Bret Stewart >Josh Dugan & Hayne

[Poupou Escobar]

Hayne needs an attitude adjustment to be any good.

You don't like his facial expression or what?

In his two years at fullback he came first and then second in the NRL in running metres.

Are you saying he gets too involved? What a sh*thouse attitude.

Or do you just not like the fact he plays up to the crowd? That might make him hated by opposing fans but it's got nothing to do with his ability, or the way he's regarded by the top people in the game.

This is all very good but at the end of the day stats don't tell the entire story. For starters the Dally M is a media driven award with less prestige than the old Rothmans medal and probably less accurate than the Players Player awards.

Hayne is a very good attacking weapon, he is big and strong but while he may have the most try saves he is also among the worst fullbacks in the NRL in terms of his positioning, a mile away from Slater, Stewart and Dugan.

So how does he have more try saves than all of them?

Positioning is all about experience. Of Hayne's 115 first grade games he's only played just over half (66) at fullback. He's also played 32 on the wing, 13 at centre and 4 at five-eighth.

He mightn't have played as many games at fullback as older players like Slater but his positioning is still good enough to top the NRL in try saves.

He is also worse than all 3 under the high ball.

Says who? This year he made less errors this year than both Slater and Dugan - this from a player who gets the ball more than either of them.

Two moments I do remember of Hayne under the high ball this year are against QLD in Origin where he made a 50m line-break despite taking the bomb in traffic, and then there's that try against Penrith.

Hayne has never won an origin match from fullback either.

No but he's only played 2 games at fullback, against the best Origin team ever. However from the wing he has won the Brad Fittler Medal twice (in four years of Origin).

He has a LONG way to go to become the king.

I think you're confusing exploits (which belong in the past) with playing ability - Lockyer has achieved everything in the game but he's a shadow of the player he was 5 or 6 years ago, and the Broncos only keep him around for his kicking and leadership.

Here's Lockyer's linebreaks and try assists stats:
'98 - 38 (?)
'99 - 31 (5)
'00 - 27 (16)
'01 - 19 (19)
'02 - 27 (17)
'03 - 13 (14)
'04 - 7 (23)
'05 - 15 (21)
'06 - 10 (22)
'07 - 1 (10)
'08 - 0 (12)
'09 - 5 (14)
'10 - 6 (11)

Slater and Minichiello both have origin players of the year

Hayne's won Blues best player twice in the four years he's played Origin.

Slater a CC medalist (another medal with more prestige than the Dally M).

Clive Churchill Medal is also a media-driven political award. Slater won it last year despite running less metres than Hayne (who ran for more metres than everybody on the field other than Mateo) and breaking less tackles.

Yet he won the Clive Churchill for one high profile act (he backed up on the inside for a try) against a defence it turns out was worth over a million dollars less than the defence Hayne was running at.

Slater also dropped a bomb near his line with the Storm only up by 6 and Parra coming home with a wet sail.

Now it's been revealed that Slater's been playing in an illegal super team for the past 5 years, Slater and Hayne have won the same amount of premierships - zero.

But Slater's been playing for a lot longer, and has only been an Origin regular at fullback the last 2 years since Karmichael Hunt got the arse. Slater was axed in '05 after a woeful Game 2, didn't play in '06 (he was suspended 3 times that year for a total of 11 matches) or '07 (injury), and was once again dumped from fullback after a woeful Game 1 in 2008. He came off the bench in Game 3 to play quite well at fullback however.

But Slater is 27 and has only played 14 Origin games. Hayne's 22 and has already played 11.

Admittedly Hayne is competing for a spot in a much worse Origin team, so has an easier time of it. However he also has much less support on the field than Billy Slater, who has been surrounded by superstars for his entire career.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

The thing about Dugan is how good he is already but how much he has left to do in the game. Starred in the C v C this year, a sign that he has the ability to lift in bigger games.

City-Country is a f**king exhibition game with all the real stars watching at home. Has Dugan ever won Man of the Match in the finals?

Dugan really shouldn't be part of this until he has had his time in the sky blue. Otherwise he hasn't achieved enough to make a fair comparison.

Dugan will be 21 before Origin starts next year and has never played. By the time Hayne was 21 he'd been a Blues regular for two years. Hell, Hayne made his Australian debut at 19.

Dugan's a good player and will probably get a call-up to Origin at some stage of his career, but he's just unlucky to be playing in the same era as Jarryd Hayne. I guess Hayne will retire before Dugan (being 2 years older) so Josh will have a couple of years out of Hayne's shadow at the end of his career.

 

[1 Eyed TEZZA]

Slater has overtaken Mini now.

