2019 Discussion

[mxlegend99]

Panthers just posted this highlight reel of Nathan in the U20’s, and all the highlights are of him running the ball. This is his strength, and why I think he’s a good footballer. He however has never had natural playmaking ability, even before Hook.

Its a 45 second clip of highlights. They picked a few exciting moments for a quick clip.

 

[herbert henry1908]

You're right. Players dont ever improve after their 20s or evolve under new coaches. Nathan has peaked.

Not what I’m saying.

He can absolutely improve under the right coach, but he’ll never be a natural playmaker. He’s a system guy.

And yeah he hasnt even shown glimpses of being able to create tries. Oh unless ofcourse you've actually watched him play. His strike rate might not be as high as you like. But he has come up with some very nice try assists. Shown good vision a number of times on when to kick rather then pass. Or run himself before linking with others. As recently as 2 matches ago.

Which specific try assists would you say were very nice and showed natural playmaking ability?

I think the stats that were previously posted about how little the centres receive the ball from his passes show the issue. He’s a runner, not a passer.

 

[herbert henry1908]

Its a 45 second clip of highlights. They picked a few exciting moments for a quick clip.

You’d think they could find some highlights of a halfback setting up a nice try..

 

[mxlegend99]

Not what I’m saying.

He can absolutely improve under the right coach, but he’ll never be a natural playmaker. He’s a system guy.



Which specific try assists would you say were very nice and showed natural playmaking ability?

I think the stats that were previously posted about how little the centres receive the ball from his passes show the issue. He’s a runner, not a passer.

Some 2016 NRL highlights with try assists:


This is before he had been developed into what Hook wanted from a half. He has those abilities and has shown them in the NRL.

 

[herbert henry1908]

I have doubts over a few things next year. One of them is getting the help he needs on that right side. I think halfway into the 6 years we have him is when he will dominate.

The strength is he follows a game plan and works hard. Short term he'd be the one in the team that could nail a set play everytime. Get him working on that and his kicking game in the meantime

That he follows the game plan is good, but you need to be able to adjust. Plus the game plan is entirely coach dependent and we don’t have a good history there.

 

[mxlegend99]

You’d think they could find some highlights of a halfback setting up a nice try..

Here you go. In the NRL aswell.

The thing with a highlights clip is it only shows what the person who created it wanted to show.

Youre trying to use one to prove something that it wasn't created to show in the first place.

 

[herbert henry1908]

Some 2016 NRL highlights with try assists:


This is before he had been developed into what Hook wanted from a half. He has those abilities and has shown them in the NRL.

The kick to Peachey was the only exceptional try assist, the rest was mostly just solid passing. I’m talking about natural flare, creating something where nothing was on.

 

[franklin2323]

That he follows the game plan is good, but you need to be able to adjust. Plus the game plan is entirely coach dependent and we don’t have a good history there.

I think by year 6 he will be great...The 1st few years I have my doubts. how well we go next year for me is how well the hooker comes on and Maloney staying fit

 

[mxlegend99]

The kick to Peachey was the only exceptional try assist, the rest was mostly just solid passing. I’m talking about natural flare, creating something where nothing was on.

He shows vision in the clip. As an 18 year old rookie. Quick long passes from dummy half/first receiver to guys who are unmarked or one on one. Kicking when a pass is not on. Running when the situation prevents itself. He was reading the game and you can see he had to wait on a few occassions to execute what he wanted to do. At 18 years of age.

You said:

I’m writing off his playmaking ability, particularly in the final 20-30m.

Nathan Cleary is a very good footballer, but he has serious limitations in a key aspect of halfback play.

3 years ago he was showing a variety of abilities that basically got shelved until the final few weeks of 2018.

Everything you claim he is incapable of doing he has done before. Most of it in his rookie season. Considering everything we have learned about Hook and the team over the past few months (and many fans believed it long before that) It stands to reason a lot of the shortcomings people say our players have were actually areas where they were not allowed to develop under Hook.

Cleary is basically being crucified for doing exactly what his coach wanted him to do. Yet if he didnt he eould no doubt be at another club today copping shit for not doing what the coach wanted.

Edit

He’s a runner, not a passer.

The kick to Peachey was the only exceptional try assist, the rest was mostly just solid passing. I’m talking about natural flare, creating something where nothing was on.

Wait. What?

 

[umina panther]

Brilliant post MX

 

[OldPanther]

He shows vision in the clip. As an 18 year old rookie. Quick long passes from dummy half/first receiver to guys who are unmarked or one on one. Kicking when a pass is not on. Running when the situation prevents itself. He was reading the game and you can see he had to wait on a few occassions to execute what he wanted to do. At 18 years of age.

