Can we all finally accept that stadiums are better than suburban parks?

[Frank Discussion]

Because you are not sustainable on your current sub 13k crowd avg. That's not my opinion it is shown in fact with the millions you are losing every year. Unless the LC refurb produces a multi million $ profit every year the $18mill in the bank isnt going to last long, and those in the know seem to be suggesting pokies are not a long term sustainable source of income
The only long term survival is building your attendance and corporate support. You're not alone, Dragons and Manly face the same problem and Penrith would if their pokie fund dries up.

If you cant see that significant upgrades to the ground with more corporate boxes, more seated options and more varied game day options (watch from the terrace, or from behind glass) isn't going to increase the home average than you are dumber than I thought.

 

[Perth Red]

You know most clubs in the NRL comp lose money...Listen to what Phil Gould says:

We dont yet know how the significant $3mil a year grant increase has effected that profit/loss scenario. It may well be that now must clubs are sustainable, and the ones that are losing money on the football club side have secondary sources of revenue that are covering the losses? It only becomes a significant problem if you are losing money and having to carry those losses year to year or borrow to cover them ala the Sharks in recent times.

 

[bad boy bubby]

TBF he said there was no plans to relocate the club to another city, not anything about the stadium. Aside from LC game day activity (and you not be able to ride your bike to the game) is there a reason Sharks and Dragons playing out of a new 30k stadium in Southern Sydney wouldnt be a win for both clubs. IS there anywhere on the train line that would make geographical sense from a transport point of view?

A 30k Stadium would be good at Loftus.
A direct Train line, in Sharks territory, and half way between Kogarah and the Gong
As soon as the consortium for the A-League team (Shire/St.George/Woolongong) was rejected this wasnt going to happen.
If the blame has to be put somewhere for that consortium being rejected, look no further than Sydney FC and the FFA. They didnt want the Shire soccer community leaving the Sydney FC docks.
As said earlier, the Shires junior soccer association is definitely the biggest in the country, and for a long time was reported to be the biggest in the southern hemisphere (including the South American countries), I dont know if it is still. Instead the powers to be in that game (soccer australia) decided to go to western Sydney again.
The consortium wanted to build a stadium in the area i have stated, it would have worked.

This is all hypothetical now though, unless the state and/or federal governments want to fund another new stadium it will not be built.
So the Sharks are looking after themselves.

PR I know you dont hate the Sharks, I know your frustration comes from the lack of foresight and a team in Perth. I lived there for a year just before the Reds started, there was a lot of hype from everyone, Rugby League was bigger than Union then, and there was never a problem to watch a game, unless the Vicos had taken over a pub (they'd get forced out anyway).
We're doing our darndest to not only survive, but to thrive as well. Look at our junior system, we put in a great deal more work than the most clubs except Penrith and maybe Parra. We are doing this so we have some great building blocks to keep the team going for years to come.
When you go all negative we do take it personally, but i do get where you are coming from, it just comes out all f**ked up.
If the Sharks die off it wont be from lack of trying for success thats for sure.
Take it easy.

edit: and being in the finals 7 times in the last 8 years is pretty good going. Up with the big players in the comp thats for sure

 

[Perth Red]

If it has a capacity of 20k (or whatever) so the ground isn't limited to 13k.

The corporate facilities are one of the things being upgraded.

Trying to raise money through crowds is probably the hardest way to make a dollar. Diverting money into other revenue making exercises would be more reliable and probably more profitable.

Its comfortable capacity isnt 20k, its covered capacity is probably less than 10k? and to get to 18k you need your very top drawing games to be reaching over 20k in order for the lower drawing games in crap weather or timeslots to be avg'd out.

Great that corporate boxes are being added that will significantly help.

Its not many businesses that do well without growing sales to customer base! With the loss of the annual revenue from the retail side of the development there continues to be a significant revenue gap for the Sharks as stated by your CEO in that podcast based on this years financial performance (and thats with the $3mill NRL grant increase and not having to service any debt). Get your crowds up and you can cover that gap sustainably.

 

[carcharias]

Hotel, bars, restaurants and multiple specialty shops in a brand new state of the art precinct ...all within the development.
The beach less than a kilometre away.
The main CBD of Cronulla with all its night life and entertainment options only minutes away by shuttle....and a simple 20 minute beach front walk .
The flow on to the footy will be unprecedented.

Only a f**king complete moron would claim the Sharks are not in a great position for the future.
A position that any other club will undoubtedly envy for many years to come.

I can’t wait to see it finished.