Arguable, but not an outrageous comment. For me, Slater needs to show more consistency and the fact that his club side have been cheats while he was at his best doesn't help.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Arguable, but not an outrageous comment. For me, Slater needs to show more consistency and the fact that his club side have been cheats while he was at his best doesn't help.

Don't forget he's the only Australian fullback ever to lose a World Cup final.

 

[1 Eyed TEZZA]

Don't forget he's the only Australian fullback ever to lose a World Cup final.

Ummmm how about Immortal and captain Graeme Langlands?

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Ummmm how about Immortal and captain Graeme Langlands?

Never lost a final - the 1972 final ended in a draw. Britain were awarded the Cup due to being undefeated through the tournament.

 

[nz eagle]

They are all great fullbacks although I wouldn't put Dugan in with the other 3 at this stage - in 3 or 4 years I can see Dugan being the best fullback in the game if he continues to improve.

All I know is that Manly are at least 50% better on attack with Stewart worrying the defense. Even if he lost 10% of his pace he would still be up there with the quickest in the NRL.

We have missed Stewart the last two seasons, with his skills and pace adding another dimension to our attack, as well as putting many defences in two minds, he is also great at backing up breaks and finishing them off which we have been missing in the last two years.

I just hope that he gets through next season without one of his legs falling off, I would be happy if he just has a decent season.

 

[winnyason]

He will make manly scare teams again him back with wolfman along with t rex and the emerging will hopoate, don't really care about origin.
He has strike power in the 20 m red zone which we miss, injury will slow him a little still we have x factor.
But the suspension thing can matai serve games in four nations and glenn stewart in trial games

 

[Bman26]

Don't forget he's the only Australian fullback ever to lose a World Cup final.

So does that then look badly on Lockyer, is his career tarnished? Thurston? Cameron Smith? Greg Inglis?

Hmmmmm?

 

[Fibroman]

If Penrith had a decent coach and moved Lachie Coote into the halves, Micky Gordon into the centres and Michael Jennings to fullback, you would all have to have a re-think.

 

[umina panther]

If Penrith had a decent coach and moved Lachie Coote into the halves, Micky Gordon into the centres and Michael Jennings to fullback, you would all have to have a re-think.

i dunno about jennings under the high ball but just imagine his kick returns.... wow

 

[Poupou Escobar]

So does that then look badly on Lockyer, is his career tarnished?

How isn't it?

Thurston? Cameron Smith? Greg Inglis?

Hmmmmm?

Yep all of them.

If they want to be remembered for the highs they can hardly hide from the lows can they?

How about Phil Sigsworth? Played Origin, played for Australia, won a premiership.

Also has the distinction of losing grand finals against Parramatta while playing for 3 different teams (Newtown, Manly, Canterbury).

This is part of his story - you take the good with the bad.

Nathan Cayless. Most capped captain in NRL history and staunch one-club man. Also captained a world cup-winning Kiwi team. Never won a premiership.

You take the good with the bad. Lockyer, Thurston, those Storm players - all lost the world cup final. Doesn't mean they're not great players, but it's not something they'll ever erase.

 

[typicalfan]

So how does he have more try saves than all of them?

Positioning is all about experience. Of Hayne's 115 first grade games he's only played just over half (66) at fullback. He's also played 32 on the wing, 13 at centre and 4 at five-eighth.

He mightn't have played as many games at fullback as older players like Slater but his positioning is still good enough to top the NRL in try saves.



Says who? This year he made less errors this year than both Slater and Dugan - this from a player who gets the ball more than either of them.

Two moments I do remember of Hayne under the high ball this year are against QLD in Origin where he made a 50m line-break despite taking the bomb in traffic, and then there's that try against Penrith.



No but he's only played 2 games at fullback, against the best Origin team ever. However from the wing he has won the Brad Fittler Medal twice (in four years of Origin).



I think you're confusing exploits (which belong in the past) with playing ability - Lockyer has achieved everything in the game but he's a shadow of the player he was 5 or 6 years ago, and the Broncos only keep him around for his kicking and leadership.

Here's Lockyer's linebreaks and try assists stats:
'98 - 38 (?)
'99 - 31 (5)
'00 - 27 (16)
'01 - 19 (19)
'02 - 27 (17)
'03 - 13 (14)
'04 - 7 (23)
'05 - 15 (21)
'06 - 10 (22)
'07 - 1 (10)
'08 - 0 (12)
'09 - 5 (14)
'10 - 6 (11)



Hayne's won Blues best player twice in the four years he's played Origin.



Clive Churchill Medal is also a media-driven political award. Slater won it last year despite running less metres than Hayne (who ran for more metres than everybody on the field other than Mateo) and breaking less tackles.