You said:

3 years ago he was showing a variety of abilities that basically got shelved until the final few weeks of 2018.

Everything you claim he is incapable of doing he has done before. Most of it in his rookie season. Considering everything we have learned about Hook and the team over the past few months (and many fans believed it long before that) It stands to reason a lot of the shortcomings people say our players have were actually areas where they were not allowed to develop under Hook.

Cleary is basically being crucified for doing exactly what his coach wanted him to do. Yet if he didnt he eould no doubt be at another club today copping shit for not doing what the coach wanted.

Edit



Wait. What?

Well said.

 

[jane the pain]

Panthers just posted this highlight reel of Nathan in the U20’s, and all the highlights are of him running the ball. This is his strength, and why I think he’s a good footballer. He however has never had natural playmaking ability, even before Hook.

OMG surely you are kidding?

 

[jane the pain]

You're right. Players dont ever improve after their 20s or evolve under new coaches. Nathan has peaked.

And yeah he hasnt even shown glimpses of being able to create tries. Oh unless ofcourse you've actually watched him play. His strike rate might not be as high as you like. But he has come up with some very nice try assists. Shown good vision a number of times on when to kick rather then pass. Or run himself before linking with others. As recently as 2 matches ago.

As he matures he will be able to use his experiences to more frequently come up with the right plays in situations like that. Throw in a new coach who will let him back himself and there's plenty of reason to be optimistic about him.

That's not to say it's a guarantee he gets better. There's no blanket rule for how players develop and evolve. He could very well have peaked already.

But when a player works as hard as Nathan does to improve. I am going to back him to do so. But on a new big deal he will certainly be held to a higher standard.

Nathan improved out of sight once hook was hooked.

 

[herbert henry1908]

He shows vision in the clip. As an 18 year old rookie. Quick long passes from dummy half/first receiver to guys who are unmarked or one on one. Kicking when a pass is not on. Running when the situation prevents itself. He was reading the game and you can see he had to wait on a few occassions to execute what he wanted to do. At 18 years of age.

They were mostly basic passes. I never said Cleary isn’t responsible for try assists, I’m saying he doesn’t create something when there’s nothing on.

3 years ago he was showing a variety of abilities that basically got shelved until the final few weeks of 2018.

Hook shelved passing to the centres? Or maybe Nathan just regressed naturally.

Everything you claim he is incapable of doing he has done before. Most of it in his rookie season. Considering everything we have learned about Hook and the team over the past few months (and many fans believed it long before that) It stands to reason a lot of the shortcomings people say our players have were actually areas where they were not allowed to develop under Hook.

The only thing I said he was incapable of is playmaking, genuinely creating something out of nothing. Good passing is not beyond him.

Wait. What?

I was making a broad point, of course he *can* pass the ball. My point was that it’s not his natural default. He’s much more of a runner of the ball, that’s his natural style.

 

[herbert henry1908]

I think by year 6 he will be great...The 1st few years I have my doubts. how well we go next year for me is how well the hooker comes on and Maloney staying fit

So he needs 100+ NRL games to become great?

He’ll be a good solid halfback for us, will never let the team down. But solid is his ceiling.

 

[herbert henry1908]

OMG surely you are kidding?

No, I’m not.

Running is his strength, he should do more of it.

Creating tries within the last 30 is his weakness, someone else will need to take control there.

 

[herbert henry1908]

If MX is right about Hook being the drag on Cleary’s ability then he should come good next year and really dominate. It’s his 4th season of NRL, he doesn’t need to wait any longer to really break out.

We’ll know soon enough if it was Hook or not.

 

[franklin2323]

So he needs 100+ NRL games to become great?

He’ll be a good solid halfback for us, will never let the team down. But solid is his ceiling.

Poor coaching, A revolving door of halves partners, Age for whatever reason he has been solid without being outstanding. All of those will take 2-3 seasons to fix.

If he has been coached out of playing footy. Needs games to fix it. Luai and him will take time to get a partnership going. I don't see the arrogance in him yet needed to dominate teams.

 

[jane the pain]

No, I’m not.

Running is his strength, he should do more of it.

Creating tries within the last 30 is his weakness, someone else will need to take control there.

OMG. You are delusional.

 

[franklin2323]

If MX is right about Hook being the drag on Cleary’s ability then he should come good next year and really dominate. It’s his 4th season of NRL, he doesn’t need to wait any longer to really break out.

We’ll know soon enough if it was Hook or not.

Hook wasn't coach when we had no idea how to score v Newcastle.