 

[Perth Red]

Yes, in a perfect world there would be a brand spanking new Bankwest Style stadium somewhere in Sydneys south but it's a pipedream that will never happen- so its like discussing what you would do with the 150million powerball win; nice but a fantasy and ultimately a waste of time. I can tell you again, for a fact, that there has been no dialogue with the Dragons or with State Govt about it happening at board or executive level. It is simply not on the cards.

How can you say the former when you then admit the latter? One thing is for sure it will never happen if there isnt a vision or will for it to happen from the clubs and NRL. NSW Govt isnt going to come up with the idea and funding on their own.

 

[Frank Discussion]

One thing is for sure it will never happen if there isnt a vision or will for it to happen from the clubs .

And there isnt a vision. The boards and executive teams of the Sharks and Dragons are busy getting on with the business of running their clubs. Again, it's not going to happen. You may disagree with it- but thats the reality of the situation.

 

[Perth Red]

And there isnt a vision. The boards and executive teams of the Sharks and Dragons are busy getting on with the business of running their clubs. Again, it's not going to happen. You may disagree with it- but thats the reality of the situation.

Well in that case good luck, and I mean that. I want Sharks to be a financial powerhouse as I do all the clubs, I cant see it but you never know, stranger things have happened.

In the mean time lets get the Tigers and Doggies to Bankwest FT and see if they can kick on with that amazing stadium and join the Eels in cracking 20k crowds.

 

[Frank Discussion]

Well in that case good luck, and I mean that. I want Sharks to be a financial powerhouse as I do all the clubs, I cant see it but you never know, stranger things have happened.

I seriously don't know how you equate success to only to having a brand new stadium.
You seem to think that a large, brand new stadium automatically leads to being a financial powerhouse. Why then, haven't all the clubs just gone out and built one? Stretching your resources on a single piece of infrastructure with a long pay off seems bad business for mine; when as it is pointed out that the vast majority of clubs lose money as is*.

You've got your head stuck in the English game in the 80s when clubs lived and died on their gates. The world has changed and shiny stadiums and big crowds are only part of the financial puzzle and are dwarfed by broadcast and other revenue streams (Souths for example have huge property holdings that are largely un-published).

*With the exception of clubs like Parramatta who are getting gifted infrastructure from the state govt.

 

[taipan]

Somebody doesn’t understand the concept of avg’s! The big games over 20k bring up the avg for the small games that get 15k.

I'm fully aware of the concept of averages.My point which you fail to grasp because you're always flogging the big stadium argument ,as being the only answer is:

iI you have a rl tragic city of 2m as Brisbane is supposed to be and you have a stadium of 50,000 (one of the best going around,) and you average 3/5 of capacity, whilst on paper a good crowd in the NRL scheme of things, it still shows the stadium as being 3/5 full, not 4/5 full.

IOW you can have the best stadium for the NRL, and still not fill it on a regular basis.That is fact.And I won't even bring in the Titans.So at times the build it and they will come doesn't;t always take shape.

Even in the AFL there are teams with big fans bases and others with lesser ones in Melbourne.So even there the big one's averages help bring up the smaller one's averages.Simples.

So as much as you continually and nauseatingly bag the smaller Sydney NRL clubs ,they like the AFL ones have a place in the competition.And if they are also doing something about improving their crowds and facilities, they don't need whiners from thousands of kms away, telling them how to run the show.

 

[Perth Red]

I seriously don't know how you equate success to only to having a brand new stadium.
You seem to think that a large, brand new stadium automatically leads to being a financial powerhouse. Why then, haven't all the clubs just gone out and built one? Stretching your resources on a single piece of infrastructure with a long pay off seems bad business for mine; when as it is pointed out that the vast majority of clubs lose money as is*.

You've got your head stuck in the English game in the 80s when clubs lived and died on their gates. The world has changed and shiny stadiums and big crowds are only part of the financial puzzle and are dwarfed by broadcast and other revenue streams (Souths for example have huge property holdings that are largely un-published).

*With the exception of clubs like Parramatta who are getting gifted infrastructure from the state govt.

Probably because pretty much all the most financially successful clubs in the country in all codes are playing in modern stadiums??? Call me old fashioned but facts like that tend to sway my ideas.

They havent because some are still stuck on 1980's busness modelling. And stadiums in this country cost a lot of money and are out of the reach of most clubs self funding. That doesnt mean it shouldnt be an end goal with a strategy to match. It wasnt until clubs in UK were forced to upgrade their stadia that they did, most clubs are worried about winning a cup next season, not thinking ten years down the track about financial sustainability.

