Southern Orcas (NZ2)

[flippikat]

Seems kiwi fans are not that interested in watching Australian clubs in union, would it be different in league?

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-...TH_R-xzuTFbjSsbTtTC3otkwcKOcpx3R2_5RfVJZO-rOY

As the story says, the gap between NZ & Australian RU teams is the real turn-off for fans with any combined Super Rugby competition. The best young rugby talent in Australia goes to RL most of the time.

Interesting that the article suggests a solution for NZ with the 5 current NZ teams, plus a 6th NZ team (Tauranga?), Moana Pacifika, and Fiji added to make 8 teams. That would leave Australia with an awkward 5-team competition.. so they may add a Japanese team to level the numbers.

Of course, the simplest solution would be to allow NZ players to play in Aussie teams & still qualify for the All Blacks (maybe a quota of X players per squad, tops) - improves NZ's depth, gives Aus a talent boost, allows players to earn a bit 'across the ditch'... but NZ Rugby would never swallow that.

Anyway, back to NRL.. I think the problem with NZ2 in many AUSTRALIAN eyes is that they see the Warriors failing to deliver on their potential most seasons & assume the same will happen with a 2nd team. It's not necessarily so, and not having a monopoly on NZ *may* spur the Warriors to lift their game on and off the field.. but a lot depends on the initial set-up.

 

[cumbrian Mackem]

Seems kiwi fans are not that interested in watching Australian clubs in union, would it be different in league?

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-...TH_R-xzuTFbjSsbTtTC3otkwcKOcpx3R2_5RfVJZO-rOY

With league being stronger than union in Australia I would think that unless NZ2 was competitive against the Aussie NRL clubs the crowds would be very similar.

 

[cumbrian Mackem]

As the story says, the gap between NZ & Australian RU teams is the real turn-off for fans with any combined Super Rugby competition. The best young rugby talent in Australia goes to RL most of the time.

Interesting that the article suggests a solution for NZ with the 5 current NZ teams, plus a 6th NZ team (Tauranga?), Moana Pacifika, and Fiji added to make 8 teams. That would leave Australia with an awkward 5-team competition.. so they may add a Japanese team to level the numbers.

Of course, the simplest solution would be to allow NZ players to play in Aussie teams & still qualify for the All Blacks (maybe a quota of X players per squad, tops) - improves NZ's depth, gives Aus a talent boost, allows players to earn a bit 'across the ditch'... but NZ Rugby would never swallow that.

Anyway, back to NRL.. I think the problem with NZ2 in many AUSTRALIAN eyes is that they see the Warriors failing to deliver on their potential most seasons & assume the same will happen with a 2nd team. It's not necessarily so, and not having a monopoly on NZ *may* spur the Warriors to lift their game on and off the field.. but a lot depends on the initial set-up.

NZ2 could be the kick up the backside that the warriors need. A genuine threat from NZ instead of from the Australian sides to like you say get the warriors more focused especially off the pitch in terms of recruitment and retention of junior players.

 

[Dark Corner]

Seems kiwi fans are not that interested in watching Australian clubs in union, would it be different in league?

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-...TH_R-xzuTFbjSsbTtTC3otkwcKOcpx3R2_5RfVJZO-rOY

In a perfect world think the Super NZ sides should just enter the NRL as club/Super Rugby in NZ seems the buzz has gone.

 

[cumbrian Mackem]

In a perfect world think the Super NZ sides should just enter the NRL as club/Super Rugby in NZ seems the buzz has gone.

All joking aside it would be interesting to see the reaction of both union and league fans to say the Canterbury crusaders entering a side in the NRL alongside their side in the super rugby Aotearoa competition.

 

[Dark Corner]

All joking aside it would be interesting to see the reaction of both union and league fans to say the Canterbury crusaders entering a side in the NRL alongside their side in the super rugby Aotearoa competition.

I honestly think if it wasn't for the All Blacks then New Zealand be Rugby League and like the AFL if NRL could waste a load of dosh on developing Rugby League in the long term it would work out well but I think the whole Pro/semi Pro set up in New Zealand Rugby underneath the International team is just wasted and not popular.

