2nd Test: New Zealand v West Indies at Napier, Dec 19-23 2008

[Tonearm Terrorwrist]

sorry, did it touch a nerve ?

:sarcasm:

lol = laughing out loud

people usualy don't throw in lol when they're mad

 

[African Monkey]

It was great seeing Jamie How score a 50 but what was better was the two captains working as a team in agreeing to call the match off. It can be done guys.

 

[Iafeta]

are you trying to be funny?



lol you call 80 plenty of runs? you guys got rolled cheap after the incident and instead of building a lead and winning the test you're limping to a meak draw

We got rolled by Fidel Edwards. 7/87 does a lot more than 1/80 or whatever Powell ended up with. The thing is, Colin Croft had a bit of temper when he was in New Zealand in 1980/81, but he could back it up by the mere fact he was a class act. Michael Holding too. Powell's test average is 46 per wicket over 30 odd test matches. To put it in comparison, it'd be like Murphy Su'a bowling a series of long hops and then out of dismay with how poor he's gone throw one down the other end from halfway down the track after failing to deliver it. Powell, like Su'a, is a nobody. A test match myth.

 

[Iafeta]

does this officialy make new zealand the most inept side in the world for not being able to beat the most inept side in the world at home?

Yes.

They're 8th and frankly Bangladesh doesn't count. For the record, they were lucky to beat them too.

 

[African Monkey]

Powell, like Su'a, is a nobody. A test match myth.

:lol: at least Su'a didn't last as long as Powell has.

 

[Iafeta]

The worst thing is for New Zealand is the talk about Vettori. The media talk him up ad nauseum. But every time a test goes into the 4th or 5th day he has no ability whatsoever to roll a team, unless it's a nuffy batting line up. When there's a semblance of class, Vettori goes missing in the 2nd dig. He is not a match winning test bowler. This was another perfect chance for him to pick up 4-80 or something like that and seal the deal, but he's simply not able to do it. Overrated and not a big time match winner.

 

[African Monkey]

It's because Vettori doesn't turn the ball.

 

[Beavers Headgear]

I will take his 56 or 58 wickets or whatever it was this year any time Iafeta

We all know you have the thing against him, it is now getting boring reading it each match mate

I enjoyed the series all round personally, good competitive cricket. I see the potential for the NZ side to improve immensly but not so much on the Windies side. Can sort of see a mid 90s thing going on with our mob, with Flynn, Taylor and Ryder playing the roles of Astle, Fleming and McMillan coming through at that time. Just missing a bowler that can strike like we had around that time like Nash, Cairns etc

 

[JJ]

The thing is, Colin Croft had a bit of temper when he was in New Zealand in 1980/81, but he could back it up by the mere fact he was a class act. Michael Holding too. .

Often you make sense... but often you don't

There is no defending what Croft did, whether he was a great bowler or not, that was a despicable thing to do... and you're a stupid merkin for comparing it to what Powell did

 

[Iafeta]

I will take his 56 or 58 wickets or whatever it was this year any time Iafeta

We all know you have the thing against him, it is now getting boring reading it each match mate

I enjoyed the series all round personally, good competitive cricket. I see the potential for the NZ side to improve immensly but not so much on the Windies side. Can sort of see a mid 90s thing going on with our mob, with Flynn, Taylor and Ryder playing the roles of Astle, Fleming and McMillan coming through at that time. Just missing a bowler that can strike like we had around that time like Nash, Cairns etc

LOL what do I have against Vettori????? He is not a big match player. I have been criticised on this very forum for being protective of the guy as a cricketer.

Beavers, what is Vettori's record against the big teams, if we spare the also rans (EG Windies, Bangladesh and Zimbabwe...)

57 wickets v Australia at 35 - good return
45 wickets at 36.6 v England - average for a team that traditionally plays spinners not too well
19 wickets at 55.7 v India - poor
4 wickets at 100 v Pakistan - poor, albeit a small sample
18 wickets at 69.66 v South Africa - very ordinary
41 wickets at 21 v Sri Lanka - outstanding

In contrast, against the lower three countries...

46 wickets at 14.15 v Bangladesh - outstanding
23 wickets at 30 v Zimbabwe - poor for such weak opposition
33 wickets at 25.7 v West Indies - good

His record in the 4th innings of a test match...

28 wickets at 38.14 - poor for that's when a spinner should be ripping in

In 3rd innings

85 wickets at 32 - below average, a spinner could expect to be performing better later in the match

He is a beautiful flight bowler and thus he has a low economy rate. But his inability to spin the ball severely is a massive issue. He isn't helped by the fact he has no one at the other one putting massive pressure on for him, so he's often building pressure for the others instead, but he has become a stock bowler whose lost his ability to strike out a team in the fourth innings.

Forget the amount of wickets he took this year Beaver mate, aside from Bangladesh, Zimbabwe or the West Indies, when was the last time he ran through a side or won a test for his country. Gusty as hell with the bat, all too often having to haul his side out of the doldrums, effective without being a spectacular fielder, tidy bowler who MAY have been more effective had he had better support from the other end but nevertheless one whose record has holes in it against the bigger test nations and later on in test matches when spinners should be winning games for their teams.

 

[JJ]

100% right - but I don't think you can exclude the Windies...

