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18 teams vying for Super League licenses

Messages
10,970
deluded pom? said:
Why give Salford a spot based on their proximity to Manchester? Although a big city minutes from the RL heartlands there is very very little RL presence of RL in the city itself and unless a concerted development plan is put in place there's unlikely to be any in the near future.

alredy so many teams from yorkshire mean they need more from the west side of the pennines to balance it.

it the new ground gets done they are a certainty.

they operated in SL on a budget of around 1.2 million on players whilst the top teams spent 1.8 million pounds.

with the bbc sports department moving to salford / manchester a strong RL club is a must in the area to get more print media
 
Messages
10,970
14 teams in SL.

certainties - Leeds, Bradford, St Helens, Wigan, Hull FC, Warrington, Harliquins, Les Catalans, Huddersfield. 9 spots guaranteed.

5 remaining from the following contenders : wakefield, castleford, salford, hull kr, toulose, celtic crusaders and leigh

salford will get in provided they can get construction started on their ground, which is expected in feb. there have been issues raised about the finances but the club says it will get done.

i think Hull KR will get a spot as well based on their good performances in sL so far, their good squad for next year, that they have already sold 5000 season tickets and they help Hull FC sell out their ground at the derby games.

assuming those 2 get in it leaves 3 spots left which i think celtic crusaders will likely get a spot too.

then its down to toulose, cas and wakey i think. cas ground proposal is much further advanced than wakefield's
 

deluded pom?

Coach
Messages
10,897
dallymessenger said:
apparently salford is a big city in its own right of around 800,000 people.

lots of man utd fans actually come from salford.

That would make Salford the third biggest city in the UK which it most certainly is not. There are several other teams that are not a million miles from Manchester but Salford always seem to get the nod. Wakefield is also a city in it's own right.
 

nadera78

Juniors
Messages
2,233
I don't think there is much of an argument tbh. The current 12 teams will all get in, as will Celtic Crusaders and Salford.

I don't think Richard Lewis is convinced by Toulouse just yet and will probably plump for a new Welsh club over a second French one.

Salford are a good club, have never had any financial problems, and have a beautiful stadium on the way.

None of the other NL1 teams are strong enough to get in; Leigh were a disaster in every sense 2 years back, Widnes have just come out of administration, which will certainly be held against them, Featherstone are probably capable of surviving in ESL but are just too small to challenge. I think the RFL are looking not for 14 clubs who can survive, but can actually prosper and challenge for honours.
 

deluded pom?

Coach
Messages
10,897
That depends what you mean by prosper nad. Are the 'Quins prospering? I have no doubts at all that the game needs a presence in the capital but are they prospering? Crowds are not the only criteria to measure progress by but a good yardstick is the number/lack of numbers of locally produced players the "London team" has produced which by any stretch isn't very good.
 

The Tank

Bench
Messages
4,562
As long as Catalans, Quins, and Toulouse make it I'm happy. And hopefully the Crusaders also.
 

Mr. Fahrenheit

Referee
Messages
22,132
I would love for Toulouse and Celtic to make it, but Salford are a viable alternative. However it works out, i hope for international RL that Toulouse gets a franchise.
 
Messages
10,970
deluded pom? said:
That would make Salford the third biggest city in the UK which it most certainly is not. There are several other teams that are not a million miles from Manchester but Salford always seem to get the nod. Wakefield is also a city in it's own right.

wigan is hardly close to manchester, its a fair drive.

salford are far closer to the city of manchester.

i would like to see the day where oldham and salford are both in SL
 

ucantseeme

Juniors
Messages
1,729
I think it is too soon for a 2nd French team. If Catalan gets to a point in years to come where their side can field 17 French players on a regular basis AND be competitive then it is time to look at Toulouse. Having a 2nd team in France made up of Aussies/Kiwis joining the comp wont help.

Paris St Germain was a part of ESL years ago but failed because Paris wasnt a RL heartland anymore but also because most of the team were foreigners.

I don't think there is much of an argument tbh. The current 12 teams will all get in, as will Celtic Crusaders and Salford.

I don't think Richard Lewis is convinced by Toulouse just yet and will probably plump for a new Welsh club over a second French one.

