What's new
The Front Row Forums

Register a free account today to become a member of the world's largest Rugby League discussion forum! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

1st Test: New Zealand v Sri Lanka at Dunedin on Dec 10-14, 2015

JJ

Immortal
Messages
32,587
Good to disagree. Ignoring the batting freaks you're wrong on the keepers IMO, Marsh was a poor keeper to anyone but quicks for example.

Hope the selectors are looking at Smith, Raval
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
Messages
8,014
Good to disagree. Ignoring the batting freaks you're wrong on the keepers IMO, Marsh was a poor keeper to anyone but quicks for example.

Hope the selectors are looking at Smith, Raval

Rod Marsh was not dropped for Warren Lees, Peter Webb, Ervin McSweeney, Tony Blain, Bryan Young, Lee Germon Chris Nevin, Mathew Sinclair, Robbie Hart, Lou Vincent, Gareth Hopkins and Peter McGlashan. He also has more test stumpings than all of them and Smith, McCullum and Parore.

If Sinclair and Vincent were tried as keepers, I do not think you can ignore the 'batting freaks'. Batting is relevant is assessing the value of a wicket keeper. Sinclair and Hart are unfair inclusions on this list as they are between Parore's last game and McCullum's first, but shows how easy it was to get a black cap as against a baggy green.

McCullum is undoubtedly a fine limited overs wicket keeper. But he is nowhere near Gilly, let alone Sangakarra so as to be world class. Likewise in tests, he was a long way from making any world XI during his career.

The selectors are looking at Johnny come lately Ben Smith, but they do not appear to be watching Jeet Raval. I think he will continue to be over looked for a while yet. I think Smith, Nicholls, and M Bracewell play for the Black caps ahead of him.
 
Last edited:

TheParraboy

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
68,410
Kholi and Smith are extroverts who presumably desired the job.

I wouldn't be calling Steve Smith an extrovert, just because we see him more in the media due to captain commitments. He comes across as someone who shy's away from the spotlight if he could

On the captaincy, he was an outside chance at best about 18 months ago or so to get the gig. Was no certainty to even be in the side. The mountain of runs since then secured his place in the side, which was important. Captaining NSW helped. It became a logical choice he become captain. There really wasn't anyone else screaming out for the job
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
Messages
8,014
Steve Smith is a Julio. Many extroverts would shy away from the spotlight of media commitments if they could.

I will watch his relationship with David Warner with great interest in the next few years.

Despite all the Smith hype, I think his test average will slump from where it is now and Warner's continue to climb. Do they drive Mercedes'? I think Warner realizes if he had not been such an unsavoury ambassador of cricket in the past that he could have been captain now.

I will be keen on observing the Australian public's view of Smith's captaincy. Despite ch 9 doing their best for him and declaring after Hazelwood had taken 8 or 9 wickets for Australia that he was only playing because Smith wanted him not to be dropped, I am not sure he will be one of the publicly cherished captains just yet.
 
Last edited:

vvvrulz

Coach
Messages
13,625
Richardson world class? Test cricket only batsman in an era of Smith, Sehwag, Hayden and Langer? Gayle, Anwar, Trescothick and probably Jayasuriya leave him for dust if limited overs cricket included as well. Mark Richardson averaging 22 against Australia and 34 against South Africa? Richardson is much loved for what he achieved with the limited talent at his disposal. World class? Or a celebrated battler who successfully punched above his weight albeit dour and renown as boring as he ground out occupying the crease. 4 centuries is a stretch to be considered for a world class career as an opening batsman. His numbers are more the tier below world class openers.

John Wright world class? He does not even average over 40. He averages 37.8. That is not Haynes, Greenige, Gavaskar, Taylor, Boon, or Sidhu, Its more Mudassar Nazar without the bowling.

Watling is well on his way to being world class, but he wouldn't make the Pakistani team any time soon, would he? Disagree with Smith, Parore and McCullum being labelled 'world class', too. They are a mile away from Rod Marsh, Alan Knott, Bruce Taylor, Des Amiss (before their time, but the point remains valid), Adam Gilchrist, Andy Flower, Kumar Sangakarra, Jack Russel, Ian Healey, Alec Stewart discussions.

Andrew Jones would be the next closest player to have been worthy of being deemed world class of that era in my opinion.

Agree with some of this.

Richardson was an honest battler and a cult hero, but as you say miles overrated (including by himself) and did the smart thing of retiring before his numbers took a hit. In his last series the Australian's were all over him. He didn't have a very long career either, four years. His two biggest scores were cash-ins on a dead Indian pitch and against Bangladesh.