He just doesn't offer anything beyond interesting variations in flight and pace... he's a lovely bowler, at least for containing and to some extent troubling batsmen... but questionable whether he's actually a spinner anymore, and as you point out on the critical task of actually dismissing batsmen... unless they're inept Vettori seems palpably incapable

 

[Iafeta]

Often you make sense... but often you don't

There is no defending what Croft did, whether he was a great bowler or not, that was a despicable thing to do... and you're a stupid merkin for comparing it to what Powell did

I do not condone what Colin Croft did, nor what Michael Holding did. I don't condone what Daren Powell did either. Croft and Holding had the ability to be remembered for more than what happened in Dunedin, Powell won't be remembered for much more. His test record is poor.

It's sad in a way to remember seeing the West Indies with Holding, Ambrose, Roberts, Walsh, Bishop, Garner, Marshall, Patterson, Croft and co rip out stumps left right and centre to seeing them now really struggling to pull out one consistent fast bowling performer. I hope Stanford's 20/20 millions can start pulling those types of athletes back into cricket rather than athletics and basketball because those guys were genuinely great to watch. The depth the Windies had in those times would have you questioning whether any of their current crop would have got any game time in the halcyon days.

 

[JJ]

I do not condone what Colin Croft did, nor what Michael Holding did. I don't condone what Daren Powell did either. Croft and Holding had the ability to be remembered for more than what happened in Dunedin, Powell won't be remembered for much more. His test record is poor.

It's sad in a way to remember seeing the West Indies with Holding, Ambrose, Roberts, Walsh, Bishop, Garner, Marshall, Patterson, Croft and co rip out stumps left right and centre to seeing them now really struggling to pull out one consistent fast bowling performer. I hope Stanford's 20/20 millions can start pulling those types of athletes back into cricket rather than athletics and basketball because those guys were genuinely great to watch. The depth the Windies had in those times would have you questioning whether any of their current crop would have got any game time in the halcyon days.

No doubt - their current bowling is about as good as our batting

To be honest, I disagree on Croft - yes, magnificent bowler, but I think he was forgiven far too easily for that... from the ground up officials (many volunteers etc) are treated far too poorly by players and spectators... it was disgraceful, and it should be what he was remembered for... Holding's act was stupid, but ultimately like Powell's harmless

 

[Iafeta]

You're probably right, it is probably unfair to dismiss the West Indians. It's strangely been their bowling that's gone awry over the past decade, the core of their batting is usually strong.

I will say though Vettori is a very good ODI and 20/20 spinner. His flight is great, I dare say the back injury he suffered at the beginning of his career has not helped him either. And still he'll go down in history as our most effective long term test spinner (pity about Grimmett) and I dare say he'll keep improving as a batsman but I would love to see us come to a fifth day situation and have faith in the bowling behind us that we can turn a 50/50 situation into a comfortable win.

 

[Iafeta]

Holding's act does make an impressive photo... John Parker readjusting his gloves, and man, Holding could get that leg up high!

Croft's actions were despicable. The whole tour was a shambles. I remember when they were getting done over in Christchurch and Clive Lloyd refused to bring the team back on after tea. Hadlee from memory got his maiden test century and you almost got the feeling that the West Indians, probably sans Desmond Haynes on that tour had given up the ghost. Umpiring wasn't terrific at times, but Hadlee was in his prime and their inability to work through the situation with respect and dignity was a sad indictment on what was otherwise an unbelievably brilliant era of cricket for them.

 

[JJ]

You're probably right, it is probably unfair to dismiss the West Indians. It's strangely been their bowling that's gone awry over the past decade, the core of their batting is usually strong.

I will say though Vettori is a very good ODI and 20/20 spinner. His flight is great, I dare say the back injury he suffered at the beginning of his career has not helped him either. And still he'll go down in history as our most effective long term test spinner (pity about Grimmett) and I dare say he'll keep improving as a batsman but I would love to see us come to a fifth day situation and have faith in the bowling behind us that we can turn a 50/50 situation into a comfortable win.

Shame about Grimmett indeed - with him and Jack Cowie we had two of the best bowlers... Cowie's one people seem to forget about (pace bowler of course)

In a test, I'd take Bracewell over Vettori any day - he won tests for us against quality opposition, simple as that

 

[Iafeta]

Bracewell is the polar opposite of Vettori. Bracewell was aggressive, could be inaccurate, Vettori is always tidy and at you. Bracewell ripping out the Australians at Eden Park was a great spell.

 

[African Monkey]

Forget the amount of wickets he took this year Beaver mate, aside from Bangladesh, Zimbabwe or the West Indies, when was the last time he ran through a side or won a test for his country.

He never has and he never will.

What made me laugh was when Panesar bowled us out in Manchester this year for not many, England still needed 300 on a turning track and our media was talking him up so much as if he was some proven match winner
and he came away with 1 wicket and we lost comfortably by about 7 wickets. I'm sure the same happened 10 years previously when England came down.

 

[Iafeta]

There's also another one from Cowie's era... Pritchard I think his name was, he was signed up to play for Warwickshire and thus only played 1 test for New Zealand. His county record was phenomenal. New Zealand had 4-5 genuinely fine cricketers back in those days such as Dempster, Cowie and a couple of others, but then the rest of them were fairly ordinary and they weren't able to compete till that great day against the West Indians.

 

[African Monkey]

Bracewell is the polar opposite of Vettori. Bracewell was aggressive, could be inaccurate, Vettori is always tidy and at you. Bracewell ripping out the Australians at Eden Park was a great spell.

Matthew Hart also ripped through the South Africans in 1995.