Most clubs in NRL are losing money BECAUSE they havent modernised their business and their customer facilities. I can really only think of one club with large crowds in any comp that has financially stuffed it and that is Newcastle and I still scratch my head how they arent financially sound with that fanbase. Every other large drawing club is doing well and some like the big AFL clubs are absolutely rolling in it with their football clubs generating $75mill plus revenue a year and making $6-10mill annual profits. But yeh keep telling yourself crowds dont matter and lets see how you go over the next 5 years.

 

[taipan]

Considering the three of the four clubs with the biggest avg’s have the fewest Jnrs and some of the smallest crowd clubs have the biggest Jnr bases I’m not sure your argument rings true on this one!

And I guess when you see the crowds for these clubs with bigger averages, you believe there are stacks of youngsters running around.From what I see, they are there but not in huge numbers.And guess what that includes Melbourne.
Give Easts a few bad years and see their crowds .Anzac Day is a big help.
I suggest you spend time at Cronulla games and there are kids everywhere the hill is full of them.Parramatta and Penrith have large junior bases, as does Broncos,Canberra and Newcastle.
The kids that attend (and juniors get discounts) are there for the next 50-60 years, the old ones naturally not so.
There are large numbers of girls playing variations of rl in the Shire now.You are kidding yourself if you think having a big junior league doesn't help support in the long term.My wife got involved as her brother (now in Perth)played in the Dragons juniors and his son played in the Newcastle area.

But of course all you can see , is a Perth club marching in over the dead boy of a Sydney NRL club.That for you justifies everything.

 

[Suitman]

A 30k Stadium would be good at Loftus.
A direct Train line, in Sharks territory, and half way between Kogarah and the Gong
As soon as the consortium for the A-League team (Shire/St.George/Woolongong) was rejected this wasnt going to happen.
If the blame has to be put somewhere for that consortium being rejected, look no further than Sydney FC and the FFA. They didnt want the Shire soccer community leaving the Sydney FC docks.
As said earlier, the Shires junior soccer association is definitely the biggest in the country, and for a long time was reported to be the biggest in the southern hemisphere (including the South American countries), I dont know if it is still. Instead the powers to be in that game (soccer australia) decided to go to western Sydney again.
The consortium wanted to build a stadium in the area i have stated, it would have worked.

This is all hypothetical now though, unless the state and/or federal governments want to fund another new stadium it will not be built.
So the Sharks are looking after themselves.

PR I know you dont hate the Sharks, I know your frustration comes from the lack of foresight and a team in Perth. I lived there for a year just before the Reds started, there was a lot of hype from everyone, Rugby League was bigger than Union then, and there was never a problem to watch a game, unless the Vicos had taken over a pub (they'd get forced out anyway).
We're doing our darndest to not only survive, but to thrive as well. Look at our junior system, we put in a great deal more work than the most clubs except Penrith and maybe Parra. We are doing this so we have some great building blocks to keep the team going for years to come.
When you go all negative we do take it personally, but i do get where you are coming from, it just comes out all f**ked up.
If the Sharks die off it wont be from lack of trying for success thats for sure.
Take it easy.

edit: and being in the finals 7 times in the last 8 years is pretty good going. Up with the big players in the comp thats for sure

That is the best, most balanced post I have seen in this thread.
You are correct that Sydney FC, the Lowy's and the FFA stifled the Southern Sydney A-League bid, who were going to fund their own 30 000 stadium at Loftus, purely to protect Sydney FC's interest. Disgraceful decision. Sydney FC have had over a decade to solidify their future.
They've had a long period of sustained success, much of that with a monopoly as a 1 team city, yet, they have underachieved crowd and member wise and failed to cement their place as the city's No 1 team. They are lucky they have a billionaire Russian owner to underwrite their losses.

Furthermore, PR clearly doesn't hate the Sharks, he is just frustrated at the lack of progress and foresight some Sydney clubs have in securing their future and developing their support. You make a great point re the Sharks trying to secure their financial future with all the development at Woolaware Bay. They are probably doing more than any other Sydney club in this regard.

I believe the Sharks have a very limited growth potential, hence why they are doing what they have planned. I really admire that.
Clubs like St George and Manly are the real jokes. What are they doing? Penrith rely on pokies, but at least have built a COE and have diversified their financial interests over the years, and also have future property development plans. Bulldogs have the backing of a financially strong LC, but otherwise? Wests Tigers? Umm, who knows, besides Ashfield?
It could be said that my club the Eels has been "kissed on the dick" (to coin a Luc Longley phrase) being gifted a shiney new stadium, yet we can only thank the Wanderers for that. It probably wouldn't have happened otherwise, because new stadiums need content, and WSW's provided that.