John Wright can't be judged on numbers alone, in those days anything near 40 was good. You have to look at the context of his career. He's not better than Gavaskar or Haynes ... but you aren't seriously comparing him to Navjot Sidhu?

Watling has some way to go.
Smith again more of a cult hero.
Parore was overrated.

McCullum is absolutely world class, not in the Sanga/Gilly/Flower level (all time greats of the game) but definitely the next one down.
 

African Monkey

First Grade
Messages
8,671
Raval is a bit of a flat track bully. Most of his runs have come on the very flat Eden Park Outer Oval/ the very flat Colin Maiden park.

I also don't buy the Richardson criticism. The guy had to bat on some very seamer friendly tracks and would come out on top most of the time. He should have scored 3-4 more test centuries but like Fleming, always got nervous in the 80s/90s. World Class I would say no but was very very good who started his career very late unfortunately.
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
Messages
8,014
John Wright can't be judged on numbers alone, in those days anything near 40 was good. You have to look at the context of his career. He's not better than Gavaskar or Haynes ... but you aren't seriously comparing him to Navjot Sidhu?

...

McCullum is absolutely world class, not in the Sanga/Gilly/Flower level (all time greats of the game) but definitely the next one down.

John Wright has more chance catching Sidhu than he does Gooch. John Wright averaged 41.86 at home and 33 away. 10 tonnes at home and only 2 away. He compares to Sidhu, bar Sidhu getting a tonne in the West Indies in 1989 against Ambrose, Walsh, Marshall and Bishop.

I am not sure that I agree that anything 'near' 40 was 'good'. I thought 40 was the bench mark for good for a batsman in that period. 45 was excellent and 50 was the realm of Miandad, Border, Richards, Chappel and Gavaskar. The magnificent. Wright's career also coincides with 9 or so years of Steve Waugh, and 4 to 5 years of Tendulkar and Lara. U understand that the batting averages of today are 5 runs ahead of what they were in the 1980's. But I am not comparing Wright to the Sanga and Kallis era. I am comparing him to his contemporaries from the late 70's to the early 90's. And he comes up short of world class.

As a Kiwi cricket fan who grew up watching John Wright, I celebrate his services to NZC as keenly as anyone. But he was not 'world class'. He should have spent the first half of his career, well for far more matches than he did, as second fiddle to Turner in the New Zealand team alone. I acknowledge that Wright finished his career strongly and his numbers are a conitnual work in progress of improvement. Which is an excellent indicator of a player who continued to improve and learn his trade. But he took a long time to get there. That means he was never near Gooch, Gavaskar, Haynes, Greenidge, Boycott, Boon, and perhaps Taylor - and many careers of that overlapped his era, even if you think he has claim to being comparable to Sidhu.

I am not sure how McCullum can be 'world class' when there are three wicket keepers in his era that you say are clearly miles ahead of him. And you havn't even mentioned Dhoni. Perhaps that then is 4 ahead of him. What about Prior? Is it 5 ahead of him? Perhaps world class needs a clearer definition. But I think he is straggling well behind the likes of Gilly, Sanga, Flower, Dhoni and Prior.

Watling, well if he continues the last couple of years - bar Australia tour- he is in the mix with more than a few of the aforementioned names as a keeper bat.
 
Last edited:

ANTiLAG

First Grade
Messages
8,014
I also don't buy the Richardson criticism. The guy had to bat on some very seamer friendly tracks and would come out on top most of the time. He should have scored 3-4 more test centuries but like Fleming, always got nervous in the 80s/90s. World Class I would say no but was very very good who started his career very late unfortunately.

Its not criticism as such. Its just removing parochial bias that the good player from my team is "world class". Its simply saying he was not world class in an era of Smith, Sehwag, Hayden and Langer.

And I'm not sure he is ahead of Vaughan, Gibbs, Gayle, Anwar, Trescothick (and probably Jayasuriya) when limited overs cricket value is considered as well. This is very good company to be in. But 'world class"? Is Richardson even "clearly" ahead of this group of players? No. He is not. But he is "clearly" beneath Smith, Sehwag, Hayden and Langer. Is World Class anyone who spent a 4 year plus period as a good team regular. I think world class is higher standard than that.
 
Last edited:

JJ

Immortal
Messages
32,587
Rod Marsh was not dropped for Warren Lees, Peter Webb, Ervin McSweeney, Tony Blain, Bryan Young, Lee Germon Chris Nevin, Mathew Sinclair, Robbie Hart, Lou Vincent, Gareth Hopkins and Peter McGlashan. He also has more test stumpings than all of them and Smith, McCullum and Parore.