Yet he won the Clive Churchill for one high profile act (he backed up on the inside for a try) against a defence it turns out was worth over a million dollars less than the defence Hayne was running at.

Slater also dropped a bomb near his line with the Storm only up by 6 and Parra coming home with a wet sail.

Now it's been revealed that Slater's been playing in an illegal super team for the past 5 years, Slater and Hayne have won the same amount of premierships - zero.

But Slater's been playing for a lot longer, and has only been an Origin regular at fullback the last 2 years since Karmichael Hunt got the arse. Slater was axed in '05 after a woeful Game 2, didn't play in '06 (he was suspended 3 times that year for a total of 11 matches) or '07 (injury), and was once again dumped from fullback after a woeful Game 1 in 2008. He came off the bench in Game 3 to play quite well at fullback however.

But Slater is 27 and has only played 14 Origin games. Hayne's 22 and has already played 11.

Admittedly Hayne is competing for a spot in a much worse Origin team, so has an easier time of it. However he also has much less support on the field than Billy Slater, who has been surrounded by superstars for his entire career.

He has more try saves than all of them because he is physically bigger and stronger and is good at getting under the ball close to the line. There are plenty of examples of Hayne arriving late and being exploited like v Roosters this year.

Positioning is partly to do with experience, it also has to do with attitude and application. Josh Dugan has played less first grade games than Hayne but is rarely caught out of position. Slater is the best at it, almost always gets the ball on the full and with all his momentum moving forward.

Try saves aren't a positional statistic. Compare to Billy Slater who is almost always there on time regardless of whether his effort is successful or not. Plenty of times when Hayne is caught infield and doesn't get across. It is a criticism of Hayne that I have heard from top coaches and respected opinions.

Slater is more involved in his team than Hayne, if not based on how many times he grabs the ball, then by how many times he is sitting back running the plays. One area that Slater is a long way ahead of Hayne and any other fullback in.

Dugan can make the odd unforced error but he is already one of the main men in his side and that is without any origin experience.

So you have two examples ALL year of being good under the high ball. Dugan is probably the safest under the high ball, you don't see him drop many.

Hayne has won awards on the wing yes but hardly an indicator on his ability at fullback

To be king you have to be the best. Slater is the best. He has a mortgage on all rep jerseys and Hayne is no threat to take his jerseys.

Lockyer isn't the player he was and his overall stats are rarely near the top but when the game is on the line give me Lockyer over Hayne even now.

The CC medal is awarded by the same people who pick the rep sides, not journalists and media "experts" like the Dally M. So it isn't a media driven award.

Yes but Slater is still the undisputed no.1 regardless of the Storm drama. He still managed to be the rep player of the year. This is the same idiotic argument about C Smith. They are elite players in the game regardless of the Storm drama and if you can't make your opinion otherwise then I would suggest you give it a go.

Slater has been playing a lot longer and is more experienced yes, another reason why Hayne is not king.

Slater has been surrounded by superstars yes but that is also a weak argument I hear a lot on here. Surely you concede of those superstars Slater is among the biggest and best. Gary Belcher, Graeme Langlands, Garry Jack, Darren Lockyer etc all surrounded by superstars throughout their careers, no one denies their talents.

People don't like Slater because he is a bit of a grub but in reality he is the best fullback since Darren Lockyer was at the back imo.

 

[thorson1987]

He has more try saves than all of them because he is physically bigger and stronger and is good at getting under the ball close to the line. There are plenty of examples of Hayne arriving late and being exploited like v Roosters this year.

Positioning is partly to do with experience, it also has to do with attitude and application. Josh Dugan has played less first grade games than Hayne but is rarely caught out of position. Slater is the best at it, almost always gets the ball on the full and with all his momentum moving forward.

Try saves aren't a positional statistic. Compare to Billy Slater who is almost always there on time regardless of whether his effort is successful or not. Plenty of times when Hayne is caught infield and doesn't get across. It is a criticism of Hayne that I have heard from top coaches and respected opinions.

Slater is more involved in his team than Hayne, if not based on how many times he grabs the ball, then by how many times he is sitting back running the plays. One area that Slater is a long way ahead of Hayne and any other fullback in.

Dugan can make the odd unforced error but he is already one of the main men in his side and that is without any origin experience.

So you have two examples ALL year of being good under the high ball. Dugan is probably the safest under the high ball, you don't see him drop many.

Hayne has won awards on the wing yes but hardly an indicator on his ability at fullback

To be king you have to be the best. Slater is the best. He has a mortgage on all rep jerseys and Hayne is no threat to take his jerseys.

Lockyer isn't the player he was and his overall stats are rarely near the top but when the game is on the line give me Lockyer over Hayne even now.