I also like that PR says it how it is. It is honest, critical comment, although sometimes a little misguided. It's clear that he loves RL and wants the best for the game, yet gets frustrated at the lack of drive and foresight in our sport to develop and further its potential. I quite often feel the same.

 

[taipan]

Probably because pretty much all the most financially successful clubs in the country in all codes are playing in modern stadiums??? Call me old fashioned but facts like that tend to sway my ideas.

They havent because some are still stuck on 1980's busness modelling. And stadiums in this country cost a lot of money and are out of the reach of most clubs self funding. That doesnt mean it shouldnt be an end goal with a strategy to match. It wasnt until clubs in UK were forced to upgrade their stadia that they did, most clubs are worried about winning a cup next season, not thinking ten years down the track about financial sustainability.

Most clubs in NRL are losing money BECAUSE they havent modernised their business and their customer facilities. I can really only think of one club with large crowds in any comp that has financially stuffed it and that is Newcastle and I still scratch my head how they arent financially sound with that fanbase. Every other large drawing club is doing well and some like the big AFL clubs are absolutely rolling in it with their football clubs generating $75mill plus revenue a year and making $6-10mill annual profits. But yeh keep telling yourself crowds dont matter and lets see how you go over the next 5 years.

Have a chat with the Titan's management ,Federal Treasurer.One of the best stadiums going around, an expansion team losing money,I'm sure you can solve their problems.
Wait a minute ,AFL clubs up to last year some were losing money and they played in you beaut centralised stadiums.
A League clubs lose money and they have Melbourne, Suncorp, CC stadiums to assist.Reds using Suncorp losing money,Rebels using AAMI losing money .

Yeah and you keep comparing AFL with NRL clubs.
Shows ignorance of Olympic Class proportions.
SYDNEY IS NOT MELBOURNE

For someone coming from the UK, where RFL clubs are a cluster...,the irony of lecturing people who have been following the code for decades is delicious.

The NRL clubs are not sitting on their a*ses ,because they know doing so would mean their demise.The sooner you realise that the better.

 

[taipan]

Swing low sweet chariot.

 

[taipan]

You could have a Ron Coote in the hotel.

Geez he does get around.

 

[Quicksilver]

There’s more than one way to skin a cat.

I could go to the SFS and spend $30 on a seat and buy a hotdog. Cool.

Or I could go to Cronulla, spend $25 on a ticket then afterwards I could go to the attached Leagues Club for a proper sit down meal, have a few drinks and maybe chuck some money through a pokie.

I could spend $150-$200 on/at the club without even trying.

There isn’t just one formula for success.

Each club has to find its own way to maximise potential.

Cronulla are focusing on their strengths. That is a local ground supported by adjoins facilities- many of which are owned and operated by the club.

It would be a boring league if every club just played out of the same generic stadium with the same generic hotdog stand.

Things like this actually have the potential to provide a unique experience for traveling away fans too.

 

[Perth Red]

Have a chat with the Titan's management ,Federal Treasurer.One of the best stadiums going around, an expansion team losing money,I'm sure you can solve their problems.
Wait a minute ,AFL clubs up to last year some were losing money and they played in you beaut centralised stadiums.
A League clubs lose money and they have Melbourne, Suncorp, CC stadiums to assist.Reds using Suncorp losing money,Rebels using AAMI losing money .

Yeah and you keep comparing AFL with NRL clubs.
Shows ignorance of Olympic Class proportions.
SYDNEY IS NOT MELBOURNE

For someone coming from the UK, where RFL clubs are a cluster...,the irony of lecturing people who have been following the code for decades is delicious.

The NRL clubs are not sitting on their a*ses ,because they know doing so would mean their demise.The sooner you realise that the better.

I didnt say having a modern stadium guarantees success, just that not having one seemingly guarantees less success. I didnt say every team in a modern stadium is financially successful, I said THE MOST financially successful are playing in modern stadiums. There is quite a difference and you seem to have misread my post.

 

[carcharias]

In what universe are footy teams going to make money out of gate takings?

Panthers have the right idea
Sharks are doing the same.

The rest ??

 

[Perth Red]

In what universe are footy teams going to make money out of gate takings?

Panthers have the right idea
Sharks are doing the same.

The rest ??

In the Universe where West Coast eagles make $11.5mill surplus off the back off 80,000 members and 50k crowds which directly brought in $36.8million of fan based revenue.

I know that seems like a different universe to where NRL is at but it is actually in the same country!