If Sinclair and Vincent were tried as keepers, I do not think you can ignore the 'batting freaks'. Batting is relevant is assessing the value of a wicket keeper. Sinclair and Hart are unfair inclusions on this list as they are between Parore's last game and McCullum's first, but shows how easy it was to get a black cap as against a baggy green.



m.
Most of that is simply bullshit tbh

Lees got a few tests and was a good player, the rest is crap or different times

On the lauded baggy green you're conveniently omitting such legends as Wayne Phillips, Greg Dyer and Tim Zoehrer. Also Sangakarra and Flower, and to a lesser degree Gilchrist are rather different beasts as keeper bats.

Howarth was also world class for a time, given how ordinary you think most of our cricketers were its staggering how well we've done at times.
 

JJ

Immortal
Messages
32,587
Its not criticism as such. Its just removing parochial bias that the good player from my team is "world class". Its simply saying he was not world class in an era of Smith, Sehwag, Hayden and Langer.

And I'm not sure he is ahead of Vaughan, Gibbs, Gayle, Anwar, Trescothick (and probably Jayasuriya) when limited overs cricket value is considered as well. This is very good company to be in. But 'world class"? Is Richardson even "clearly" ahead of this group of players? No. He is not. But he is "clearly" beneath Smith, Sehwag, Hayden and Langer. Is World Class anyone who spent a 4 year plus period as a good team regular. I think world class is higher standard than that.

He doesn't have to be better, and who gives s toss about limited overs

He did well with minimal support in opening partners, and wasn't s flat track bully like several on your list

Not sure this is going anywhere, agree it's a shame Turner wasn't available more, but think we're pretty harsh rather than parochial about our cricketers tbh
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
Messages
8,014
He doesn't have to be better, and who gives s toss about limited overs

He did well with minimal support in opening partners, and wasn't s flat track bully like several on your list

Not sure this is going anywhere, agree it's a shame Turner wasn't available more, but think we're pretty harsh rather than parochial about our cricketers tbh

Often we're harsh when they're playing. Then they retire and their careers are viewed with rose tinted glasses.

You'll have to be more specific about which openers you're claiming Richardson is better than that were mentioned (bar Jayasuriya).
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
Messages
8,014
Most of that is simply bullshit tbh

Lees got a few tests and was a good player, the rest is crap or different times

On the lauded baggy green you're conveniently omitting such legends as Wayne Phillips, Greg Dyer and Tim Zoehrer. Also Sangakarra and Flower, and to a lesser degree Gilchrist are rather different beasts as keeper bats.

Howarth was also world class for a time, given how ordinary you think most of our cricketers were its staggering how well we've done at times.

Is that not between Marsh and Healey? I acknowledged that Sinclair and Hart were unfair inclusions between Parore and McCullum. Wayne Phillips proves the need for wicket keeper's batting. Aussies love him as a cricket legend for what he did in his career when dire times for Australian cricket. But they never call him world class. Greg Dyer isn't rated by Australians is he? That mid 80's period is a very sore point for Australians, you know, that period between Marsh and Healey. Zoehrer and his FC and international career or lack thereof as against Marsh, Healey and Gilchrist is quite famous in Australian cricket. Have a read around.

Howarth world class? This is such an outlandish call that it needs clarifying which Howarth you mean. If Geoff, then no. Playing county cricket is not determintive of being world class. Averaging less than 32 in FC, and 32 in tests is nowhere near world class. Hedley is not there either, but a very good FC record. But a test bowling average of 37 with a SR of 100 is not world class.
 
Last edited:

JJ

Immortal
Messages
32,587
Is that not between Marsh and Healey? I acknowledged that Sinclair and Hart were unfair inclusions between Parore and McCullum. Wayne Phillips proves the need for wicket keeper's batting. Aussies love him as a cricket legend for what he did in his career when dire times for Australian cricket. But they never call him world class. Greg Dyer isn't rated by Australians is he? That mid 80's period is a very sore point for Australians, you know, that period between Marsh and Healey. Zoehrer and his FC and international career or lack thereof as against Marsh, Healey and Gilchrist is quite famous in Australian cricket. Have a read around.

Howarth world class? This is such an outlandish call that it needs clarifying which Howarth you mean. If Geoff, then no. Playing county cricket is not determintive of being world class. Averaging less than 32 in FC, and 32 in tests is nowhere near world class. Hedley is not there either, but a very good FC record. But a test bowling average of 37 with a SR of 100 is not world class.

