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18th club, whose next?

Messages
14,822
Ipswich Jets brand stronger tho. I've never been to Ipswich but we've all heard of them & know about Alfie & Walters..

Ipswich Jets ain't worth shit to the average person in SEQ. The club didn't exist before 1982.

Easts Tigers have been around since 1917 and have a footprint spanning from Bulimba in east-north-east Brisbane to Yarrabilba in southeast Logan.

I've been to Queensland Cup games at Kougari Oval involving the Jets and Tigers. The Tigers brought far more supporters with them. Games at Langlands Park are better attended than games at North Ipswich Reserve. If you go to the Jets' games at North Ipswich Reserve you'll hear the same bloke yell "get them back the ten" and "keep them square at the ruck" a million times each game.

I've been to Jets games at North Ipswich Reserve. No one outside of Ipswich gives a f**k about them and the locals do not embrace outsiders.
 

macca_saint

Juniors
Messages
215
RL at its core is all about state of origin, nsw vs qld.

The NRL nucleus therefore "should" be 6 NSW clubs and 6 QLD clubs. With a satellite of "one town" clubs from WA, SA, ViC, ACT, and when it has 1x NZ and 1x PNG, RL is now cementing a long-term future and growth in Oceania/Pacific, that AFL can't compete with, can't outgrow.

That's an 18 team national/trans-national comp.

I would cap the NRL at 18 by rationalizing some Sydney clubs. Tho it's controversial.

There'd have to be a second tier comp, nationwide, full of regional clubs, demoted clubs, future expansion clubs. Rather than a strict NRL Reserves containing the same clubs.

It's inevitable we will have a WA, SA, PNG team, and another Brisbane (Western corridor) team, and a Sunshine Coast team and a Central QLD team. The population growth of Perth and Brisbane/northern corridor is a guarantee that there will be NRL clubs there eventually.

How or what order it occurs in is anyone's guess.

I would say tho ... we already have a NZ team so there's no point adding another there before adding a Perth team. Perth has to be ahead of NZ. Brisbane-West and Sunshine Coast are more necessary before a second NZ team too.

Maybe a chronological sequence of Perth 18, Sunshine Coast 19, Brisbane West 20, PNG/Cairns 21, SA 22.

But again, rationalization has to occur to keep the total to 18-20 max.

Use the state leagues to keep old but outgrown clubs still around for posterity, like Wynnum-Manly, Valleys Diehards, Newtown Jets, North Sydney Bears, Wests Magpies, Balmain Tigers, Illawarra Steelers, etc.

The tricky part is rationalizing the NSW NRL clubs down to max 6...Dragons in Wollongong, Knights in Newcastle, that leaves 4 spots. Tigers-Campbelltown, Penrith-Parramatta merger, a centralized East (roosters-rabbits merger) and single North Shore franchise (bears-eagles) or Central Coast instead of North Shore.

I've said it before....to repeat....what should've happened when creating a NRL was to have all new "Broncos-like" franchises set up in those NSW regions, and demoting the established famous clubs to NSWRL to maintain their posterity rather than merging, relocating or ending them altogether. But those new clubs would be set up as a joint venture between two existing teams. Eg, Roosters and Rabbitohs would demote to existing in the NSWRL but both entities would be joint partners in a, say, "Sydney Outlaws" NRL franchise, joint colors of red, blue, green and white. Panthers and Eels would demote to NSWRL, but be joint partners in a, say, "West Sydney Devils" franchise, joint colors of black, blue, yellow. Just like how Wests Tigers already exists as a joint venture between Tigers and Magpies, while keeping both clubs in the NSWRL, juniors. That "should've" been the plan, tho very contentious and causing angat, fact is, 30 years later people have moved on and accepted that joint entity and no tears over Balmain and Wests given they still exist like the Jets abd Bears do.

A way to preserve history whilst also starting a new era, but keeping those old teams financially invested still via the joint ventures.

That could still be doable i guess. St George Dragons and Illawarra Steelers are another example of that. Northern Eagles could've been another. And all that is left is Roosters-Rabbits, Panthers-Eels, and Sharks-Bulldogs.

But, I know that's highly contentious. Still, imo, it's better than relocating or killing off clubs.

Anyway.....given where we already are now, and no way forward with expansion except by adding clubs to an already over-filled Sydney-centric comp, it'll eventually mean rationalization will occur anyway to achieve a truly national/trans-national comp of 20 max
I would argue that RL at its core is about tribalism, rather than strictly NSW vs. QLD.

The issue with rationalisation is that you ruin a lot of the tribalism which has built up over decades and decades. For example, you suggest a Roosters-South’s merger which is pure madness to me. Their rivalry is the oldest in the league and their fans would NEVER support a merged entity (Book of feuds etc.) I imagine the story would be the same for Penrith and Parramatta fans.