Sounds about right.
 

winnyason

Juniors
Messages
1,576
think it is too soon for a 2nd French team. If Catalan gets to a point in years to come where their side can field 17 French players on a regular basis AND be competitive then it is time to look at Toulouse. Having a 2nd team in France made up of Aussies/Kiwis joining the comp wont help.

Paris St Germain was a part of ESL years ago but failed because Paris wasnt a RL heartland anymore but also because most of the team were foreigners.

What just like st helens or wigan has 17 english wake up idiot.
The comp is based around nz and aussies in sides, it is a bad bad idea if celtic get a side look at the welsh pefromance in wc qualifers enough to say they are not ready.
Compared to france's who should have beat kiwis if not for bad ref decision, & where missing 6 catlans players so the guys who performed for france where elite players.
The feed back from the test in paris suggests league is getting back in people minds in france particular rugby mind in a positive way & toulouse is france gold coast the biggest growing city in france.
 

deluded pom?

Coach
Messages
10,897
dallymessenger said:
wigan is hardly close to manchester, its a fair drive.

salford are far closer to the city of manchester.

i would like to see the day where oldham and salford are both in SL

Where in my post does it say Wigan? :?
 

nadera78

Juniors
Messages
2,233
deluded pom? said:
That depends what you mean by prosper nad. Are the 'Quins prospering? I have no doubts at all that the game needs a presence in the capital but are they prospering? Crowds are not the only criteria to measure progress by but a good yardstick is the number/lack of numbers of locally produced players the "London team" has produced which by any stretch isn't very good.

Very true. There are more londoners coming through now though; Louis McCarthy-Scarsbrook is just a good season (and a couple of injuries to other players) away from international selection, hits hard, runs hard, off loads well, just needs more experience. Lamont Bryan, one to watch too. And there are a suprising number of londoners floating around NL clubs. Over the next couple of years there will be some real finds coming through, I'm certain of it.

As for the future of Quins RL, well I have a little theory of my own here. At some point the club will merge with South London Storm. There you go, how's that for a prediction? My reasoning? Well, Storm are a progressive amateur club, they have five junior community clubs that feed into them (Addington, Croydon, Thornton Heath, Brixton, Wandsworth) each with local schools feeding into them in turn. There is another local club being set up (Mitcham) which will have senior and junior teams. There is already schools development work being done in two other boroughs (Sutton and Merton) and they will eventually set up community clubs in both of those too.

Throw in other amateur clubs in south london (Greenwich Admirals, Kent Rravens, Kingston Warriors) and two or three years from now you will have eleven amateur clubs in the area. Thats the basis for a competitive development structure, with kids coming through to play in the open age, and the best going through to the Storm. The kids no playing U-16's will be adults and will have been immersed in RL in their formative years.

Add into the fact that the new Quins CEO, Paul Brown, has a long association with Storm and I think I'm onto something. Then again I could be miles away!
 

deluded pom?

Coach
Messages
10,897
Interesting theory nad that highlights how far South London Storm have come in a short time but how much of the groundwork was done before their advent. If a lot then well done the "London" pro team, if virtually none then that's a sad indictment on the "London" pro team's development work.
 
Messages
10,970
nadera78 said:
Very true. There are more londoners coming through now though; Louis McCarthy-Scarsbrook is just a good season (and a couple of injuries to other players) away from international selection, hits hard, runs hard, off loads well, just needs more experience. Lamont Bryan, one to watch too. And there are a suprising number of londoners floating around NL clubs. Over the next couple of years there will be some real finds coming through, I'm certain of it.

As for the future of Quins RL, well I have a little theory of my own here. At some point the club will merge with South London Storm. There you go, how's that for a prediction? My reasoning? Well, Storm are a progressive amateur club, they have five junior community clubs that feed into them (Addington, Croydon, Thornton Heath, Brixton, Wandsworth) each with local schools feeding into them in turn. There is another local club being set up (Mitcham) which will have senior and junior teams. There is already schools development work being done in two other boroughs (Sutton and Merton) and they will eventually set up community clubs in both of those too.

Throw in other amateur clubs in south london (Greenwich Admirals, Kent Rravens, Kingston Warriors) and two or three years from now you will have eleven amateur clubs in the area. Thats the basis for a competitive development structure, with kids coming through to play in the open age, and the best going through to the Storm. The kids no playing U-16's will be adults and will have been immersed in RL in their formative years.