Check the retrospective ICC rankings, make of it what you will. I said for a period, not overall
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
Messages
8,014
Check the retrospective ICC rankings, make of it what you will. I said for a period, not overall

Well according to that form guide, at around the same time, Ian Botham was more a world class batsman than Geoff Howarth. Seems about right.

I make of it that Howarth had a purple patch of runs for 4 years (bar 1979) from 1978-82 surrounded by a career start and finish of three years each of absolute crap for an overall average of 32. That is 4 good years, and 7 crap years. Which would be good enough to put him in the running to be a world class bowling allrounder - if only he had bowled well like Botham and Dev.

Geoff Howarth is an important figure in NZ cricket, as is Jeremy Coney, Mark Burgess and Bevan Congdon. Their exploits are crucial to putting NZ cricket on the map leading to and during the 1980's reign of Hadlee and Crowe, but it does not make them world class as players whereas Turner, Hadlee and Crowe were.
 
Last edited:

vvvrulz

Coach
Messages
13,625
I am not sure how McCullum can be 'world class' when there are three wicket keepers in his era that you say are clearly miles ahead of him. And you havn't even mentioned Dhoni. Perhaps that then is 4 ahead of him. What about Prior? Is it 5 ahead of him? Perhaps world class needs a clearer definition. But I think he is straggling well behind the likes of Gilly, Sanga, Flower, Dhoni and Prior.

Watling, well if he continues the last couple of years - bar Australia tour- he is in the mix with more than a few of the aforementioned names as a keeper bat.

Don't forget though the role of a wicket-keeper changed dramatically in our generation, in the past you'd seldom see a keeper doubling up as a world class batsman.

Dhoni isn't very flash as a test keeper, bangs a lot of runs at home but is fodder anywhere else. Horrible captain. I'd rate McCullum ahead of him.

Prior, not even a comparison.
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
Messages
8,014
Don't forget though the role of a wicket-keeper changed dramatically in our generation, in the past you'd seldom see a keeper doubling up as a world class batsman.

The role has not changed. They still can wear gloves and pads on the field, and they can still bat. Perhaps you mean the expectations of batting ability and run scoring of keepers has risen post Stewart, Flower, Sanga, and the one who incorrectly gets all the credit, Mr Adam Gilchrist. It has reached the exalted and contentious heights of AB De Villiers, the best batsman in the team, the world even , keeping wicket (and averaging 58). But thats not really different to Andy Flower keeping.

The point is that batting from a wicket keeper was always important. That is why Alec Stewart kept wicket ahead of the more able gloveman Jack Russel. Its why Wayne Phillips started keeping for Australia, albeit with his batting failing in the weak Australian side era post Rod Marsh. Les Ames averaged over 40 in the 1930's as a test wicket keeper. So batsman like run scoring from a keeper is not as novel as you may think if you are part of the "Gilchrist changed it" mentality.

Dhoni isn't very flash as a test keeper, bangs a lot of runs at home but is fodder anywhere else. Horrible captain. I'd rate McCullum ahead of him.

Dhoni captained India to a world cup win and #1 ranking in tests. I will concede that he has had some amazing batting talent and quality spinners n his arsenal, but only an ageing Zaheer and a whole heap of crap for seam up. Maybe his 38 average in test cricket compares to Brendon's 34. But MSD has definitely kept to more spinners than Brendon, and his 294 dismissals is comparable to McCullum. McCullum only got through 54 tests or so as a keeper, Dhoni managed to get through over 90, and lot more limited overs matches. I think MSD's ODI batting record is misinterpreted favourably by the masses. But to rate McCullum ahead of Dhoni is contentious at best.

You should not criticise Dhoni's batting record comparatively without taking a close look at McCullums. McCullum has played near half his career as a specialist batsman. The facts are, he only scores runs on Asian roads and bullying Asian teams touring New Zealand.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/37737.html?class=1;template=results;type=batting

BMac has plundered a double century on an Indian road (match where Habhijan Singh got a century) and scored that double century against Pakistan in the Philip Hughes test in the UAE. That skews his touring record against India and Pakistan as being excellent. His away record anywhere else that is not Zimbabwe or Bangladesh is sub 30. He has plundered Blangladesh and India at home. His record against Pakistan at home is weak. And so is his overall record against Sri Lanka notwithstanding his double against them last year.
Basically, he scores runs on Asian roads that do not turn (because if they do turn as in Sri Lanka, he then fails), or when Asian countries that are not Pakistan tour New Zealand with pathetic seam bowlers. And Zimbabwe.