I mentioned it in another post but you would destroy a lot of the “romance” in our game by merging some of our oldest clubs and rivals.
 

Pippen94

First Grade
Messages
7,243
Ipswich Jets ain't worth shit to the average person in SEQ. The club didn't exist before 1982.

Easts Tigers have been around since 1917 and have a footprint spanning from Bulimba in east-north-east Brisbane to Yarrabilba in southeast Logan.

I've been to Queensland Cup games at Kougari Oval involving the Jets and Tigers. The Tigers brought far more supporters with them. Games at Langlands Park are better attended than games at North Ipswich Reserve. If you go to the Jets' games at North Ipswich Reserve you'll hear the same bloke yell "get them back the ten" and "keep them square at the ruck" a million times each game.

I've been to Jets games at North Ipswich Reserve. No one outside of Ipswich gives a f**k about them and the locals do not embrace outsiders.

I'm from Sydney & am well aware. When they played in Aussie championship game the club had reputation & neutral fans had soft spot for them as they represent heartland.

Firehawks aren't tigers & easts can't use tigers in NRL anyway.
 

xe_kilroy

Juniors
Messages
319
I would argue that RL at its core is about tribalism, rather than strictly NSW vs. QLD.

The issue with rationalisation is that you ruin a lot of the tribalism which has built up over decades and decades. For example, you suggest a Roosters-South’s merger which is pure madness to me. Their rivalry is the oldest in the league and their fans would NEVER support a merged entity (Book of feuds etc.) I imagine the story would be the same for Penrith and Parramatta fans.

I mentioned it in another post but you would destroy a lot of the “romance” in our game by merging some of our oldest clubs and rivals.
Well, I don't disagree with you at all. But "tribalism" and "expansion" are like diametrically opposite/conflicting philosophies.

Btw, i didn't suggest actual mergers like Magpies-Tigers into Wests Tigers, but more of a joint venture, creating a new entity together, and keeping both clubs in the NSWRL to continue their tribalism.

I guess that's semantics, joint venture vs merger.

It seems certain to me next expansion clubs would be the high-growth regions of Perth 18, Sunshine Coast 19, Brisbane West 20 (to give SEQ clubs a chance to consolidate before giving them another rival).

As critics have noted tho...NRL possibly can't handle 20 teams, the players and coaches needed, there'll be a lot of struggling clubs and in danger of thus ending up merged, relocated or bankrupt. So it's eventually going to happen anyway....a loss of 2 say Sydney clubs after adding Perth, SC and Brisbane West, to get the comp back down to 18.
 
Messages
14,822
I'm from Sydney & am well aware. When they played in Aussie championship game the club had reputation & neutral fans had soft spot for them as they represent heartland.

Firehawks aren't tigers & easts can't use tigers in NRL anyway.

So?

The opinions of RL fans from Sydney are irrelevant.

How much money they can generate from sponsorship, corporate hospitality, ticketing, membership and merchandise from is all that matters.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
69,865
Bulldogs and tigers are failing badly in commercial and fan appeal. If it wasn’t for pokies neither of them would be viable football clubs. Merge them into the West Sydney bulldogs playing out of a new stadium in Liverpool and let the south brisbane tigers enter the comp. Problem solved.
 

macca_saint

Juniors
Messages
215
Well, I don't disagree with you at all. But "tribalism" and "expansion" are like diametrically opposite/conflicting philosophies.

Btw, i didn't suggest actual mergers like Magpies-Tigers into Wests Tigers, but more of a joint venture, creating a new entity together, and keeping both clubs in the NSWRL to continue their tribalism.

I guess that's semantics, joint venture vs merger.

It seems certain to me next expansion clubs would be the high-growth regions of Perth 18, Sunshine Coast 19, Brisbane West 20 (to give SEQ clubs a chance to consolidate before giving them another rival).

As critics have noted tho...NRL possibly can't handle 20 teams, the players and coaches needed, there'll be a lot of struggling clubs and in danger of thus ending up merged, relocated or bankrupt. So it's eventually going to happen anyway....a loss of 2 say Sydney clubs after adding Perth, SC and Brisbane West, to get the comp back down to 18.
I take your point about merger vs. joint venture. But can you honestly see the Roosters and Souths working together as a JV? The Roosters didn’t even want Souths playing home games at Allianz, let alone then forming a single entity with them.

I know I’m focusing on only one of the potential JV’s you mentioned, but most Sydney clubs would have similar rationale for not wanting to do it. Especially if they are neighbouring rivals (i.e. Parra/Penrith).

I agree that if you were to start a comp from scratch right now, you would have markedly less Sydney sides, but the NRL has grown from the NSWRL and we can’t just kill that history in the name of rationalisation.
 

