war. Consequently, they wondered if aggression might also be a signal of genetic fitness.

Aggressive behavior comes in two forms. The first is “reactive–impulsive,” which are responses to external threats. The second is “appetitive-aggressive,” which is internally motivated. It is derived from the intrinsic pleasure that is associated with violence, hunting, and combat. In keeping with studies that have found women's preferences for “bad boys” and socially dominant men for short-term mating, the investigators wondered if appetitive aggressiveness might also be an advertisement of good genes. They also speculated that women may be drawn to truculent men during ovulation, when the interest in short-term mating for good genes is at its peak.

In order to test whether fertile women would show a greater preference for warrior types, Biebel and her team conducted an online survey of 1,212 German women. Participants read a fictional scenario of a soldier named “Wilko” who had returned from fighting a war in Afghanistan. From here, the women were instructed to complete three tasks. First, they had to consider Wilko for different types of relationships (i.e., a date, steady boyfriend, life partner, platonic friend, sexual affair, and one-night stand) along a seven-point scale from 0 (not at all) to 6 (most intensive). Second, they rated this fictitious soldier on a seven-point scale along the dimensions of: dominant/submissive; sexually attractive/sexually unattractive; soft/hard; feminine/masculine; rugged/delicate; tough/tender; bad/good; warm/cold; nice/awful; pleasant/unpleasant; friendly/aggressive; unintelligent/intelligent; and healthy/ill. Third, the women reported where they were in their menstrual cycle, in order to assess whether or not they were ovulating (they also identified if they were taking oral contraception).

What did the researchers find? Women preferred aggressive men as short-term mates, and particularly during ovulation. This finding builds on previous work demonstrating that women find male characteristics such as dominance and masculine facial features especially attractive when they are fertile. What's more, this study shows that the male signals of genetic fitness are not just physical, but behavioral as well. At the same time, it is important to underscore that these men were preferred as short-term mates. Dominant men who derive pleasure from being aggressive deliver scant relationship benefits because they pose a threat to the family, show decreased parental investment, and have affairs. Consequently, and as expected, the women in this study preferred less aggressive men for long-term relationships.

What can we learn from this study and related efforts? While it may be bewildering why a woman would fall for the charms of a bellicose man, there's an underlying logic that seems to explain at least part of it: She wants to extract his good genes for posterity. The research also uncovers that the attraction to socially dominant men isn't just psychological—it's undergirded by biology. So while the appeal of an aggressive man may be confusing on an emotional level, an evolutionary lens can bring these tangled motivations into clearer focus.

Vinita Mehta, Ph.D. is a licensed clinical psychologist in Washington, DC, and an expert on relationships, managing anxiety and stress, and building health and resilience. Dr. Mehta is also the author of the forthcoming book Paleo Love: How Our Stone Age Bodies Complicate Modern Relationships. Connect with Dr. Mehta on the web at drvinitamehta.com and on Twitter and Pinterest, and find Dr. Mehta's other Psychology Today posts here.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/head-games/201305/the-allure-aggressive-men
 

mongoose

Coach
Messages
11,361
Vinita Mehta Ph.D., Ed.M.
Head Games

The Allure of Aggressive Men
A new study illuminates why women can find combativeness attractive.
Posted May 28, 2013

It's a question often asked when a man mistreats a woman: What does she see in him?

A study out of Germany sheds light on why aggressive males can be so appealing. It all begins with the vexing process of mating. According to Parental Investment Theory, reproduction is much more costly for females than it is for males. While women invest nine months in a pregnancy, a man's initial contribution to parenthood boils down to just a few minutes. Thus, women need to be particularly selective when it comes to choosing a mate. Aside from a man’s resources, his genetic gifts are decisive in the selection process. After all, in our ancestors' unpredictable environment, a hardy constitution went a long way in fulfilling evolution's ultimate aims: survival and reproduction.

Research has established that, generally speaking, women must choose between two types of men: dads and cads. On the one hand, dads are typically more commitment-oriented, warm, faithful, and reliable. Yet they are usually less handsome, charismatic, and dominant than his caddish counterparts. On the other hand, cads are sexier, with their narrow eyes and strong jaws—but they also tend to be flashy and exploitative of others. Even worse, these masculine men often embody the Dark Triad, a personality constellation that encompasses Machiavellianism, psychopathy, and narcissism. So, what in the world is appealing about these objectionable individuals? Quite simply, they possess high-quality genes that they will pass down to their future children. In turn, the thinking goes, women will maximize their reproductive success by choosing a macho man as a short-term mate for his genes, and a less masculine man with a warmer personality for a long-term, invested partner.

However, ovulation can make the choice between dads and cads particularly challenging. Research has revealed that during ovulation, women show a weakness for masculine men with high-quality genes. Studies consistently show that fertile women prefer men who display macho facial features and social dominance. In other words, they like bad boys. Building on these findings, Gilda Biebel of the University of Konstanz and her colleagues reasoned that evolution may have also favored men who went to war. Consequently, they wondered if aggression might also be a signal of genetic fitness.