The CC medal is awarded by the same people who pick the rep sides, not journalists and media "experts" like the Dally M. So it isn't a media driven award.

Yes but Slater is still the undisputed no.1 regardless of the Storm drama. He still managed to be the rep player of the year. This is the same idiotic argument about C Smith. They are elite players in the game regardless of the Storm drama and if you can't make your opinion otherwise then I would suggest you give it a go.

Slater has been playing a lot longer and is more experienced yes, another reason why Hayne is not king.

Slater has been surrounded by superstars yes but that is also a weak argument I hear a lot on here. Surely you concede of those superstars Slater is among the biggest and best. Gary Belcher, Graeme Langlands, Garry Jack, Darren Lockyer etc all surrounded by superstars throughout their careers, no one denies their talents.

People don't like Slater because he is a bit of a grub but in reality he is the best fullback since Darren Lockyer was at the back imo.

 

[Loudstrat]

Im glad this thread has not (until now) mentioned cutie!

Mini was better at fullback than Heather anyway.

Stewart was better than Slater - who only gota Kangaroos jumper because Stewart was injured.

Hayne in 2009 had arguably the best form of any fullback over a 2 month period in History. Dugan stands out because he plys for the Raiders - dunno whether he is better than Zillman in that jumper - and he has to get past not only Hayne by Lachlan Coote to get his hands on the Blue 1 jumper.

I really hope Snake gets back to his best - aside from Hayne's 10 or so games last year, Snake wqs the best I have seen all decade - and yes I know Slater, Mini (and Bowen and Hodgeson) have all be brilliant in their time.

 

[Raiders_Premiers]

F**k off Loudstrat you tool

 

[Loudstrat]

Sore point eh? Just because Dugan is a (rare) decent player in a Slime jumper doesn't mean he's an all time great. At the moment he's like Paul Taylor - a club favorite who never played Origin. Except Taylor won premierships.
Dugan merely replaced Campo, Tongue and The Super Macs as the latest thing to masturbate over if you live in the soulless Capital. Yes, Dugan is a good player. No, he ain't anywhere near Hayne, Snake, Mini, Hodgeson or even David Peachey at their best -and unless he does a Monaghan, Carney or Weyman (or potentially a Zillman) and leave Canberra he won't know what it's like to be in a GF.

He can come to Parra if he likes, because we need a potentially good winger to replace Grothe

 

[Stagger eel]

Sore point eh? Just because Dugan is a (rare) decent player in a Slime jumper doesn't mean he's an all time great. At the moment he's like Paul Taylor - a club favorite who never played Origin. Except Taylor won premierships.
Dugan merely replaced Campo, Tongue and The Super Macs as the latest thing to masturbate over if you live in the soulless Capital. Yes, Dugan is a good player. No, he ain't anywhere near Hayne, Snake, Mini, Hodgeson or even David Peachey at their best -and unless he does a Monaghan, Carney or Weyman (or potentially a Zillman) and leave Canberra he won't know what it's like to be in a GF.

He can come to Parra if he likes, because we need a potentially good winger to replace Grothe

I like it..

 

[typicalfan]

Im glad this thread has not (until now) mentioned cutie!

Mini was better at fullback than Heather anyway.

Stewart was better than Slater - who only gota Kangaroos jumper because Stewart was injured.

Hayne in 2009 had arguably the best form of any fullback over a 2 month period in History. Dugan stands out because he plys for the Raiders - dunno whether he is better than Zillman in that jumper - and he has to get past not only Hayne by Lachlan Coote to get his hands on the Blue 1 jumper.

I really hope Snake gets back to his best - aside from Hayne's 10 or so games last year, Snake wqs the best I have seen all decade - and yes I know Slater, Mini (and Bowen and Hodgeson) have all be brilliant in their time.

Main reason I think Dugan should be left out of the debate. Dugan is a good reference because there are areas in his game that come naturally that Hayne doesn't seen to grasp. But apart from that unless he makes it to rep level I don't see it could be fair to include him.

On the other hand Hayne and Stewart are freaks with what they can do with the ball.

 

[Big Pete]

Arguable, but not an outrageous comment. For me, Slater needs to show more consistency and the fact that his club side have been cheats while he was at his best doesn't help.

I'm beginning to think Minichiello is a tad overated around these parts. Don't get me wrong he is a great player...but so are Hayne and Slater. Hell I don't think it's risky at all saying Slater's 8 years at fullback puts him ahead of Minichiello's 4.

As for Stewart, 'woulda coulda shoulda'. Don't get me wrong, was a fine fullback and one I feel doesn't get the credit he deserves (especially from me back in the day). But the past two years has put him behind the 8 ball and with Hayne, Dugan and Coote coming through I find it hard to see him challenging them in the long run.