Add into the fact that the new Quins CEO, Paul Brown, has a long association with Storm and I think I'm onto something. Then again I could be miles away!

where would they play? the new river is hardly a SL ground?
 

deluded pom?

Coach
Messages
10,897
South London Storm don't even play at the New River, that's the home of the London Skolars :roll: I would assume they'd play at the Stoop and the 'Quins would "absorb" the Storm's junior setup.
 

Kurt Angle

First Grade
Messages
9,658
Nadera, or anyone close to London/South London RL.

If there are now London raised juniors in SL and the national leagues, it is obvious there is a critical mass interested in the game.

The issue is trying to extrapolate that support at a SL level. I would love to see a strong London RL setup for the sole reason to be a counter weight to the Northern muppetry that plagues English RL.

However, it seems like the Quins aren't getting a community attachment, nor has any 'big branded' form of the club.

Is it a case of that currently no where in london is there widescale community attachment? or is it that the new breed of RL tragics in say the Storm and Skolars areas won't attach themselves to Quins ?

If it's the latter, can this be changed with moving the SL club to either North (Skolars) or South (Storm)?
 

nadera78

Juniors
Messages
2,233
Kurt Angle said:
Nadera, or anyone close to London/South London RL.

If there are now London raised juniors in SL and the national leagues, it is obvious there is a critical mass interested in the game.

The issue is trying to extrapolate that support at a SL level. I would love to see a strong London RL setup for the sole reason to be a counter weight to the Northern muppetry that plagues English RL.

However, it seems like the Quins aren't getting a community attachment, nor has any 'big branded' form of the club.

Is it a case of that currently no where in london is there widescale community attachment? or is it that the new breed of RL tragics in say the Storm and Skolars areas won't attach themselves to Quins ?

If it's the latter, can this be changed with moving the SL club to either North (Skolars) or South (Storm)?

Blimey, this could be a long answer! Because the London/Quins club has never had a settled home and has continually shifted from one part of town to another it has never really been able to lay down roots and build a community of fans in one particular location. There has never been a feeling that "this is my club, a club for life." Also a hand-to-mouth existence makes it difficult to spend the required amount of time and money on building that community link through schools development, etc. It takes time and effort for people to gain a sense of ownership of something, but the club has never really had the chance to do that.

One of the consequences is that there are fans all around London, and pockets of development work that have been built on or sustained by local community clubs. But there has never really been a ground zero if you like, an area that was the centre of development work. I personally don't watch Harlequins, it's too heavily rah-rah associated for me. I go and watch the Skolars sometimes but it's a two hour journey from my house the the ground, which incidentally is one of the problems for RL in London, it's too big and unweildy for one RL club to lay calim to, there is no commonality between people from different parts of town. For example, I'm a west Londoner, and until I met my girlfriend four years ago had only been south of the river a couple of times. Now, after four years, I've been there a million times but I still make jokes about needing my passport and jabs.


In north London, the London Skolars are doing it all from the bottom upwards. They are working hard to get a decent team on the field and doing the hard work in schools, colleges, etc. It's a long term game plan, but they have guys running the club that have a background in the City and they can see the value of doing it this way. I tend to think they will be successful, but it will take a long time.


The Storm are similar in a way, although they have come from a different angle. A few years back they moved from playing in the RL Conference (a comp for non-heartland teams) into the new NL3. But after one year they pulled out, which caused a few problems at the club and arguments. Some wanted to build and go for the big time, others (led by Paul Brown, the new Quins CEO) reckoned it was better to spend that money on the kids and developing the roots. This has proved to be a blessing, because they now have schools work feeding into five local clubs, who in turn feed into the Storm. And this is set to expand in the coming years.

Now, the Storm are by no means ready to enter a team in ESL at the moment, but I think the game is at a tipping point. We are on the verge of seeing kids who have grown up with RL becoming adults, and hopefully continuing to play RL. This is how sustainable clubs are built. The game finally seems to be building a collection of clubs and development programmes in one locale; south London. Now, Quins have a hard core of 3,500 who follow them all over town, if, in say, five years time they were to merge with the Storm they would bring that group of fans with them, add to that the fact that Souths are building a real RL community, then you perhaps have the basis of a sustainable professional club.

It's hypothetical, but I can certainly see it as a possibility.
 
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