 

[cumbrian Mackem]

I honestly think if it wasn't for the All Blacks then New Zealand be Rugby League and like the AFL if NRL could waste a load of dosh on developing Rugby League in the long term it would work out well but I think the whole Pro/semi Pro set up in New Zealand Rugby underneath the International team is just wasted and not popular.

For me it’s the perfect storm regrading whats happened to the super rugby competition shooting themselves in the foot and they’ll never be a better opportunity for RL to take advantage in New Zealand.

I can’t honestly believe that super rugby jettisoned the South African franchises and with rugby union being on its arse in Australia this has boxed the NZ franchises into an ever decreasing corner due to New Zealand’s small population and limited franchise options.

Union fans in NZ will eventually tire and get sick of playing the same 4 teams over and over again and sticking 40-50 points on the Australian sides. I can eventually see rugby union in NZ becoming a bit like cricket in England and overwhelmingly being centred around the All Blacks with them either hosting teams and test matches in NZ or constantly being on tour to places like Europe, North America and Japan etc.

 

[Foreign Legion]

 

[flippikat]

For me it’s the perfect storm regrading whats happened to the super rugby competition shooting themselves in the foot and they’ll never be a better opportunity for RL to take advantage in New Zealand.

I can’t honestly believe that super rugby jettisoned the South African franchises and with rugby union being on its arse in Australia this has boxed the NZ franchises into an ever decreasing corner due to New Zealand’s small population and limited franchise options.

Union fans in NZ will eventually tire and get sick of playing the same 4 teams over and over again and sticking 40-50 points on the Australian sides. I can eventually see rugby union in NZ becoming a bit like cricket in England and overwhelmingly being centred around the All Blacks with them either hosting teams and test matches in NZ or constantly being on tour to places like Europe, North America and Japan etc.

The wildcards for NZ rugby union are Asia (well, Japan/China), the Pacific, and America.
If Australian RU is unwilling or incapable of competing with NZ, then some or all of these markets need to be activated to give NZ teams decent external competition.

I can see rugby union in the long term might be re-aligning to be Western Hemisphere/Eastern Hemisphere, instead of North/South. Europe/South Africa in the west, NZ, Aus, Pacifica, Asia in the east. America (the continent and the country) could go either way... and I'd venture that getting America "in the fold" with NZ rugby is the smartest move that NZR could make right now. They're gonna need them.

 

[cumbrian Mackem]

The wildcards for NZ rugby union are Asia (well, Japan/China), the Pacific, and America.
If Australian RU is unwilling or incapable of competing with NZ, then some or all of these markets need to be activated to give NZ teams decent external competition.

I can see rugby union in the long term might be re-aligning to be Western Hemisphere/Eastern Hemisphere, instead of North/South. Europe/South Africa in the west, NZ, Aus, Pacifica, Asia in the east. America (the continent and the country) could go either way... and I'd venture that getting America "in the fold" with NZ rugby is the smartest move that NZR could make right now. They're gonna need them.

Are you talking about domestic teams when you mention japan&china?

 

[flippikat]

Are you talking about domestic teams when you mention japan&china?

Could be either domestic or test... to be honest, I think if there was *one* team from Japan (and later from China) in regular competition with NZ Super Rugby teams - then that could filter through to a stronger test team - just look at how Argentina grew from having the focal point of the Jaguares in Super Rugby.

There's an alternative, though. the USA has done well to get "Major League Rugby" off the ground, and that could bring the standard of the game there up to a level where they could plug-in to NZ rugby - regular tests and/or MLR teams (or composite teams) playing against NZ Super Rugby sides.

 

[cumbrian Mackem]

Could be either domestic or test... to be honest, I think if there was *one* team from Japan (and later from China) in regular competition with NZ Super Rugby teams - then that could filter through to a stronger test team - just look at how Argentina grew from having the focal point of the Jaguares in Super Rugby.

There's an alternative, though. the USA has done well to get "Major League Rugby" off the ground, and that could bring the standard of the game there up to a level where they could plug-in to NZ rugby - regular tests and/or MLR teams (or composite teams) playing against NZ Super Rugby sides.

I honestly don’t know why the Jaguares and sunwolves weren’t included in either the NZ or Australian super rugby competitions. Especially the jaguares?

I think with the American private equity firm buying a big chunk up of the NZRU you’ll see more interaction with North American teams. Both MLR and the USA National side.