Pneuma

First Grade
Messages
5,475
I take your point about merger vs. joint venture. But can you honestly see the Roosters and Souths working together as a JV? The Roosters didn’t even want Souths playing home games at Allianz, let alone then forming a single entity with them.

I know I’m focusing on only one of the potential JV’s you mentioned, but most Sydney clubs would have similar rationale for not wanting to do it. Especially if they are neighbouring rivals (i.e. Parra/Penrith).

I agree that if you were to start a comp from scratch right now, you would have markedly less Sydney sides, but the NRL has grown from the NSWRL and we can’t just kill that history in the name of rationalisation.
That’s a tidy bunch of posts you two. Bloody good read.
 

xe_kilroy

Juniors
Messages
319
I take your point about merger vs. joint venture. But can you honestly see the Roosters and Souths working together as a JV? The Roosters didn’t even want Souths playing home games at Allianz, let alone then forming a single entity with them.

I know I’m focusing on only one of the potential JV’s you mentioned, but most Sydney clubs would have similar rationale for not wanting to do it. Especially if they are neighbouring rivals (i.e. Parra/Penrith).

I agree that if you were to start a comp from scratch right now, you would have markedly less Sydney sides, but the NRL has grown from the NSWRL and we can’t just kill that history in the name of rationalisation.
Yep, it's tricky where we are now and the road forward with expansion. But it's going to happen -- expansion thus rationalization. Adding Perth will create another super rich one-city club, big crowds and TV viewerships, memberships, corporate sponsorships, and that'll mean another fringe suburban Sydney club struggles to compete long term and eventually dies out or forced to merge/relocate.

Expansion is more important than tribalism long-term. Keep tribalism in the NSWRL imo, and forge ahead with a capped 18 team national/trans-national comp. The growth and security of RL will happen and even phase out AFL.
 

macca_saint

Juniors
Messages
215
Yep, it's tricky where we are now and the road forward with expansion. But it's going to happen -- expansion thus rationalization. Adding Perth will create another super rich one-city club, big crowds and TV viewerships, memberships, corporate sponsorships, and that'll mean another fringe suburban Sydney club struggles to compete long term and eventually dies out or forced to merge/relocate.

Expansion is more important than tribalism long-term. Keep tribalism in the NSWRL imo, and forge ahead with a capped 18 team national/trans-national comp. The growth and security of RL will happen and even phase out AFL.
The only way I can see it happening currently is if the NRL offer big $$$ for a struggling Sydney side to relocate. My feel is that the NRL clubs now are too big and have too many rivalries to ever form another JV like the Tigers or Dragons did.

Even relocation is a huge long shot when you consider that most Sydney sides have a large local Leagues club feeding them and a Centre of Excellence in their area, or one planned to be built (Dragons).
 

westerntiger

Juniors
Messages
1,964
Bringing in Firehawks would cause a major restructure of the Storm and force them to grow grassroots in Victoria. I was slightly alarmed when I read somewhere that actually a few of the Melbourne Rabble players in Super Rugby were actually from Melbourne whereas the Storm are mostly from Qld/NZ
 

macca_saint

Juniors
Messages
215
Bringing in Firehawks would cause a major restructure of the Storm and force them to grow grassroots in Victoria. I was slightly alarmed when I read somewhere that actually a few of the Melbourne Rabble players in Super Rugby were actually from Melbourne whereas the Storm are mostly from Qld/NZ
Toffball is bigger than League at a grassroots level in Melbourne because of kiwi expats
 

Pippen94

First Grade
Messages
7,243
So?

The opinions of RL fans from Sydney are irrelevant.

How much money they can generate from sponsorship, corporate hospitality, ticketing, membership and merchandise from is all that matters.

Kinda like you when you comment about St George becoming Chinese dragons one minute, then British nationalists the next.

Branding is important, except certain ppl here don't understand basic concepts.

The Tigers had no intention of being an equal partner with the Jets. They wanted to run everything.

Why do you think it didn't go anywhere?

I imagine both sides wanted to be dominant partner. Jets have brand & important growth area, Tigers have money. Dolphins have it all & that's why it got up.
 

Pippen94

First Grade
Messages
7,243
Bulldogs and tigers are failing badly in commercial and fan appeal. If it wasn’t for pokies neither of them would be viable football clubs. Merge them into the West Sydney bulldogs playing out of a new stadium in Liverpool and let the south brisbane tigers enter the comp. Problem solved.

Troll fail
 

Pippen94

First Grade
Messages
7,243
Bringing in Firehawks would cause a major restructure of the Storm and force them to grow grassroots in Victoria. I was slightly alarmed when I read somewhere that actually a few of the Melbourne Rabble players in Super Rugby were actually from Melbourne whereas the Storm are mostly from Qld/NZ

Rugby has always had somewhat of a presence in Melbourne 91 world cup prop Ewen Mackenzie was a local junior there
 

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