Aggressive behavior comes in two forms. The first is “reactive–impulsive,” which are responses to external threats. The second is “appetitive-aggressive,” which is internally motivated. It is derived from the intrinsic pleasure that is associated with violence, hunting, and combat. In keeping with studies that have found women's preferences for “bad boys” and socially dominant men for short-term mating, the investigators wondered if appetitive aggressiveness might also be an advertisement of good genes. They also speculated that women may be drawn to truculent men during ovulation, when the interest in short-term mating for good genes is at its peak.

In order to test whether fertile women would show a greater preference for warrior types, Biebel and her team conducted an online survey of 1,212 German women. Participants read a fictional scenario of a soldier named “Wilko” who had returned from fighting a war in Afghanistan. From here, the women were instructed to complete three tasks. First, they had to consider Wilko for different types of relationships (i.e., a date, steady boyfriend, life partner, platonic friend, sexual affair, and one-night stand) along a seven-point scale from 0 (not at all) to 6 (most intensive). Second, they rated this fictitious soldier on a seven-point scale along the dimensions of: dominant/submissive; sexually attractive/sexually unattractive; soft/hard; feminine/masculine; rugged/delicate; tough/tender; bad/good; warm/cold; nice/awful; pleasant/unpleasant; friendly/aggressive; unintelligent/intelligent; and healthy/ill. Third, the women reported where they were in their menstrual cycle, in order to assess whether or not they were ovulating (they also identified if they were taking oral contraception).

What did the researchers find? Women preferred aggressive men as short-term mates, and particularly during ovulation. This finding builds on previous work demonstrating that women find male characteristics such as dominance and masculine facial features especially attractive when they are fertile. What's more, this study shows that the male signals of genetic fitness are not just physical, but behavioral as well. At the same time, it is important to underscore that these men were preferred as short-term mates. Dominant men who derive pleasure from being aggressive deliver scant relationship benefits because they pose a threat to the family, show decreased parental investment, and have affairs. Consequently, and as expected, the women in this study preferred less aggressive men for long-term relationships.

What can we learn from this study and related efforts? While it may be bewildering why a woman would fall for the charms of a bellicose man, there's an underlying logic that seems to explain at least part of it: She wants to extract his good genes for posterity. The research also uncovers that the attraction to socially dominant men isn't just psychological—it's undergirded by biology. So while the appeal of an aggressive man may be confusing on an emotional level, an evolutionary lens can bring these tangled motivations into clearer focus.

Vinita Mehta, Ph.D. is a licensed clinical psychologist in Washington, DC, and an expert on relationships, managing anxiety and stress, and building health and resilience. Dr. Mehta is also the author of the forthcoming book Paleo Love: How Our Stone Age Bodies Complicate Modern Relationships. Connect with Dr. Mehta on the web at drvinitamehta.com and on Twitter and Pinterest, and find Dr. Mehta's other Psychology Today posts here.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/head-games/201305/the-allure-aggressive-men

so they like dangerous masculine men for short term flings only, as expected. The vast majority of men would rather sleep with Gal Gadot than Rebel Wilson as well.
 

franklin2323

Immortal
Messages
33,546
My thoughts and intentions regarding my daughter have, i think been made quite clear.
The idea that a women cannot act in a flirtatious or promiscuous manner without incuring great risk (you and i dont have this problem, curious thing that isnt it? Power imbalance is a cur... no f**king obvious thing) is precisely the problem i'd like society to attempt to address, rather than focus on what women should or should not do, id prefer to try to focus on how make men accountable for their behaviour.

My position is clear. I would like to focus on correcting the abhorent behaviour of potential perpetators. As is yours, who it would seem is interested in limited the attitudes and behaviours of potential victims.

Do you walk the street anytime? Make conversations with strangers?

It is the world we live in now
 

Knight76

Juniors
Messages
2,044
My position is clear. I would like to focus on correcting the abhorent behaviour of potential perpetators. As is yours, who it would seem is interested in limited the attitudes and behaviours of potential victims.

Lol, this is just laughable and is exactly why there cant be any meaningful discussion.

I raise my children to be respectful of all. Not just women, everybody.

Because I make a point that there are considerations and factors that Women may be able to alter or be aware of, you post my focus is solely on changing Women.

Its just not that black and white.
 

Last Week

Bench
Messages
3,646
So what happens if again the jury comes out unable to come to a conclusion...wouldn’t this be a waste on tax payers money.

It's only a waste depending on your point of view and what you value most.

The complainant in this case would think so, nor would anyone interested in justice.
 

Last Week

Bench
Messages
3,646
I have 2 sons and a daughter.

So your daughter, are you raising your daughter that she can act however she wishes without any fear of consequence? Are you raising her with the lesson that she can act as promiscuous as she pleases, be as flirtatious as she likes at clubs, bars wherever and that will lead to a totally risk free fun time?

And if she is too young at this time, will you?

T-Boon's comment is spot on, there needs to be a discussion about women placing themselves in vulnerable situations. I don't go to the local supermarket at 10pm because I know it isn't a great place for safety at that time. Should I be able to go there safely and hit up K-Mart for my cheap imported products? Sure, but that don't make it so.

There is victim blaming, like if she didn't dress like that she wouldn't have been raped. And then there is the discussion around being safe, making sensible decisions that don't put you at risk.

There are consequences for those things? And if so, what are some reasonable/acceptable consequences for a person who acts in such a way?
 
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