 

[flippikat]

I honestly don’t know why the Jaguares and sunwolves weren’t included in either the NZ or Australian super rugby competitions. Especially the jaguares?

I think with the American private equity firm buying a big chunk up of the NZRU you’ll see more interaction with North American teams. Both MLR and the USA National side.

Yep, I think in the long run NZR may regret ditching the Jags & Wolves.. but America could be the new "big deal" that saves NZR - off-field AND maybe even onfield if their game improves.

But bringing the topic back to NRL, groundwork should be done towards a 2nd NZ team (probably after Brisbane 2 & Perth) while NZR is in a state of flux.

 

[Dark Corner]

But isn't that why Super 18 or 15 was dying because of the amount of travel involved and aussie and kiwi fans were not bothered about a Bulls v Jaguares game for example.

 

[flippikat]

But isn't that why Super 18 or 15 was dying because of the amount of travel involved and aussie and kiwi fans were not bothered about a Bulls v Jaguares game for example.

The big factor in the death of Super Rugby was that some of the teams were quite frankly pathetic. There's nothing wrong with cross-border competitions if each country brings a quality team or two.. just look at how bug the Crusaders/Brumbies rivalry was at it's height- but if a country has it's share of teams, and all of them are average at best (hello Rugby Australia), it all turns sour.

South Africa was teetering towards that kinda decline too.

The Jaguares were just starting to live up to their potential when Covid hit, and I suspect the Sunwolves were on an upwards trend too, but SA & Aus were in real decline.. and that really hurt the comp.

 

[The Great Dane]

The big factor in the death of Super Rugby was that some of the teams were quite frankly pathetic. There's nothing wrong with cross-border competitions if each country brings a quality team or two.. just look at how bug the Crusaders/Brumbies rivalry was at it's height- but if a country has it's share of teams, and all of them are average at best (hello Rugby Australia), it all turns sour.

South Africa was teetering towards that kinda decline too.

The Jaguares were just starting to live up to their potential when Covid hit, and I suspect the Sunwolves were on an upwards trend too, but SA & Aus were in real decline.. and that really hurt the comp.

Well that and SA saw the money on offer in Europe and wanted to go that route rather than continue with Super Rugby.

It's pretty funny actually because they probably did more to screw Super Rugby than anybody else, and were the first to abandon it as soon as they thought they had a better option.

 

[The Great Dane]

If things keep going the way they have been over the last 15-20 years, I don't think we'll have to worry too much about RU on either side of the Tasman.

Neither the ARU or NZRU have been able to compete with the average money on offer in the NRL (or AFL for that matter), and the NRL has been increasingly chewing up the best young Rugby (plural) talent on both sides of the Tasman.

For obvious reasons the impact has been slower in NZ and the Pi's than in Australia, but once most of the next Richie Mccaw's and Jonah Lomu's are following the money in the NRL over playing RU the NZRU will have a quick decline in quality just like the ARU did.

Of course that is if the NRL continues it's current growth trajectory, which remains to be seen considering the recent attempts at self sabotage that the NRL has been inflicting on it's self. Never underestimate RL's ability to shoot it's self in the foot.

 

[The Great Dane]

This is like proposing an NRL team that represents everything west of Canberra...

If it was carefully executed it could it work in NZ's case, the Auckland vs everybody else rivalry is strong, but the reality is that it's more likely than not that everything outside of the home city would be treated with token representation and would quickly lose interest. Particularly in larger cities like Christchurch and Wellington, i.e. where it really matters, you'd probably quickly see demand for their own representation over 'sharing' a team with the other cities/regions once the novelty wore off.

The team would probably also struggle to compete with the local Super Rugby clubs in most regions unless it had a fulltime presence in the city, which wouldn't be good on their commercial side either.

 

[cumbrian Mackem]

Just out of interest whats the strongest rivalry in New Zealand?

auckland v Christchurch ?

auckland v Wellington?

Auckland v Dunedin?

 

[Dark Corner]

Judging by crowds this year it's-

Auckland v Christchurch 20000 Eden Park

Christchurch v Auckland 174000 Christchurch

Auckland v Wellington 17000 Eden Park

Wellington v Auckland 13305 Cake Tin

Auckland v Dunedin 15000 Eden Park

Dunedin v Auckland 13379 Dunedin