He is dominated by Australia, England, South Africa, West Indies, and typically by Pakistan when not on a UAE road where Philip Hughes has just died. Even Sri Lanka, bar that 195 on Boxing day typically have the best of him in New Zealand, let alone his 22 average in Sri Lanka.

Fact is: McCullum's 2014 is well after he quit being a keeper and inflates his current batting record but consisted of plundering a weak Indian seam attack on a road for a triple ton and double. Philip Hughes dies leading to a strange test match on an UAE road where NZ and Pakistan play 3 spinners each and Rahat Ali (36 bwl avg) and Mo Talha (56) opens the bowling for Pakistan and he scores a double. Pakistan went from 4-311 to all out for 351 and Craig got 7 wickets in the first innings. For me, that is the 'Phil Hughes' test. And he got a slogging 195 against a Sri Lanka team with no quality seamers on a Christchurch road.

So if you havn't got the gist of it yet, here it is. McCullum's record as a combined batsman sole and keeper batsman is no better than Dhoni's record as a Kepper batsman. Dhoni likes playing in NZ too. Averages over 50 here in NZ. But if Bangladesh, India and recently Sri Lanka continue to tour NZ with no decent seamers, BMac will get runs. But noone in England, South Africa, Pakistan, Australia or the West Indies teams will come to the New Zealand concerned about BMac's wicket on past performances, and that includes his century to set a total to chase of 106 against Australia in a match lost by 10 wickets. Because he cannot play good seam bowling, and we won't give a touring India or Sri Lanka a turning pitch to play on when they tour.

Prior, not even a comparison.
Prior averages 40 as a keeper. McCullum 34. McCullum debuted in 2004. Even on a Gilchrist changed everything analysis, that is well into the Flower, Gilchirst, Sanga period. Flower debut'd in 1992 and his test career was over in 2002. Gilchrist was about to have his batting fall away in 2005 Ashes and have his average continue to decrease.

So while I may disagree with you on the whole generation thing changing, the fact is, you concede that it had changed before McCullum debuted.

If Bmac does not score big runs in the test series against Australia, in the future when assessing his batting as against BJ Watling or international keepers, I think many cricket fans will refer to BMac's batting prowess as a keeper batsman (or in general) as 'mythical' in that lovely Antipodean expression "he's a myth". But if he scores big against Australia in February 2016, and New Zealand win the series in a 1-0 or 2-0, he will be incredibly fondly remembered in his almost certain soon to be announced retirement.
 
Last edited:

JJ

Immortal
Messages
32,587
Loved watching Gilchrist, but not clear to me why he 'correctly gets all the credit'

Being an explosive bat at #7 in one of the best teams in history with one of the best top 6s assembled (Dujon was similar) is different to keeping and batting #3 for a pretty weak team (Flower) or a decent one (Kumar).

Flower and Sangakarra are both better bats than Gilchrist (only talking tests) and as good with the gloves, if not better...

Horses for courses, of course - but if I could have one of the 3 to build a team around, Gilchrist would be the third (fourth if you include AB)
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
Messages
8,014
Loved watching Gilchrist, but not clear to me why he 'correctly gets all the credit'

Being an explosive bat at #7 in one of the best teams in history with one of the best top 6s assembled (Dujon was similar) is different to keeping and batting #3 for a pretty weak team (Flower) or a decent one (Kumar).

Flower and Sangakarra are both better bats than Gilchrist (only talking tests) and as good with the gloves, if not better...

Horses for courses, of course - but if I could have one of the 3 to build a team around, Gilchrist would be the third (fourth if you include AB)

I said that Gilchrist 'incorrectly gets all the credit'.

But I agree wholeheartedly with everything you have written above.
I further add that Andy Flower debuted like 7 years before Gilchrist. He also had the burden of captaincy for 1/3 of his test career.

I'd probably have Sanga and AB De Villiers both in my team and they can share the wicket keeping work load.

On Gilchrist, he averaged a mere 30 runs an innings during and through to retirement after the 2005 Ashes where England and Flintoff worked out that he struggled with right arm seam around the wicket on off stump. But he seems to be only remembered for his 5 years preceding that.
 
Last edited:

JJ

Immortal
Messages
32,587
I said that Gilchrist 'incorrectly gets all the credit'.

But I agree wholeheartedly with everything you have written above.

I further add that Andy Flower debuted like 7 years before Gilchrist. He also had the burden of captaincy for 1/3 of his test career.

I'd probably have Sanga and AB De Villiers both in my team and they can share the wicket keeping work load.

:lol: apologies, skimmed on my phone, and guess assumed given the Australian nature of the forum

Andy Flower is the most underrated great test cricketer I can think of
 

Latest posts

Top